How to handle TRANSGENDER Cadet: biology or choice?

[Garibaldi]

Feeble attempt to get back on topic here. I know I said I would not reply or entertain any responses to PMs, but for what it's worth, and I hope this rings true with at least some people here, here goes nothing.
I am probably the most liberal leaning member of CAP. Compared to some of my peers, at least. Most everyone I've encountered in CAP leans towards conservatism, but shades of liberalism come through at times. This is one of those times.

A lot of conservatives have harsh words about the gay/trans/bi life, and that's OK. They're entitled to their opinions. Misguided or not, they are entitled to think, feel, and speak that way. Doesn't mean we won't respond, but there you go.

That said, I fully support any cadet that comes out to me as gay, or bi, or transgendered, and I will do anything in my power to protect their rights as a human being and a cadet.

HOWEVER...and this is where it gets really sticky for me....logistically, it is going to be a nightmare, as we've seen so far. A cadet with boyparts who identifies as a female, and vice versa, is welcome in my unit. I would have a hard time figuring out billeting and such, but as we've seen, CAP is nothing if not resourceful. We'd figure out a way to make it work to the benefit of all involved. We always find a way.

The Army Values states "I will always put the mission first". Our Core Values include the word RESPECT. This means everyone, not just people who share the same point of view or belief structure. If you cannot live up to the value of RESPECT, then you are more than welcome to spend your money and time where you are more happy. No one is twisting your arm to be here. I'm not calling anyone out on this; I've already done that earlier.

All I'm saying is that if we don't live up to the Core Values, then we're nowhere. An archaic organism with no purpose, no life, no mission. I would put it to the membership at large to put their personal feelings about this aside, and look to the larger mission. Figure out where the rest of the puzzle pieces go later.

Let's not lose our focus. It's a real issue that we will have to deal with sooner or later. I, personally, will not cry if those who don't agree with having their kids share 3 hours a week with someone who identifies as a different gender leaves in a huff. I don't need that kind of negativity in my life, and you should not either. Our job is not to judge, but to execute the mission.

Now, I'm done.

[bluehoodie]

CAP has no business either endorsing or restricting, promoting or suppressing, or even discussing sexual identity with minor children during their developmental phases.  Sorry, RNOfficer, I know you may think this is part of a CAP health services mission (a guess on my part, only based on reading your past posts), and I appreciate your interest in serving the members from your point of view, but I'd disagree as much as I disagreed with one of my Chaplains once who thought he'd use CAP to push his faith on cadets.  Not part of our mission.

V/R
Spam

I agree. 


Hence the quite logical stance of CAP to leave the definitions and identification up to the states.
You are a boy or a girl base on what ever legal government issued documents say you are.

CAP will not be endorsing, restricting or promoting anything.

If there was a cadet who was an open trans anything in our squadron my family would withdraw.

How can CAP teach Christian moral values and allow something against natural law at the same time?

Secondly IMO a young person who believes he or she is a different sex is misguided and adults have an obligation to give them proper guidance.

And here we have the divergence that makes for colorful discussion on CAPTalk.... 

Just to make things clear; CAP develops young leaders within our "Core Values".  "We" do not teach our cadets, nor do we impose our personal beliefs on them.  The value of "respect" is expected for all of us.  I understand the discomfort (of some) to deal with the "different", and I understand the passion of those of fundamentalist belief,  however, IMHO,  the expression of such should be left at home; not taken to your unit.

So you would be OK with a transvestite 6' 2" 5:00 shadow deep voice with heels and a blond wig helping your 13 year old son develop Core Values? Do you want your 14 year old daughter to spend all week a group of college aged female cadets who believe they are men?  What a joke. I don't want my family anywhere near that type of perversion.

There's the door. Don't let it hit you where the Good Lord split you on the way out. This is the type of attitude we are trying to stop. Thank you for your service to CAP, inc. and we will be sorry (not) to see you go. For your information, more "perversion" is committed by male seniors against male cadets than any gay/trans/bi against the unwilling. If you are so threatened by this type of lifestyle, then I suggest you check yourself and take a really good look in the mirror and decide for yourself if you really are as heterosexual and as loving a Christian as you claim to be. If you feel THAT threatened, then perhaps YOU are the one with the issues.

*drops mic*

No further responses from me will be forthcoming. Any PMs on the subject from you will be reported to the moderator as harassing and intolerant.

I have never PMed you!

[bluehoodie]

How can CAP teach Christian moral values and allow something against natural law at the same time?

Can you please provide a regulation quote that says CAP teaches Christian moral values?

Last time I checked, we have Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Atheists, Satanists, and scores of other religions in CAP.

I know they were looking for a pastor for the chaplain spot which is usually a cleric in a Christian church. Why did they say Pastor instead of Iman or Satanist?

[JeffDG]

How can CAP teach Christian moral values and allow something against natural law at the same time?

Can you please provide a regulation quote that says CAP teaches Christian moral values?

Last time I checked, we have Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Atheists, Satanists, and scores of other religions in CAP.

I know they were looking for a pastor for the chaplain spot which is usually a cleric in a Christian church. Why did they say Pastor instead of Iman or Satanist?

Also didn't say "Priest" either, but I know some Catholic Chaplains.  A Rabbi or a Imam can absolutely become a CAP Chaplain.

[Flying Pig]

So..... about that new G1000 upgrade....

[Garibaldi]

So..... about that new G1000 upgrade....

Y'all haven't gotten that yet? Move into the 21st century, man! We're already up to G-2000!

[bluehoodie]

So you would be OK with a transvestite 6' 2" 5:00 shadow deep voice with heels and a blond wig helping your 13 year old son develop Core Values? Do you want your 14 year old daughter to spend all week a group of college aged female cadets who believe they are men?  What a joke. I don't want my family anywhere near that type of perversion.

My single attempt to give a rational response to an irrational statement and individual...

As long as that 6'2" transvestite conforms with CAPR 39-1 and our grooming standards, I don't see the problem.  If that person is teaching the Core Values as laid out by CAP then they're not teaching any perversion.  It also should be pointed out that CAP doesn't provide a platform to stage a drag or burlesque show at cadet meetings.  So, I really think your concern is truly for naught.

As far as your other concern of teaching Christian values, perhaps you'd be more comfortable in the Boy Scouts if that is your primary concern.

I realize CAP is not advertising to have a Tuesday night drag show after the pledge of allegiance but allowing openly transgender or transvestite people this is what we are accepting. It could very well be that we have a man dressed as a woman who is working with boys or a girl being with a group of older girl cadets who identity as male. 

[Flying Pig]

No further responses from me will be forthcoming. Any PMs on the subject from you will be reported to the moderator as harassing and intolerant.

I dont care what side of the argument you are on... that was just silly.  Welcome to the internet age where people can be harassed by PMs they dont have to open.

[bluehoodie]

No further responses from me will be forthcoming. Any PMs on the subject from you will be reported to the moderator as harassing and intolerant.

I dont care what side of the argument you are on... that was just silly.  Welcome to the internet age where people can be harassed by PMs they dont have to open.

FYI I have not PMed anyone on this subject but what the "intolerant" part about? Second I don't see how my post  indicated I was going towards harassing the poster.

[Garibaldi]

No further responses from me will be forthcoming. Any PMs on the subject from you will be reported to the moderator as harassing and intolerant.

I dont care what side of the argument you are on... that was just silly.  Welcome to the internet age where people can be harassed by PMs they dont have to open.

Eh. Whatevs. I've had worse in my inbox. But you're right. Non-productive, silly, ineffective. All I have to do is ignore the message. Which is why I refuse to respond to him/her anymore. My blood pressure shot through the roof before I could check myself earlier. Not worth it.

[bluehoodie]

No further responses from me will be forthcoming. Any PMs on the subject from you will be reported to the moderator as harassing and intolerant.

I dont care what side of the argument you are on... that was just silly.  Welcome to the internet age where people can be harassed by PMs they dont have to open.

Eh. Whatevs. I've had worse in my inbox. But you're right. Non-productive, silly, ineffective. All I have to do is ignore the message. Which is why I refuse to respond to him/her anymore. My blood pressure shot through the roof before I could check myself earlier. Not worth it.

I've not PMed you or anyone else today. A PMd someone a few weeks ago about an alternate encampment date.

[Flying Pig]

Go over to the Aviation section and watch the video of the SR71 pilot.  It will make your day. 

[Flying Pig]

No further responses from me will be forthcoming. Any PMs on the subject from you will be reported to the moderator as harassing and intolerant.

I dont care what side of the argument you are on... that was just silly.  Welcome to the internet age where people can be harassed by PMs they dont have to open.

Eh. Whatevs. I've had worse in my inbox. But you're right. Non-productive, silly, ineffective. All I have to do is ignore the message. Which is why I refuse to respond to him/her anymore. My blood pressure shot through the roof before I could check myself earlier. Not worth it.

I've not PMed you or anyone else today. A PMd someone a few weeks ago about an alternate encampment date.

I think he explained that he's over it.

[PHall]

You know, this thread is the trainwreck I expected it to be. And would expect nothing less from CAPTalk. The "usual suspects" doing their thing...

[Garibaldi]

You know, this thread is the trainwreck I expected it to be. And would expect nothing less from CAPTalk. The "usual suspects" doing their thing...

I resemble that remark....but seriously, nothing gets my dander up faster than intolerance. I'm out. At least for this topic.

For the record, nowhere did I state that I had received a PM from anyone, just that I would ignore one if one came in.

[raivo]

Well, this got silly fast.

Back to the original question, I think it's asking a little much of CAP to have a stance on transgender issues set in stone, because that's something American society as a whole is still trying to figure out.

With that in mind, my personal opinion is that the current policy of "legal gender as defined by the state" (if I'm reading the rest of the thread correctly) is probably the best stance for the organization as a whole for right now.

[lordmonar]

I realize CAP is not advertising to have a Tuesday night drag show after the pledge of allegiance but allowing openly transgender or transvestite people this is what we are accepting. It could very well be that we have a man dressed as a woman who is working with boys or a girl being with a group of older girl cadets who identity as male.

And?
That's the intolerable part that people are pointing out.

Doing your job in CAP has very little to do with your gender or what clothes you want to wear.

I'm an atheist.  I believe that religion is actually harmful to individuals and to society in general.   But I tolerate as long as it does not interfere with with the three missions of CAP.
[/rant]

[NCRblues]

I think we "jumped the shark" on this one.

[Garibaldi]

I realize CAP is not advertising to have a Tuesday night drag show after the pledge of allegiance but allowing openly transgender or transvestite people this is what we are accepting. It could very well be that we have a man dressed as a woman who is working with boys or a girl being with a group of older girl cadets who identity as male.

And?
That's the intolerable part that people are pointing out.

Doing your job in CAP has very little to do with your gender or what clothes you want to wear.

I'm an atheist.  I believe that religion is actually harmful to individuals and to society in general.   But I tolerate as long as it does not interfere with with the three missions of CAP.
[/rant]

Religion has no place in CAP. That is why we went from a "faith based" moral leadership program to Character Development program. Too many issues with chaplains putting their own religious spin on things, proselytizing and preaching. Sure, the CD officer has to be someone with a theological degree, but that does not mean they get to have the Sunday Come to Jesus meetin' at CAP. Proselytize on your own time.

[Pace]

Stay on topic, folks. I think insightful discourse can come from this thread, which is why I haven't shut it down yet. Ignore the inflammatory remarks and focus on the main points. If history teaches us anything, it's that the only constant is change. As society adapts legally, how will we make this work within our organization? What will it look like? Will it always be based on legal gender? Maybe. Will it require the designation of an additional bunking area? I do agree that we are jumping the shark a little, but if I had a transgendered cadet that raised these questions to me with their parents I know I would like the benefit of forethought that this thread enables. Please stay on topic so we don't have to shut this one down.