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Convicted felons

Started by Flying Pig, September 28, 2007, 06:28:44 PM

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Flying Pig

I was digging in our Sq file cabinet and found a letter from a couple of years ago from a person who tried to join our squadron.  Stapled to it was his membership application and a letter stating why he wanted to join CAP.  In the letter he stated he had been a convicted of a "non violent, non drug related felony."   But that he had changed his life, yada yada yada.....

The next page was obviously his response to the then Sq. Commander advising him that he was displeased with CAP's narrow mindedness, and that he would be forced to pursue legal action against CAP for discrimination.   We all know thats going nowhere, and obviously never did.

My question is, if a prospective applicant comes to the Sq to join and openly tells us he is a convicted felon, as this person did, do we still send up the application and the check and let it run its course, or do send them on their way citing the regulation regarding convicted felons?

dwb

All new members join at the discretion of the unit commander.  Even if he would pass the fingerprint test, the unit commander can still say he's not comfortable having a convicted felon in the unit.

There are things we're not allowed to discriminate on (for good reason), but no one has a right to join CAP.

Flying Pig

Being that a felony conviction is a disqualifier from CAP, do we let it run its course and let the big CAP give him the official disqualification or do we tell him at the Sq level and send him on his way. 
I have no problem telling a felon hes not joining the unit.  Depending on what the issue was, I may point him to another organization where he can give back to the community.

Has anyone actually dealt with this issue?

Skyray

When they first implemented the background/fingerprint check, there were a number of already members who blustered and declaimed about lawsuits.  Mostly at the local level we just tried to explain to them that it was CAP policy, had always been CAP policy, and if they didn't get terminated for being a convicted felon, then we would terminate them for lying on their application.  It all blew over.  My personal opinion is that if they disclose it, gently inform them of the policy, and tell them that only the National Commander or the Executive Director can grant a waiver.  I know of at least two waivers that have been granted, and both of those my information is that the member had his civil rights restored by competent authority prior to applying for membership.
Doug Johnson - Miami

Always Active-Sometimes a Member

dwb

Quote from: Flying Pig on September 28, 2007, 06:53:55 PMHas anyone actually dealt with this issue?

Sort of.  We had one person fail the fingerprint check; don't remember why, but it was similar to this situation (not a violent felony, just some mistakes in the person's youth).

They didn't tell us in advance, so we didn't know until we got a letter back from NHQ.  We had to take their card away and explain the situation.  As I recall, the person was generally okay with it (viz. they knew their past could potentially get in the way).

As to whether we'd let "Big CAP" be the bad guy... it depends.  Depends on the applicant, and the commander.  I'd rather not waste his time and mine, so if I were the commander in that situation, I wouldn't allow the person to apply.

Admittedly, I don't know much about the background check.  If someone stole a car in 1975, do they get rejected for CAP membership in 2007?  It doesn't seem fair.  I'm not sure if recency/severity of the conviction plays into the background check.

SDF_Specialist

My old commander would ask if there was anything that could potentially bar membership. He would then give examples of things that he's seen. If you had something, he would make a phone call to whomever, and let you know. I think it would be better to be handled at the lowest echelon possible.
SDF_Specialist

Skyray

It may not seem fair, Justin, but it's the rules.  One of the members I was talking about who got caught with the then new fingerprint/background check had a thirty-five year old misdemeanor conviction for disorderly conduct.  Unfortunately for him, the details were still available and it was for sexual misconduct with a minor.  I would have liked to keep him around, he had turned his life around and was a Red Cross First Aid Instructor who taught our first Aid classes for free.  But with that record, National said 'No way."
Doug Johnson - Miami

Always Active-Sometimes a Member

Cadet Tillett

I think it should be handled at the squadron level as much as possible - if the guy keeps pushing or threatening a lawsuit, then you can let "Big Cap" take over and handle the problem at a higher level.
There's no point in letting someone apply and write the check if they're just going to get it right back stamped "denied", when we could have told them that they aren't eligible for membership and saved everyone a lot of headache.
C/Capt. Tillett, NCWG
Wright Brothers #4609
Mitchell #54148
Earhart #14039

Flying Pig

OK, so we can cut it off at the Sq level then tell them if they have any issues call Natl.

mikeylikey

Quote from: Cadet Tillett on September 28, 2007, 07:18:47 PM
I think it should be handled at the squadron level as much as possible - if the guy keeps pushing or threatening a lawsuit, then you can let "Big Cap" take over and handle the problem at a higher level.
There's no point in letting someone apply and write the check if they're just going to get it right back stamped "denied", when we could have told them that they aren't eligible for membership and saved everyone a lot of headache.

You are wrong!  Prior felonies do NOT mean a person can not join CAP.  It means more work must be done with the application at the LOCAL level.  We need waivers, and statements to go along with the application.  The SQD Commander needs to call NHQ and let them know an application with possible waivers is on it's way.

Don't forget, a felony in one STATE may only be a misdemeanor in another STATE.  Every opportunity should be given to a prospective member to join if he or she had made a single mistake in their past.  If we are going to base accepting people on criminal records, then we should include speeding tickets (Can't drive a corporate vehicle then), filing bankruptcy (can't be on finance committies, or submitt for expense reimbursements), also lets include divorces here as well.  If you can't keep your family together, how are you supposed to make your SQD run smoothly?.  While we are at it, we should also include illegal drug testing with the application.  You can't let the guy in that bounced 3 checks 50 years ago and got a felony (but no jail time), but you will allow the clean-cut METH head who hides her addiction very well in.  The whole thing is a double standard.
What's up monkeys?

mikeylikey

Quote from: Flying Pig on September 28, 2007, 07:45:38 PM
OK, so we can cut it off at the Sq level then tell them if they have any issues call Natl.

No......becasue they are allowed to ask for a waiver from NHQ!

CANT CUT ANYTHING OFF AT THE LOCAL LEVEL.
What's up monkeys?

RiverAux

I would let them apply and let NHQ make the call.  I would, of course, tell them that it was a longshot. 

Flying Pig

  ;D  ...OK River...Thanks.

RiverAux

I do suppose that I probably wouldn't go that far for them if the felony was something that obviously wouldn't fly (murder, child-related).  It would have to be a bit of a judgement call. 

Skyray

Quote from: RiverAux on September 28, 2007, 08:00:07 PM
I would let them apply and let NHQ make the call.  I would, of course, tell them that it was a longshot. 

It might help to compile a packet to accompany the application to National.  As I said elsewhere, a bad check is a felony in Florida (not always, but sometimes).

Sheesh, Mikey, you are going to get labeled as a bleeding heart liberal.
Doug Johnson - Miami

Always Active-Sometimes a Member

Major Lord

Thats the best kind of liberal: Bleeding!

Major Lord
"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee."

Pylon

Quote from: mikeylikey on September 28, 2007, 07:51:12 PM
No......becasue they are allowed to ask for a waiver from NHQ!

CANT CUT ANYTHING OFF AT THE LOCAL LEVEL.

Yes you can.  Any application can be denied at the local level without ever being submitted to National.  That's why the unit commander must sign off on each application, and why each squadron must have a membership review committee.  The right to send in a CAP application for membership doesn't exist.  It's a privilege, and the first step is having your application accepted by a unit commander. 

They're not allowed to ask for a waiver if the unit commander doesn't approve them to apply to become a member of their unit in the first place.
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

Flying Pig

So heres another question......

Lets say the person gets in.  Im curious what jobs they may be excluded from?  You cant have a pilots license with a felony conviction.  Cant have an EMT license.  Counter Drug Ops are out.  Are there any other duties that by the nature of the training requirements that a felon would be prevented from taking part in?

jeders

Quote from: Flying Pig on September 28, 2007, 08:48:13 PM
So heres another question......

Lets say the person gets in.  Im curious what jobs they may be excluded from?  You cant have a pilots license with a felony conviction.  Cant have an EMT license.  Counter Drug Ops are out.  Are there any other duties that by the nature of the training requirements that a felon would be prevented from taking part in?

Depending on the felony, they'd be barred from working with cadets I would imagine. That, with what you already listed, pretty much cuts out most of the possible things they could do.
If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse

lordmonar

Quote from: Flying Pig on September 28, 2007, 06:53:55 PM
Being that a felony conviction is a dis-qualifier from CAP, do we let it run its course and let the big CAP give him the official disqualification or do we tell him at the Sq level and send him on his way. 

Being a convicted felon is NOT a disqualifier....it just has to have NHQ approval.

Depending on the situation, assuming someone at the unit level wanted to back it, they could pursue it up the chain.

But as was pointed out before....if the unit commander does not want you...you can't join....you can't even transfer with our the gaining CC's okay.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP