How to handle TRANSGENDER Cadet: biology or choice?

[AirAux]

Actually at National Legal College last year, we were told by one of the speakers that if Johnny was a male cadet, came back after summer vacation and identified himself as a female cadet, we should accept that.  Heated discussion arose and General Vazquez took the floor and said we shall research this more...  Ned is correct.

[THRAWN]

Actually at National Legal College last year, we were told by one of the speakers that if Johnny was a male cadet, came back after summer vacation and identified himself as a female cadet, we should accept that.  Heated discussion arose and General Vazquez took the floor and said we shall research this more...  Ned is correct.

It's been a year since the topic was debated here. The response that was given was "We have top men working on it right now." When can we expect a progress report, or something from the lawyers?

[kirbahashi]

It's been a year since the topic was debated here. The response that was given was "We have top men working on it right now." When can we expect a progress report, or something from the lawyers?

TOP... men

[LSThiker]

It's been a year since the topic was debated here. The response that was given was "We have top men working on it right now." When can we expect a progress report, or something from the lawyers?

As we all know, this is not a simple subject.  Each year, laws are changed and expanded while some states look to restrict those laws.  While I agree an expedited solution to this would be much appreciated, but I doubt a year is really enough time for NHQ to tackle this complex situation with 50 different state laws with 100 different wing and region lawyer opinions (whether grounded in law or simply personal interpretation of the law).   

[NIN]

In the case of other military cadets, are the Military Academies accepting a transvestitive wearing of the uniform?

Do you mean "transsexual," "transgendered," or "transvestite?"

Because they are all different things.  I'm pretty sure my penchant to dress in female uniforms in my off time (relax, I don't have one) doesn't parley well toward on-duty time, unless I have a need to identify as a different sex (which I don't).

[NIN]

TOP... men

FTFY, in case anybody was confused

[TheSkyHornet]

In the case of other military cadets, are the Military Academies accepting a transvestitive wearing of the uniform?

Is this purely a matter of curiosity, as it has no bearing on CAP protocols?

[THRAWN]

It's been a year since the topic was debated here. The response that was given was "We have top men working on it right now." When can we expect a progress report, or something from the lawyers?

As we all know, this is not a simple subject.  Each year, laws are changed and expanded while some states look to restrict those laws.  While I agree an expedited solution to this would be much appreciated, but I doubt a year is really enough time for NHQ to tackle this complex situation with 50 different state laws with 100 different wing and region lawyer opinions (whether grounded in law or simply personal interpretation of the law).

So by your explanation, it will never happen. Lousy Tenth Amendment. And you did not answer the question. I doubt that we are looking for, nor are we expecting an "expedited" solution, but after more than a year of discussion, there should be....something as opposed to the blank states and very loud silence.

[Ned]

It's been a year since the topic was debated here. The response that was given was "We have top men working on it right now." When can we expect a progress report, or something from the lawyers?

If only it were that simple.  But this is much more than a mere legal issue.   There are a lot of stakeholders and moving parts to carefully consider.  And as others have pointed out, this whole issue is a moving target that continues to develop even as we aggressively work the issues in an attempt to be respectful, supportive, and inclusive to our membership while maintaining a challenging and vigorous youth leadership training program.

We've already had an extensive report from a task force that included GLTB experts, senior commanders, parents, chaplains, cadets, and CP officers.  That report resulted in our current "legal gender in your state" policy.

After further discussions and additional raised concerns, Gen Vasquez appointed another group (CAP Study Group on Gender Issues - chaired by a legal officer) with a somewhat different mandate.  They continue to meet, and have the Corporate Counsel and CP as official advisors to the group. 

As it turns out, CAP is sending two CP folks to a conference on GLTB issues in youth organizations later this month.  I'm sure we will be able to gather additional best practices and comparisons with other comparable organizations to provide to the Study Group.

At some point the Study Group will present something to the senior leadership who ultimately decides what CAP policies and regulations will be.

[TheSkyHornet]

It's been a year since the topic was debated here. The response that was given was "We have top men working on it right now." When can we expect a progress report, or something from the lawyers?

As we all know, this is not a simple subject.  Each year, laws are changed and expanded while some states look to restrict those laws.  While I agree an expedited solution to this would be much appreciated, but I doubt a year is really enough time for NHQ to tackle this complex situation with 50 different state laws with 100 different wing and region lawyer opinions (whether grounded in law or simply personal interpretation of the law).

So by your explanation, it will never happen. Lousy Tenth Amendment. And you did not answer the question. I doubt that we are looking for, nor are we expecting an "expedited" solution, but after more than a year of discussion, there should be....something as opposed to the blank states and very loud silence.

You could make it into an Article IV argument.

But in any case, even though we're a national organization, we do have different state laws to follow. In my home state of Ohio, your birth certificate states your legal gender; however, the state does recognize that drivers licenses may use identification gender, not biological gender.

So the law says that if you are born male due to the biological circumstances of your birth, you are male under the law. In CAP, you are male, so when mandating the wear of the uniform, you will wear the male uniform only. If you have a problem bunking with the other males in your unit, then we will suggest you not participate. If you still want to participate and are able to accept a housing accommodation that refrains from you bunking with females, we will do our best to make this work. If we cannot provide this accommodate, we cannot let you participate. If you have further issues, I refer it to Group. I followed the law. I followed CAP regs. There's nothing more I can do for you.

[LSThiker]

So by your explanation, it will never happen. Lousy Tenth Amendment. And you did not answer the question. I doubt that we are looking for, nor are we expecting an "expedited" solution, but after more than a year of discussion, there should be....something as opposed to the blank states and very loud silence.

I hope it does happen.  I did not "answer the question" simply because I do not have an answer to the question.  No one at this point does.  I think our definitions of expedited are different.  To me for this situation, a year is an expedited solution.  Considering how long it took for the US to allow gays and lesbians into the military and women into combat roles, I really do not expect anything to happen soon.  Nevertheless, I am sure a definitive solution will be presented.  As Ned points out, there are a lot of moving parts. 

I am fully supportive of LBGT issues as I think it is quite obvious.  While I wish the US Supreme Court or Congress would draft laws that would answer all of these questions we have tomorrow, one must be realistic.  It will take time and a lot of it unfortunately. 

   

[JeffDG]

So by your explanation, it will never happen. Lousy Tenth Amendment. And you did not answer the question. I doubt that we are looking for, nor are we expecting an "expedited" solution, but after more than a year of discussion, there should be....something as opposed to the blank states and very loud silence.

I hope it does happen.  I did not "answer the question" simply because I do not have an answer to the question.  No one at this point does.  I think our definitions of expedited are different.  To me for this situation, a year is an expedited solution.  Considering how long it took for the US to allow gays and lesbians into the military and women into combat roles, I really do not expect anything to happen soon.  Nevertheless, I am sure a definitive solution will be presented.  As Ned points out, there are a lot of moving parts. 

I am fully supportive of LBGT issues as I think it is quite obvious.  While I wish the US Supreme Court or Congress would draft laws that would answer all of these questions we have tomorrow, one must be realistic.  It will take time and a lot of it unfortunately. 

   

The issue I see right now is that we have "TOP Men" working on this, however those people don't actually have to deal with the situations.  Detailed discussions at the "echelons above reality" don't help when a situation presents itself in the real world.  Local unit and activity commanders do have to do so, and they're being asked to do so without guidance.

Some guidance as to how to approach these questions, even if it is only preliminary, is needed.

[lordmonar]

Actually at National Legal College last year, we were told by one of the speakers that if Johnny was a male cadet, came back after summer vacation and identified himself as a female cadet, we should accept that.  Heated discussion arose and General Vazquez took the floor and said we shall research this more...  Ned is correct.

It's been a year since the topic was debated here. The response that was given was "We have top men working on it right now." When can we expect a progress report, or something from the lawyers?

Since when have Lawyers ever produced legal opinions is a timely manner.   When has CAP ever gotten policy out in a timely manner.   Now combine those two things........and add in LGBT issues.....which I would like to point out are constantly changing, currently in review my BIG BLUE Air Force.   A year is just enough time for the players to get a feel for how complex the issue can be.

In the mean time we got a policy.    "What does your ID card say?"   It's not the best policy, but it's simple.   

[Ned]

I doubt that we are looking for, nor are we expecting an "expedited" solution, but after more than a year of discussion, there should be....something as opposed to the blank states and very loud silence.

I don't think that is quite fair.  After an extensive study, we HAVE an existing policy.  Legal gender.  That may or may not change as a result of additional study and review.  But it bears repeating that we have an existing policy specifically formulated in response to careful study.

NHQ has been directly involved with CP leaders in the field (NCSA and encampment commanders, unit and wing commanders, etc.) to explain the current policy and provide support where needed.  This is not an "ivory tower" issue for us.  It is an important issue that affects a growing number of CP officers.

Thank you for your work with our cadets.

[CAPDCCMOM]

Ned,

At the risk of asking the question that will result in ridicule and embarrassment, what is the policy and where does one find it?

[THRAWN]

Ned,

At the risk of asking the question that will result in ridicule and embarrassment, what is the policy and where does one find it?

Ditto this. It's not in the reg dealing with membership....nor is it in the nondiscrimination regs....nor the the KB have any info under the terms "transgender" or "transsexual"....where can this written policy be found?

[Garibaldi]

I would assume he is referring to 36-1, nondiscrimination in CAP, but I can't see anything referring to gender other than the de rigeur we will not discriminate based on sex, race, gender etc.

[THRAWN]

I would assume he is referring to 36-1, nondiscrimination in CAP, but I can't see anything referring to gender other than the de rigeur we will not discriminate based on sex, race, gender etc.

Possibly, but that still doesn't address the issue that "we have a policy" and it is based on "legal gender".

[ALORD]

In the case of other military cadets, are the Military Academies accepting a transvestitive wearing of the uniform?

Do you mean "transsexual," "transgendered," or "transvestite?"

Because they are all different things.  I'm pretty sure my penchant to dress in female uniforms in my off time (relax, I don't have one) doesn't parley well toward on-duty time, unless I have a need to identify as a different sex (which I don't).

Nin,

I am assuming that the Service Academies would not accept, for instance, a male candidate who was undergoing hormonal therapy with or without genital surgical modifications ( Hey, they don't  even like tattoos!) So I am limiting my question specifically to "public" transvestites in regards to the Service Academies. While comparing CAP to West Point is a bit of a reach, it gives us policy inferences or a bench mark at least in so far as the wearing of the Uniform. I have worked as a Medic  in San Franciso, and I understand the distinctions you have pointed out. ( And then some!)  Although we may ( Reluctantly or happily) accept alternative sexual identities, any out of the ordinary alternative life-style, if kept, so to speak, in the closet, may be cause for the denial or revocation of some types of security clearances, since it leaves the person open to blackmail or coercion. In the absence of any actual situations occurring like this in CAP, I don't see that the potential rats nest of problems need be pre-determined. Most people I would assume are concerned about their cadets, whether or not there fears are rational or irrational bigotry. Irrespective of the difficulties in describing an actual person's "Category" the CPPT still provides useful, although somewhat draconian tools in the event of a complaint.  Suspend and Investigate, and in a perfect world, leave politics out of it.

[NIN]

You do realize that a "male candidate who was undergoing hormonal therapy with or without genital surgical modifications" is not a "transvestite" any more than he's a "penguin," right?

There is a substantial difference between a "transgender male" or "transsexual male" as you describe, and a "transvestite."  The comedian Eddie Izzard is the latter (or, as he likes to put it, "an executive transvestite")