Civil Air Patrol Reserve

[RiverAux]

Here is a piece of trivia for you: 

Back in November 2005 there was only one unit in the country called a "Reserve" Squadron, the "Chicago Reserve Composite Squadron" in Illinois.  Since then we now have 4 wings that have renamed their 000 unit from Headquarters Squadron to Reserve Squadron (Indiana, Iowa, Washington, and Ohio), also we now have NHQ-995 the "National Commander's Reserve Unit".

The National Commander's Reserve Unit was first to use it in early 2006.  Then, Iowa adopted it in November 2006, Washington in December 2006, Ohio in January 2007 and Indiana sometime since then.  Info from CAPWATCH database downloads I've made every months since Nov 2005.

[Eclipse]

The name has nothing to do with the use of one or more units as holding units for semi-active members who can't or don't want to be members of a squadron.

Capwatch isn't going to show you that. 

And members in 000 cannot participate in ES or similar activities as these units do not have proper command structures, nor are they subject to SUI or FM rules.  They are literally holding units for inactive members.

[Eclipse]

Just because some wings operate at the squadron level....not all do nor do they have to.

I stand by the statement that the only operational echelon in CAP, by design,  is the local squadron. 

Groups and the Wing are supposed to be there to insure that the units have the resources they need and are meeting spec for their missions.

The unfortunate reality that our current manpower and number of units requires that most ES response is a coordinated effort from all over the region doesn't change that, nor does Iowa's model.

I'm speaking, of course, blue-sky, and regardless it doesn't mean that members can't and don't regularly do triple duty at three different echelons.

But they shouldn't have to.   If the proper training and activities are happening at the squadrons, then the groups and wing can concentrate on larger exercises and resource coordination.

If wing-level staff are doing wing-sponsored "Intro to ES", not because they want to, but because they have to or no one else will, the question has to be asked: 

When are they doing what they are supposed to be doing, and in turn, what are the units doing with their time?

[lordmonar]

Just because some wings operate at the squadron level....not all do nor do they have to.

I stand by the statement that the only operational echelon in CAP, by design,  is the local squadron. 

Are you telling me you have squadrons out there with enough personnel to fly all the assigned aircraft, field ground teams and man a full up mission base?

If so cool!  But I am in a 100 member strong unit and we don't have enough people to that!

Groups and the Wing are supposed to be there to insure that the units have the resources they need and are meeting spec for their missions.

Right....

The unfortunate reality that our current manpower and number of units requires that most ES response is a coordinated effort from all over the region doesn't change that, nor does Iowa's model.

Where there you go.....if the mission is being coordinated at levels higher then the unit....it is by definition the operational level for large ES missions.

But they shouldn't have to.   If the proper training and activities are happening at the squadrons, then the groups and wing can concentrate on larger exercises and resource coordination.

If each and every one of your units were 100+ maybe....but reality is that most units have 50 on the books with maybe 20 active. (this is just a SWAG on my part)

If wing-level staff are doing wing-sponsored "Intro to ES", not because they want to, but because they have to or no one else will, the question has to be asked: 

When are they doing what they are supposed to be doing, and in turn, what are the units doing with their time?

Well the answer is the best that they can with the manpower they have.  We know for a fact that we have a recruiting problem.

Iowa took a look at the problem and they found that centralized training and operations worked for them.  ILWG may be different....I know that the Iowa plan would not work here in Nevada and most large wings.....but the simple fact is....most squadrons cannot organically run and maintain large operations.

Ergo they are being planed and executed at the wing/group level with unit either providing bodies for the manpower pool or sorting single assets for the mission.

[Eclipse]

Are you telling me you have squadrons out there with enough personnel to fly all the assigned aircraft, field ground teams and man a full up mission base?

Yes, though the IC and AOBD have to come from group.

...if the mission is being coordinated at levels higher then the unit....it is by definition the operational level for large ES missions.

Large-scale SAREx's and similar activities such as encampments are >supposed< to be coordinated at the group or wing level.   A SAREx is not the environment for low-level training - that is the squadron's job.
SAREx's are supposed to be places where you execute on the training you already have, and hone your skills.

I've seen wing-level exercises where 8 planes sit on the flight line while pilots get tasks signed off, this is not how its supposed to work, and it is what propagates the lack of urgency in our real-world missions.

Iowa took a look at the problem and they found that centralized training and operations worked for them.  ILWG may be different....I know that the Iowa plan would not work here in Nevada and most large wings.....but the simple fact is....most squadrons cannot organically run and maintain large operations.

This is correct, but IAWG's model doesn't really fit CAP's design (which doesn't mean it doesn't work), as they indicate themselves, IAWG is functioning essentially as a single squadron, which is why I keep saying it can't be used as a model for larger wings or in the reserve argument.  With only one unit, the amount of staff they need is probably 1/6th what IL has, and their ability to force everyone into UTA weekends makes it much simpler to short-hand the administrivia.

...and we're also drifting here from the reserve discussion...

[RiverAux]

Yep, a little bit of drift. 

[Dragoon]

It seems to me that the lowest operational unit of CAP is actually the Wing, at least for ES. 

Only the Wing has a Corporate Officer who can set up agreements with outside agencies.
Only the Wing appoints ICs.
ICs, when operational, are the representative of the Wing CC, not the squadron CC.
AFRCC calls down a Wing alert roster for missions.  They don't call squadrons.
USAF inspects Wing ES ops at SAREVALS, and gives the Wing, not the squadrons, a rating.
Squadron Commanders have no command authority during ES ops at all.  It flows from the Wing CC to the ICS staff, led by a guy he appoints.


On the CP side it's different - Squadrons do most of the work.  Wing just coordinates and runs the occasional big activity.

[Eclipse]

Sadly, I can't disagree, but I believe that is because of evolution, not design.

When you go back a few decades you see units acting fairly autonomously, at least interms of "team deployment".

Unless we double or triple are numbers we'll never get back there.

My argument isn't that the majority of operations aren't >coordinated< at the wing level, it is that the operational echelon is >supposed< to be the unit, at least from a training and preparation standpoint.

The majority of training and tasking is certified by the squadon commander, even in those states where wing staff rubber stamps the activity.

I still say that if the only ES training is happening at the wing level (IAWG not withstanding), the pyramid is upside down.

[Dragoon]

Got it - you're talking "should" not "is." 

And there is a difference between training and operational independance.  You're right - the model is for individuals (aircrew, GT, MRO, but not really staff) to be trained at Squadron and utilitized at Wing.

[JayT]

Sadly, I can't disagree, but I believe that is because of evolution, not design.

When you go back a few decades you see units acting fairly autonomously, at least interms of "team deployment".

Unless we double or triple are numbers we'll never get back there.

My argument isn't that the majority of operations aren't >coordinated< at the wing level, it is that the operational echelon is >supposed< to be the unit, at least from a training and preparation standpoint.

The majority of training and tasking is certified by the squadon commander, even in those states where wing staff rubber stamps the activity.

I still say that if the only ES training is happening at the wing level (IAWG not withstanding), the pyramid is upside down.

Sir, what wing are you?

[ZigZag911]

Wings, groups and squadrons are considered "operational" units by CAP.

Regions are not "operational", but rather "supervisory & administrative" -- for now.

Scuttlebutt is that the regions are about to become "operational" HQs in the near future.

[lordmonar]

Makes sense to me.....the GA-9's are regional assets...not Wing.  The Fossett search proved that adjacent wings do not always operate well together....heck even neighboring squadrons do not work and play well with others sometimes. 

[afgeo4]

Wings, groups and squadrons are considered "operational" units by CAP.

Regions are not "operational", but rather "supervisory & administrative" -- for now.

Scuttlebutt is that the regions are about to become "operational" HQs in the near future.

What regulation is that delineation made in?

I was under the impression that the only operational units in CAP were squadrons and flights while Groups and above were all supervisory/administrative.

Why was I under that impression? Because it is squadrons/flights that are tasked with training personnel and it is squadrons/flights that employ members who are not staff officers, but rather line officers (you know, the ones that do the operating and not supervising/administration). Neither Groups nor Wings do that. They are there to support Squadrons in accomplishing the mission.

[afgeo4]

Sadly, I can't disagree, but I believe that is because of evolution, not design.

When you go back a few decades you see units acting fairly autonomously, at least interms of "team deployment".

Unless we double or triple are numbers we'll never get back there.

My argument isn't that the majority of operations aren't >coordinated< at the wing level, it is that the operational echelon is >supposed< to be the unit, at least from a training and preparation standpoint.

The majority of training and tasking is certified by the squadon commander, even in those states where wing staff rubber stamps the activity.

I still say that if the only ES training is happening at the wing level (IAWG not withstanding), the pyramid is upside down.

Eclipse... don't confuse ES training with ES training support.  Wings make training possible. Training happens at individual level at CAP. We do it whenever we're free with whomever we like (as long as they can sign us off).

The Wing doesn't have to be involved in anyone's training at any time. They help organize and pay for training and evaluation sessions. Any squadron with a good train the trainer program can handle all the ES training in house. All they'd need from Wing would be an occasional training mission number to place onto the SQTR and to reimburse aircraft/vehicle fuel costs.

[RiverAux]

Except for perhaps an ELT mission or perhaps ground SAR a squadron is not an operational unit in CAP because it only has 1 airplane.  Any major mission is going to require multiple airplanes.  Maybe back at the dawn of time a CAP squadron had enough planes to do a major search on its own, but I doubt it. 

[Eclipse]

Sadly, I can't disagree, but I believe that is because of evolution, not design.

When you go back a few decades you see units acting fairly autonomously, at least interms of "team deployment".

Unless we double or triple are numbers we'll never get back there.

My argument isn't that the majority of operations aren't >coordinated< at the wing level, it is that the operational echelon is >supposed< to be the unit, at least from a training and preparation standpoint.

The majority of training and tasking is certified by the squadon commander, even in those states where wing staff rubber stamps the activity.

I still say that if the only ES training is happening at the wing level (IAWG not withstanding), the pyramid is upside down.

Eclipse... don't confuse ES training with ES training support.  Wings make training possible. Training happens at individual level at CAP. We do it whenever we're free with whomever we like (as long as they can sign us off).

The Wing doesn't have to be involved in anyone's training at any time. They help organize and pay for training and evaluation sessions. Any squadron with a good train the trainer program can handle all the ES training in house. All they'd need from Wing would be an occasional training mission number to place onto the SQTR and to reimburse aircraft/vehicle fuel costs.

Um, that's precisely what I said...

[afgeo4]

Sadly, I can't disagree, but I believe that is because of evolution, not design.

When you go back a few decades you see units acting fairly autonomously, at least interms of "team deployment".

Unless we double or triple are numbers we'll never get back there.

My argument isn't that the majority of operations aren't >coordinated< at the wing level, it is that the operational echelon is >supposed< to be the unit, at least from a training and preparation standpoint.

The majority of training and tasking is certified by the squadon commander, even in those states where wing staff rubber stamps the activity.

I still say that if the only ES training is happening at the wing level (IAWG not withstanding), the pyramid is upside down.

Eclipse... don't confuse ES training with ES training support.  Wings make training possible. Training happens at individual level at CAP. We do it whenever we're free with whomever we like (as long as they can sign us off).

The Wing doesn't have to be involved in anyone's training at any time. They help organize and pay for training and evaluation sessions. Any squadron with a good train the trainer program can handle all the ES training in house. All they'd need from Wing would be an occasional training mission number to place onto the SQTR and to reimburse aircraft/vehicle fuel costs.

Um, that's precisely what I said...

What I meant was... Wing isn't an operational unit. It is strictly a support unit. The actual training happens at or below squadron level (i.e. individual level). Wing simply provides organization and funding.

[afgeo4]

Except for perhaps an ELT mission or perhaps ground SAR a squadron is not an operational unit in CAP because it only has 1 airplane.  Any major mission is going to require multiple airplanes.  Maybe back at the dawn of time a CAP squadron had enough planes to do a major search on its own, but I doubt it. 

River... I don't think you're quite grasping the term "Operational" and "Organizational".

Operational means where personnel to run the operation actually come from. As in which unit supplies pilots, ground team members, incident commanders, etc.

Organizational means which unit allows for funding for operational units to flow. Which unit makes sure all legal and paper work issues are worked out so that the operational unit can perform the training and missions.

It doesn't matter who owns aircraft. What matters is who flies them. Aircraft are not owned by Wing anyway. They are owned by Civil Air Patrol, the corporation and that corporation has the right to move aircraft from one wing to another at will. Same for vehicles. The only thing that matters is who does the actual work. Who trains cadets. Who goes out to teach aerospace. Who goes out to shut down ELTs and find missing people. That's who operational people are.

[RiverAux]

And most likely on your typical ELT mission it will probably be led by an Incident Commander from another squadron and in some places, they will probably actually be assigned to Group or Wing staff.  Missions are almost never "assigned" to squadrons for that very reason. 

CAP operates with task forces made up for each individual mission that draw personnel from multiple layers within the organization, but when it gets right down to it, the AFRCC activates the Wing and the Wing decides who within the organization prosecutes the mission. 

[afgeo4]

And most likely on your typical ELT mission it will probably be led by an Incident Commander from another squadron and in some places, they will probably actually be assigned to Group or Wing staff.  Missions are almost never "assigned" to squadrons for that very reason. 

CAP operates with task forces made up for each individual mission that draw personnel from multiple layers within the organization, but when it gets right down to it, the AFRCC activates the Wing and the Wing decides who within the organization prosecutes the mission. 

Missions aren't assigned to Wings or Regions either. They are assigned to Civil Air Patrol. They are then tasked down from NHQ to the geographically appropriate subordinate unit. In a case where such unit is unable or unwilling  to take the mission, another unit is assigned the mission. Be it Region, Wing, Group or Squadron... doesn't matter.