Hey look, CAPP 151 is finally getting an update!

[mikeylikey]

"We salute the rank, not the man." Yea I know, if you take the time to analyze the quote, it's actually bad in a way, but it still explains my point.

Not a bad quote.  It is precisely correct.  Saluting rank is a military foundation.  "The people will change but Rank lasts forever".

^ How is that for a bad quote.  I just made it up.   

[captrncap]

You are misinformed on CAPs definition of rank.  From L2KAB: SE Chapter 1.  Rank is ones seniority within a given grade based on date of grade.

This is from TITLE 10 > Subtitle A > PART I > CHAPTER 5 > § 152

(c) Grade and Rank.— The Chairman [JSF], while so serving, holds the grade of general or, in the case of an officer of the Navy, admiral and outranks all other officers of the armed forces. However, he may not exercise military command over the Joint Chiefs of Staff or any of the armed forces.

So if your logic is the true then he really does outrank everyone since he may have others who made general before him...

CAP is a different animal since you can have a 1st Lt as Encampment Commander with Lt Col as staff. So by position he outranks them. The Real Military would never have that....

[AlphaSigOU]

Now if they'd add the time-honored bit of military etiquette:

"A senior calls attention to a problem; a junior only invites attention."

[jimmydeanno]

Perhaps appeasing those that don't want the AF association with CAP??

This is written for new people to CAP who don't understand military C&C or want a place to point people so they can say that C&C is a part of CAP culture.

AUDIENCE
1. New seniors who have limited military background, especially those who want to lead cadets (ie:
a mom drafted as unit commander, a School Program teacher)
2. Seasoned members looking for authoritative guidance on customs and courtesies-related topics
3. Cadets (but it's assumed that cadets will consult the cadet textbooks first)

It intentionally tries not to be authoritative, but rather a guide as a pamphlet should be and intentionally doesn't try to cover all possible situations some people look for; (ie: If I am standing on the border of the US and Canada but wearing the new corporate uniform in the back of a covered truck and the Mexican national anthem is played and I'm not wearing a cover, what do I do.)

LINKY

[EDIT]

I don't like the overuse of the phrase   "Air Force-Style customs and courtesies".  They are Air Force Customs and Courtesies, why couldn't they just say that.  Perhaps appeasing those that don't want the AF association with CAP??

Could also be interpreted as reminder that we don't follow Navy customs and courtesies...
[/edit]

[brenaud]

I like the fact that it defines military style uniforms (everything except blazer and polo shirt). 

The current guidance (as I interpret it) suggests "military style" does not include CAP distinctive uniforms (if this wasn't the case, why would the change letter requiring the flight cap for the white shirt/blue slacks specifically mention members should observe customs and courtesies in that uniform?).

As has been mentioned in other threads, the general rule is 'no hat, no salute'.  The change to 151 would extend saluting to some 'no hat' uniforms (white/gray and utility uniform, for example).  While this would appear a little out of the ordinary to some, I think it would provide a more uniform image to the public--members that are in uniforms with grade 'obviously' displayed are doing the same thing.  (I don't include the blazer nameplate as 'obviously displayed' since it's much more difficult to see due to its size and location.)  And, as others have said, I wouldn't mind appropriate headgear being required for those uniforms as well.

[mikeylikey]

^ I do believe I just saw on MSNBC that there is a new law being pushed through the house that would allow military members not in uniform to salute, return salutes, and veterans not in any uniform to do the same thing.  Did anyone else see or hear about this?

I was always the believer that even in civilian clothes you should still salute.  I salute Officers when walking into the PX/BX when not in uniform, or when I come across them at the gas station.  The AF SF's salute me when I drive through the gate not in uniform, and I return it.  Just because your not in uniform, common courtesy should not stop. 

The customs and courtesies should extend to all CAP uniforms, and civilian attire when doing anything CAP related.  As far as no hat, no salute......I don't think so.  Thats the lazy way out.

[brenaud]

^ I do believe I just saw on MSNBC that there is a new law being pushed through the house that would allow military members not in uniform to salute, return salutes, and veterans not in any uniform to do the same thing.  Did anyone else see or hear about this?

I was always the believer that even in civilian clothes you should still salute.  I salute Officers when walking into the PX/BX when not in uniform, or when I come across them at the gas station.  The AF SF's salute me when I drive through the gate not in uniform, and I return it.  Just because your not in uniform, common courtesy should not stop. 

The customs and courtesies should extend to all CAP uniforms, and civilian attire when doing anything CAP related.  As far as no hat, no salute......I don't think so.  Thats the lazy way out.

I seem to remember hearing about a law authorizing current military members and veterans to salute the Flag in civilian attire.  Not sure if it extends beyond that.  I'll see if I can find a link.

The current P151 summarizes your other comments...it is never inappropriate to salute another individual.  I agree.  The reason I like the new P151 is that it extends the expectation to members in non-USAF uniforms.  It's not authorizing anything new, it's simply adding the expectation for members in the CAP distinctive uniforms observe those customs & courtesies.  (As well as following C&Cs rendered to the Flag).

[mikeylikey]

Understood.  I misread the post Sorry!  It's getting way late 

[Dragoon]

Two kinda weird things

"For senior members, the rendering of customs and
courtesies is optional, but is expected when wearing a military-style
uniform (all uniform combinations except the polo shirt and blazer). "

The way this is worded, I never have to salute, even in USAF style uniform.  It may be "expected" but it isn't required.

This may be what they mean.  But if they really mean

"For senior members the rendering of customs and courtesies is required when wearing military-style uniform (all uniform combinations except the polo shirt and blazer).  They are optional in non-military style uniforms."

Also, mentioning the calling of the room to attention for a senior officer.  To begin with, I very seldom, if ever, see this done in a room full of officers in the real military.  You stand for a senior officer, of course, but I don't see officers calling officers to attention all that often.  That' s more of an NCO/EM thing. 

They then muddy the waters by discussing standing by announcing "Gentlemen, the Commander."  What if the commander isn't the ranking guy?  (common in CAP)

As worded right now, if I, a lowly squadron ES officer and CAP 05, am late to a squadron staff meeting, the entire room, including the squadron commander, gets called to attention when I enter (late).  I'm not sure this is what we want to have happen.  An ego boost for me, sure, but the attention needs to be on the commander, not on some flunky.

[mikeylikey]

Also, mentioning the calling of the room to attention for a senior officer.  To begin with, I very seldom, if ever, see this done in a room full of officers in the real military.  You stand for a senior officer, of course, but I don't see officers calling officers to attention all that often.  That' s more of an NCO/EM thing.

Really?  I see it all the time. 

They then muddy the waters by discussing standing by announcing "Gentlemen, the Commander."  What if the commander isn't the ranking guy?  (common in CAP)

I think they were trying to convey the respect shown to the position.  I doubt you would do this if the Commander is a 1st LT, and is walking into a room full of Lt Col's.  (however it can still be done, but those Lt Col's would not be required to stand)  In the Army (and AF I believe) When the Battalion Commander (SQD Commander?) walks into a room, the standard call would be "The Battalion Commander" and everyone would stand.  I know at the end of the duty day the informal practice of calling the departure of the Battalion or Company Commander by the First Sergent is commonly practiced as well.

[jimmydeanno]

Two kinda weird things

"For senior members, the rendering of customs and
courtesies is optional, but is expected when wearing a military-style
uniform (all uniform combinations except the polo shirt and blazer). "

The way this is worded, I never have to salute, even in USAF style uniform.  It may be "expected" but it isn't required.

This may be what they mean.  But if they really mean

"For senior members the rendering of customs and courtesies is required when wearing military-style uniform (all uniform combinations except the polo shirt and blazer).  They are optional in non-military style uniforms."

The pamphlet wasn't written to be regulatory, that's why it isn't a CAPR.  So the statement was written that way on purpose. 

I wouldn't even say that you were 'required' to do C&C in a military-style uniform, however tradition (custom) and common politeness(courtesy) dictate that you really should be (expected) executing these types of things.  The pamphlet just set the expectation that members practice C&C.  What you do/how you react to those who do not meet expectations is up to you.

The line about (except for polo and blazer) removes the confusion from the previous pamphlet as to what is considered a military-style uniform and clarifies if someone wearing the polo would typically salute or return salutes, etc.

[Dragoon]

Also, mentioning the calling of the room to attention for a senior officer.  To begin with, I very seldom, if ever, see this done in a room full of officers in the real military.  You stand for a senior officer, of course, but I don't see officers calling officers to attention all that often.  That' s more of an NCO/EM thing.

Really?  I see it all the time. 

I don't doubt you.  But in 22 years of active service, the only time I've seen an officer call a room of officers to attention was in a TOC.  And then only for the commander.  (and come to think of it, there were a couple of NCOs present.)

Now, in mixed company (EM and Officer), the NCOs do it all the time, because EMs are used to being called to attendion.    But not when it's purely officer.  We either just stand up, or someone announced the VIP entering and then we stand up.  No D&C commands.

As a former CAP cadet who didn't know better, I once made the mistake of calling the room to attention for the S3 (he outranked everyone in the room).  He looked at me real funny. 

[Dragoon]

I wouldn't even say that you were 'required' to do C&C in a military-style uniform, however tradition (custom) and common politeness(courtesy) dictate that you really should be (expected) executing these types of things.  The pamphlet just set the expectation that members practice C&C.  What you do/how you react to those who do not meet expectations is up to you.

I guess I rail against this "do it if you want to" culture. 

Effectively, this pamphlet, as writen, makes it clear that we can decide only to salute officers whom we respect, and ignore the rest.

I don't think that's a good underpinning for a supposed military culture.

[jimmydeanno]

I wouldn't even say that you were 'required' to do C&C in a military-style uniform, however tradition (custom) and common politeness(courtesy) dictate that you really should be (expected) executing these types of things.  The pamphlet just set the expectation that members practice C&C.  What you do/how you react to those who do not meet expectations is up to you.

I guess I rail against this "do it if you want to" culture. 

Effectively, this pamphlet, as writen, makes it clear that we can decide only to salute officers whom we respect, and ignore the rest.

I don't think that's a good underpinning for a supposed military culture.

If your boss tells you that it is 'expected' you to show up for work on time and you don't, what happens?  There are typically consequences. 

If you tell your child that you 'expect' that their room be clean by the time you get home and it isn't, don't they get punished?

If you tell your Cadet Commander that you 'expect' to have a meeting schedule on time - what do you do if they don't.

My point is that just because something doesn't say "You are required to..." doesn't mean people will say "well, I choose not to..."  What you do should someone not meet those 'expectations' is the same as what you do if someone doesn't do something they're 'required' to...

[Dragoon]

If your boss tells you that it is 'expected' you to show up for work on time and you don't, what happens?  There are typically consequences. 

Sure, you get fired.  Because showing up on time isn't an "expectation" it's a requirement. 

CAPP 151, with the new wording, makes it clear that customs and courtesies are not a requirement - merely an expectation.

If you tell your child that you 'expect' that their room be clean by the time you get home and it isn't, don't they get punished?

That's because you actually gave them an order. 

That's totally different from some nebulous "it is expected..."  the pamphlet doesn't doesn't even specify WHO expects it.  It's written in passive voice - which I learned as a 2LT is a really bad thing to do.  It gives people wiggle room to totally ignore you.

If you tell your Cadet Commander that you 'expect' to have a meeting schedule on time - what do you do if they don't.

Again, that's really an order, not an expectation, regardless of your word choice.

My point is that just because something doesn't say "You are required to..." doesn't mean people will say "well, I choose not to..."  What you do should someone not meet those 'expectations' is the same as what you do if someone doesn't do something they're 'required' to...

There's no doubt that the guy who chooses not to salute his Wing CC is unlikely to appointed to a Wing Director job, or have his promotion approved quickly.

But many of our members, frankly, don't care about that. They just wanna fly, or teach cadets, or be a PAO or whatever.   And now we've made it clear that as long as they understand they may lose out on Senior Member of the Year, they can totally ignore military customs and courtesies.  Because we've made it clear that these things are not a requirement.

I think this is a very bad call.  And could easily be corrected by changing the wording.  If it's a requirement, SAY SO.  No need to be mealy mouthed about it.

[SamFranklin]

I think this is a very bad call.  And could easily be corrected by changing the wording.  If it's a requirement, SAY SO.  No need to be mealy mouthed about it.

You're seeing the world too legalistically. They are "customs" and "courtesies," not "requirements."  If you buy-in to the Core Value of Respect, they'll come naturally.

[SarDragon]

Well, I kinda see his point. We have way too many folks who play the rules against each other, or to their own advantage, with little regard for the big picture.

[Gunner C]

I wouldn't even say that you were 'required' to do C&C in a military-style uniform, however tradition (custom) and common politeness(courtesy) dictate that you really should be (expected) executing these types of things.  The pamphlet just set the expectation that members practice C&C.  What you do/how you react to those who do not meet expectations is up to you.

I guess I rail against this "do it if you want to" culture. 

I completely agree.  We either have requirements or not.  Suggestions usually get ignored.

You're seeing the world too legalistically. They are "customs" and "courtesies," not "requirements."  If you buy-in to the Core Value of Respect, they'll come naturally.

Balderdash! If something isn't important enough to make a requirement, then it will never be done.  Are we or are we not a paramilitary organization?  If not, then let's get rid of all this uniform/rank/courtesies junk and just have Saturday weenie roasts!  For heavens sake, doesn't tradition mean anything to anyone?  Doesn't anyone want to be part of something that has high standards of integrity, etiquette, and service?

GC

[Dragoon]

I think you guys are getting it.

When you hang around CAP enough, you learn there are only two kinds of directives

1.  Mandatory ones, which about 70% of the active membership follows.

2.  Optional ones, which are pretty much blown off by 90% of our folks.

If we want it to happen, we need to mandate it.

[jimmydeanno]

Not to sound crass, but to this day I have yet to find any military publication that mandates saluting or other type of custom or courtesy.  The only reference I have ever found was in the AF Professional Development Guide (AFPAM 36-2241 Chapter 8).  It is essentially the old version of P151. 

Can ANYONE point me to a current military regulation that says: "saluting is required?"