Change for change sake... CAP grades apart from what we have now

[Bluelakes 13]

And with all that has been said, and three active threads right now.  No one has written a single word anywhere that I have seen as to what NCO's would actually do in CAP that is different from officers, and how it would enhance and improve the program.

Exactly, right now the only difference between CAP Officers and CAP NCOs is the insignia they wear and who they have to salute.  Their duties are IDENTICAL.  Since the duties are identical, there is no need for a separate NCO Corps.

:clap:

[DrJbdm]

I don't know if we need NCO's or not, but I kinda like the idea. I would like to see a system where our current NCO's can promote.

  What I do see a serious need for is that not everyone in CAP NEEDS to be an Officer. it makes us look foolish to other military members. I think we should have a real selection process and in-resident OCS program.

  I'm all for letting people serve in CAP, but not everyone NEEDS to be an Officer. Let them be Airmen, or maybe just have two additional classes of membership:

Civilian Instructors :  These are the guys who have no desire to be part of the CAP military model but yet still want to serve in CAP.  They wear the Polo Shirt with Khaki slacks. They can serve in any non command billet. (ES: IC is acceptable) These members are lead by the NCO's

Uniformed Instructors: These are the guys who want to be a part of the CAP military system but who have not qualified to be an Officer.  they wear the current CAP military uniforms and can not serve in any command billet. (ES: IC is acceptable) These members are lead by the NCO's

  Officer Canadates: These are the members who have met the educational and other selection criteria and who have been selected to be CAP Officers. They go thru a OCS program that's about a year long that includes two in-resident training encampments where they learn military drill and ceremony and officer leadership.

Officers: These are the members who have completed the OCS program or who where direct commissioned based on being a former or current Military Officer or thru a professional appointment system ie: Doctors, Lawyers, Nurses (R.N.) or P.A's

   Non Commissioned Officers: Use the current system we have in place but make provisions for them to be able to promote.


     Yes, this would be a radical change for CAP but a very good change,  it would take several years to become fully into place.  All current Officers freeze in their current place until they can meet the requirements for promotion on the new Officer promotion system. current SM w/o grade would fall into the uniformed or civilian instructor categories based on their preference.

  Such a system would actually increase recruitment and retention when put into place. CAP Officer grade would actually mean something and our Officers would actually have some credibility when dealing with military members and Officers.

Just an idea, one that I would love to see developed. the ACA does something similar and it seems to work great.

[DNall]

NCOs do more than care for the welfare of their subordinate enlisted folks (ie protect them from officers). They also maintain the standards of the force & mentor the officers appointed over them into competent leaders.

The CCM we had was charged with taking those key elements nation wide, and with a postion (slightly ceremonial & slightly real) meant to build up the NCO corps within CAP.

You can argue if you like that being a useful thing or not.


As to our having NCOs or not... I'm of the strong opinion that we don't all need to be officers. That's completely stupid on any number of levels.

A whole lot of CAP members don't meet the prereqs to be a mil officer, and of those that do, many could never make it (minus the physical element). That shouldn't be a suprise. It's only a very small portion of the population that can make it as a mil officer, and smaller still as they advance in grade. That is as it should be. Not everyone can or should be a leader or manager. Nothing would get done that way, which is pretty much CAP in a nutshell.

We do need officer, but they need to be actually competent & capable as officers on the same kind of high standards expected in the military. We want to walk into a multi-agency response situation, well you need to come with people capable of standing along side those professionals, not a bunch of poorly trained "volunteers" that have a big heart & little else going for them.

We need to bring members in enlisted & have a system by which most stay that way advancing thru an NCO system. Then we need prereqs for officers, with a tough selection process, and even tougher training that takes a good bit more than six months.

We've talked about all this many times in many older threads. Anybody that was around back then knows where I stand on the subject, and those that don't can take advantage of the search button for some good reading from several excellent contributors. All I want to say is I do think CAP is broke in many ways & in need of a major overhaul. Some people would like that & some would be out the door. I could care less. It's all an academic disucssion at this point, unless you feel like electing me president.

[Pylon]

  Officer Canadates: These are the members who have met the educational and other selection criteria and who have been selected to be CAP Officers. They go thru a OCS program that's about a year long that includes two in-resident training encampments where they learn military drill and ceremony and officer leadership.

Haha.  Riiight.

If you required in-residence courses for CAP officers, you wouldn't have any in my unit.  You'd have to be either retired or independently wealthy.  Most people get 2-3 weeks of vacation time from their job, per year, or less.  To have them use it so they can help out their squadron by taking a command position is ludicrous.  You'd have squadrons where there are a handful of willing volunteers, but nobody with the time to jump through the hoops to become commander.  What then?  What would you do with squadrons that couldn't produce any officers under your system?  Shut down successful programs?

What would the residence courses teach that could not be accomplished during weekend in-residence courses, like CLC, SLS, TLC, and UCC?  Or that could not be accomplished by a series of weekend in-residence courses?  Or that could not be accomplished by evening courses on meeting nights?

You need to be realistic.  Unless of course, you've been hiding your knowledge of a source to pay us all and offer us benefits, to boot.

[SarDragon]

I still don't see a good answer to the question - Why does CAP need NCOs?

I spent all but one year of my time in the Navy as an NCO, so I think I have a little credibility in that area.

NCOs get the job done. They are the prime movers in the day-to-day functioning of the military. They provide most of the hands-on work in all but the least technical occupational areas. Much of the tasking assigned to CAP officers in CAPR 20-1 would be done by NCOs in the military, with officer oversight.

In order for the CAP structure to more closely mirror that of the military, there would have to be such a huge overhaul of the system that, IMHO, many current members would be alienated, and possibly leave.

But then again, why do we need to do such a restructuring? What end would it serve? What great improvement(s) would result?

I think improvements in current problem areas would do far more for CAP than reinventing the organization from the ground up. Let's put together a real training program, with trained instructors, instead of the current hodge-podge that exists today. Let's define some realistic standards, and then train to them, and enforce them.

But let's keep this inside a volunteer model, and not that of a paid, contracted military model that I don't see us ever fitting into. Using the structure and guiding principles, as related to the jobs we do, is great, but trying to be military,without all the bits and pieces, isn't going to work for us.

YMMV.

[RogueLeader]

I'm still undecided as whether we need a NCO class of members, but I'll go with the concept.

There is a question that really bugs, and it comes down to the division of duties.  In smaller units, there are staff with numerous slots assigned.  Some that could fall on both sides of the O/NCO line.  At that point, you have a member that doesn't fit into either mold.  What do you do then?  Do you make those members Dual-Shirted, such as Lt Seng- LG overseer or SSG Seng Supply Sergent?

[lordmonar]

No...

For CAP NCO's to really work...they have to have specific duties....I.E. Drill and ceremonies instructions, cadet mentoring, and the such.  The should not also be holding down other staff jobs (at least on paper).  You have to establish a bright line between officer and NCO duties and stick to it.  There should not be a squadron of CAP NCO's out there.....there should be maybe 3-4 NCO's per squadron.

[jimmydeanno]

There should not be a squadron of CAP NCO's out there.....there should be maybe 3-4 NCO's per squadron.

Why would there be so few?  Wouldn't that make most of the members still officers?  If we had 3-4 NCOs in my squadron we'd still have 30 officers and 4? NCOs?  Shouldn't it be the other way around? 

For example, you have:

1: Logistics Officer
    a) Supply NCO
    b) Transportation NCO
    c) Maintenance NCO

2: Deputy Commander for Cadets
    a) Activities NCO
    b) Leadership NCO
    c) Testing NCO

(just examples, not actual positions)

So in reality you'd have maybe 5 officers and 30 NCOs...?

[afgeo4]

No...

For CAP NCO's to really work...they have to have specific duties....I.E. Drill and ceremonies instructions, cadet mentoring, and the such.  The should not also be holding down other staff jobs (at least on paper).  You have to establish a bright line between officer and NCO duties and stick to it.  There should not be a squadron of CAP NCO's out there.....there should be maybe 3-4 NCO's per squadron.

I think you hit the nail on the head there. Cadet programs is ideal for NCO work. While DCCs would remain officers. Leadership and activity slots are line operational, everyday grunt cadet programs work. It's the work done by NCOs in JROTC units. Officers are left to administer and oversee the program. I think many of our members would rather not be "administrators and overseers", so they would "enlist" as NCO's, but for that, we must allow all members to become NCO's. Not just prior/current service. However, members should start out as Airmen, not NCOs. NCO grade should be awarded with TIS (time in service), TIG (time in grade) and PD (professional development) completion. So say... someone having completed 6 months in service as Airman, would become A1C. Plus 1 year, Tech rating and SOS would get you SrA. Add to that 18 months in grade and ECI-13 would get you SSgt. That way NCO's have studied leadership to some degree and have some experience under their belt.

If we implement that, I think USAF ALS, NCOA, and SNCOA should become AFIADL courses that our "enlisted" corps could take via distance learning the same way as officer PME courses are offered to officers.

I also agree with logistics, medical (emts, techs, and paras), legal (paralegal), admin, personnel, ES, and AE being good fits for the job. Job titles would change to say... NCOIC/ES or something. Actually, NCOs could work all non-officer specific slots like unit commander/deputy commander/group officer/wing officer slots. They should also be able to perform in all slots as assistants.

If all that happens, a 1st Sgt may or may not be needed, but I think that decision could fall to the unit CC.

[DNall]

Okay, this is going to seem like drift, but it's not, just follow me for a minute.

PART I (ReOrg)
One big problem with the way CAP is organized is that we're calling everything a Sq, and expecting them to deal with the staff load & reporting reqs of a real mil Sq. In reality, virtually all units are more like a Flight in both size & scope.

I think it'd be tremendously better to reorg with most local units as flights. They could each be more specialized in dif aspects of ES, CP, etc. And, then 3-4 of these flts grouped together as a Sq, which shares resources & staff to cross support everyone. You'd still have Gps where they are now, which would be more like 4-6 Sqs. It's all around a much better span of control, it puts reporting & staff reqs at a level that makes sense. One big thing I like about it is training within a specialty. In a unit right now you slot someone up with an opening, but they need to be mentored up in the specialty by a Sr or pref Master rated officer in the specialty. That's not close to the reality on the ground & I think we suffer a lot for it in our officer development, which translates real badly through the program.

Now linking this back in.... The reason I explain that system is cause under that proven system, NCOs/enlisted make perfect sense, as does a seperate officer corps to manage/lead/support the local operating elements.

PART II (Enlisted/NCO system)
Basic = current level I plus more (highspeed low stress) orientation on DnC/CnC/uniform. Enlisted advancement based roughly on AF standards/timeframes juxtaposed with CAP mission/operational/specialty requirements.

PART III (1Sgt)
We discussed a 1Sgt system under this concept. That was to be an adult version of CAC. As in a way for advice from & support reqs to the field to make it directly to the decision making echelons w/o as much of the power protecting idiotic politics we currently have to deal with.

PART IV (OTS)
Defining this theoretical NCO/enlisted corps requires answering what we're talking about on the officer side. That's been done in detail several months back, so I'll just toss out the quick brief that there was some consensus on.

The concept was to produce high quality leaders/managers that could operate on par with the mil grade they're wearing. EX- Take CAP to a joint ICS disaster op, our LtCol should be able to stand on par with a NG LtCol. They should be able to take charge of a task force or whatever and lead on the level expected of a LtCol. That's what we need in ES & in our program as a whole. If that were the case, grade would be meaningful by default.

OTS would be roughly based in format on the ARNG OCS program (similiar to what ACA does but w/o the AT). The delivery would be: local over online/CD based modules (just like AF SOS is now); in conjunction with a local (maybe not Sq, but close by) OJT officer mentor; and a Wg level specialty branch manager to oversee specialty training & development. This would all happen over a min one year period, done at member's pace up to three years max. The time req to do it in one year would be no more than regular wkly mtg attendance & one wknd per quarter.

The curriculum would be based on AF OTS, combined with the good parts of AFIADL 13 & the AF's ASBC (officer basic course). Basically, it'd be roughly the same standards as AFRes/ANG 2Lt minus about 10-20% & minus the pysical element.

Logistically, they'd all come in enlisted. Then could apply for OTS after basic (level I), or at any point later in their career. Involves meeting some prereqs. We debated those a whole lot, but basically we were looking at 21 & some education in the range of 60hrs/AA or waivers for equiv level applicable trng (inst pilot, comm, IT, EMT-I, FF, etc). Meet mins, apply, get boarded w/ State director or designated (ret AF field grade) input on the board, complete trng 1-3 yrs, board for appointment. As I recall, we were willing to allow under 21 to enter trng, but had to be 21 to appoint.

PART V (Officer/enlisted progression)
Progression as an officer would be based on same timeframes as AF & follow roughly the same PME & board reqs. Obviously, all juxtaposed w/ CAP specific trng.

Enlisted progression would also follow AF timframes & trng profiles. On this side though the AFIADL trng tends to deal with a lot that we can't use, so CAP would have to interject a lot more. Same deal though with career field mgrs at Wg or higher, selection boards, Sr raters, etc.

PART VI (why talk about this?)
This is all pretty academic obviously - unless some genius figure out how to make me president, then standby for a couple exec orders.    Seriously though, I think there's some value in discussing a concept of what CAP could be if it wanted to. I thin kit helps us identify problems with the way things work now & to target local efforts on addressing those issues.

[mikeylikey]

I still don't see a good answer to the question - Why does CAP need NCOs?

The organization does not have a need for NCO's.  Sorry to burst everyone's bubbles!  

What exactly would it accomplish?  Nothing.  The NCO's currently serving in CAP (and I know a few who are terrific people) can be doing the same thing as a CAP Officer.  

I think wanting NCO's has something to do with that old saying "I'm not an Officer, I work for a living".  I always hated that when I heard an NCO say it, and I loose some respect for the individual.  

I am a firm believer that we should get rid of CAP NCO's, and any prior service/ current military NCO should be given CAP Officer Rank.  

I just can't believe the posts that say CAP NCO's can get more done, know more about drill/ceremony and are "better" than a CAP Officer.  Sure, the NCO went through a basic training, and technical school, and most likely has a few PME courses under their belt, but that does not necessarily equate to being more educated in military matters.  

[Ned]

Sure, the NCO went through a basic training, and technical school, and most likely has a few PME courses under their belt, but that does not necessarily equate to being more educated in military matters.  

As compared, say, to a CAP 2nd or 1st Lieutenant with a couple of weekend trainings under her belt and some on-line courses?

Or even a CAP Major who has had the benefit of a whole week of Region Staff College?

Sorry, sir, but by definition even a humble CAP SSgt has far more "education in military matters" than any non-prior service CAP officer will ever have.

The real question is:  how should we best employ their knowledge and skills.

Ned Lee
Retired Army Guy

[mikeylikey]

Sure, the NCO went through a basic training, and technical school, and most likely has a few PME courses under their belt, but that does not necessarily equate to being more educated in military matters.  

As compared, say, to a CAP 2nd or 1st Lieutenant with a couple of weekend trainings under her belt and some on-line courses?

Or even a CAP Major who has had the benefit of a whole week of Region Staff College?

Sorry, sir, but by definition even a humble CAP SSgt has far more "education in military matters" than any non-prior service CAP officer will ever have.

The real question is:  how should we best employ their knowledge and skills.

Ned Lee
Retired Army Guy

Sorry, I was thinking prior-service (that whole one-track mindset thing).  You are right though.  However, why keep the stripes?  Why not make them a CAP Officer?  If you keep NCO's, what about Warrant Officer?  We should create CAP Warrant Officers.  Fair, is fair!

[RogueLeader]

OK, I could buy into that.

However, not all wings have groups, Iowa never did, and OK just doesn't have the necessary manpower to support groups + that the works was being done right at the Squadrons.  In the perfect world, DNall, that would be a great way to do things.  In fact it's not too different from my "super squadrons" that I suggested for getting better training.

I just want this to work. 

For example, you have:

1: Logistics Officer
    a) Supply NCO
    b) Transportation NCO
    c) Maintenance NCO

Concur

2: Deputy Commander for Cadets
    a) Activities NCO
    b) Leadership NCO
    c) Testing NCO

Actually, Testing NCO- if following functional address, as well as Spec Track pamphlets,  Testing NCO would fall under the PDO.  I like the idea, and it would have to be very specific as to where each job falls, for the proper control.

[Capt_Redfox30]

Could someone tell me where in the regulations the NCO duties are listed I have been watching this forum for awhile now and have to say that I have not meet a CAP NCO in my almost 9 Years in the program.  I was just wondering how big of a program it was, because it sounds like its bigger than I thought.  Just was wondering about the details of it.  Thanks.

[DNall]

OK, I could buy into that.

However, not all wings have groups, Iowa never did, and OK just doesn't have the necessary manpower to support groups + that the works was being done right at the Squadrons. 

Yeah I get that, and this is where you may REALLY not like what my answer is.

I understand why we're org'd on states & that has to stay that way, but they don't all need to be Wgs. The ANG (or ARNG) doesn't org that way, why do you think that is? What I'd do is... really small units are NCO led Dets reporting to a Flt or direct to a Sq. Flt is 20-45 or so & only needs one officer. Sq runs 100-180 kind of range give or take, and that needs 2-3 line & a half dozen staff officers max. Gp then takes 2-5 or so Sqs.

In that system you can see most states would revert to a Gp, which is appropriate for their membership size & resource level (span of control/authority). That CC would still have the same equal vote on the NB, and I don't frankly care if they're a LtCol or Col in that slot.

We can do away with regions as they currently exist though. They would be reorg as Wgs to which all the Gp level states report.

Here's bigger par tof that reorg though... Sq/Gp/Wg CCs all become corp officers. Gp CCs make the NB, Wg CCs make NEC.

I'm not really tied down to any of this, just thinking outloud.

Again, not trying to drift completely to another topic. It's just that NCOs make more sense in a system that makes sense & I'm trying to brainstorm out what that would look like.

[mikeylikey]

^ Some Wings should be a SQD or Flight. 

[DNall]

We have a conversion chart for WO to officer grades. I've never seena complaint about that & I know lots of former CWOs in CAP.

Why do we NEED NCOs in CAP versus forcing them to officer grade? We don't, but why do we NEED to use officer grade rather than have everyone be enlisted? Or why do we even need grade for that matter?

I'm a strong believer in the military side of the program, you all know that, but CAP in the current encarnation is unfortunately not a military program or even military based. It's a bunch of civilians running around with really big hearts but almost no legitimate trng & begging to do things they aren't remotely qual'd (at least thru us) or for that matter allowed to do. To a great extent, it's a big waste of time & taxpayer money in my opinion. That's not syaing it should be shut down. It has enormous potential to become something really great, and on the street/indiv level (especially with cadets) it does accomplish some really great & rewarding things.

All I'm trying to say is if you're going to get into a discussion about grade in CAP, & NCOs in particular, you have to look at a total revamp of the program, cause that's the only thing that makes any kind of sense. 

[RogueLeader]

From what I've seen, that would probably work, with the exception of finding staff for each echelon.  That is the point where most of this talk starts to putter out.  In OKWG there is a hard enough time getting staff for Wing and Squadrons.  I'm the Admin. Personnel, Pro. Dev, Logistics, Supply,Alt- Testing, and it looks like I'm about to be MLO, and Transportation.  I'm sure that there are many other places that are in the same situation.

BTW, I don't think that changing the names from Squadrons to flights or Detachments does anything  to help.  But I do like the idea.

[Pylon]

Could someone tell me where in the regulations the NCO duties are listed I have been watching this forum for awhile now and have to say that I have not meet a CAP NCO in my almost 9 Years in the program.  I was just wondering how big of a program it was, because it sounds like its bigger than I thought.  Just was wondering about the details of it.  Thanks.

There are no NCO-specific "jobs" for NCOs in CAP.  A CAP NCO could serve doing testing, leadership, personnel, or any number of jobs just the same as the CAP officer in your squadron.  No job duties are different.  The only thing that changes is who salutes whom.

It is not a particularly huge group of members.  We don't have any CAP NCOs in our squadron (though we do have Guard & AD NCOs as members), we don't have any CAP NCOs in our Group (even though our Group Commander is a Guard NCO).  I've only met one CAP NCO in my 10 years in New York Wing, and he ultimately switched to the officer track and became a Lt Col.