Criticism of Rangers & Blue Berets

[Blackhawk]

In looking at past posts, I've noticed a trend of strong criticism towards the some NCSA 's, particularly Hawk Mountain SAR School – Rangers, and attendees of National Blue Beret.  Mostly, the criticism is in the attitude of the attendees following their participation in events, but that can be said about some of the posters here on CAP Talk as well! 

What is the opinion out there: are these "elite" to cocky for their own good?  Are these just a few isolated instances that give the appearance of a trend?  Are these just highly confident young people that we want in our organizations and communities?  Do these NCSA's still provide something of value that doesn't already exist within the organization (i.e. the GT vs. Ranger argument) or, do they just augment or duplicate efforts? 

Please, let's try to keep this as an actual discussion and not complaint and trolling session towards a particular NCSA.  It need not be limited to Hawk Mountain/Rangers, or Blue Berets, if there are other examples you wish to discuss, please add them to the conversation. 

[Eclipse]

Is this another "academic exercise"?

There's plenty here without rehashing again.

Search is your friend.

[Blackhawk]

Is this another "academic exercise"?

There's plenty here without rehashing again.

Search is your friend.

Thanks.

[Blackhawk]

So...now does anyone have any opinion on the question at hand?

[Luis R. Ramos]

Beating a dead horse...



Does not need to be rehashed...



There is an old saying that says basically the more you stir sh__, the worse it smells, so do not rehash this...



Flyer

[Майор Хаткевич]

If you read the other topics, then what new info do you expect to see in this one?

[Flying Pig]

I think there are pages upon pages of "opinions" that have run this into the ground.

[blackrain]

In looking at past posts, I've noticed a trend of strong criticism towards the some NCSA 's, particularly Hawk Mountain SAR School – Rangers, and attendees of National Blue Beret.  Mostly, the criticism is in the attitude of the attendees following their participation in events, but that can be said about some of the posters here on CAP Talk as well! 

What is the opinion out there: are these "elite" to cocky for their own good?  Are these just a few isolated instances that give the appearance of a trend?  Are these just highly confident young people that we want in our organizations and communities?  Do these NCSA's still provide something of value that doesn't already exist within the organization (i.e. the GT vs. Ranger argument) or, do they just augment or duplicate efforts? 

Please, let's try to keep this as an actual discussion and not complaint and trolling session towards a particular NCSA.  It need not be limited to Hawk Mountain/Rangers, or Blue Berets, if there are other examples you wish to discuss, please add them to the conversation.

In my mind there is only one Ranger School and it's at Ft Benning.....If in fact any of those kids are cocky...well I've not news for them...they haven't earned that right

[johnnyb47]

In looking at past posts, I've noticed a trend of strong criticism towards the some NCSA 's, particularly Hawk Mountain SAR School – Rangers, and attendees of National Blue Beret.  Mostly, the criticism is in the attitude of the attendees following their participation in events, but that can be said about some of the posters here on CAP Talk as well! 

What is the opinion out there: are these "elite" to cocky for their own good?  Are these just a few isolated instances that give the appearance of a trend?  Are these just highly confident young people that we want in our organizations and communities?  Do these NCSA's still provide something of value that doesn't already exist within the organization (i.e. the GT vs. Ranger argument) or, do they just augment or duplicate efforts? 

Please, let's try to keep this as an actual discussion and not complaint and trolling session towards a particular NCSA.  It need not be limited to Hawk Mountain/Rangers, or Blue Berets, if there are other examples you wish to discuss, please add them to the conversation.

In my mind there is only one Ranger School and it's at Ft Benning.....If in fact any of those kids are cocky...well I've not news for them...they haven't earned that right

This is why we don't ask for opinions on Hawk

[lordmonar]

In looking at past posts, I've noticed a trend of strong criticism towards the some NCSA 's, particularly Hawk Mountain SAR School – Rangers, and attendees of National Blue Beret.  Mostly, the criticism is in the attitude of the attendees following their participation in events, but that can be said about some of the posters here on CAP Talk as well! 

What is the opinion out there: are these "elite" to cocky for their own good?  Are these just a few isolated instances that give the appearance of a trend?  Are these just highly confident young people that we want in our organizations and communities?  Do these NCSA's still provide something of value that doesn't already exist within the organization (i.e. the GT vs. Ranger argument) or, do they just augment or duplicate efforts? 

Please, let's try to keep this as an actual discussion and not complaint and trolling session towards a particular NCSA.  It need not be limited to Hawk Mountain/Rangers, or Blue Berets, if there are other examples you wish to discuss, please add them to the conversation.

In my mind there is only one Ranger School and it's at Ft Benning.....If in fact any of those kids are cocky...well I've not news for them...they haven't earned that right

I'll tell my Forest Ranger and Texas Ranger and NPS Ranger friends you think that they are just cocky kids.

The OP was in a way pointing out that we here on CAPTALK often go overboard in out assault on NBB or HM people for being "cocky kids".....when in fact it is just a few isolated individuals who are painting a bad picture for everyone who had done these NCSAs.


And we attack anyone who is trying to have a simple discussion about how bad the problem may be.   End of rant.

[Flying Pig]

Guys....it's a youth activity.   It's not a big deal.  It really isn't.

[arajca]

The OP was in a way pointing out that we here on CAPTALK often go overboard in out assault on NBB or HM people for being "cocky kids".....when in fact it is just a few isolated individuals who are painting a bad picture for everyone who had done these NCSAs.

While it just may be a few individuals, it seems that there enough of these few individuals that comprise the majority of the NBB/Hawk folks the members here seem to meet. Hence the fairly consistant attitude about them.

I've been told that I'm not supposed to judge an activity by the people I meet who have completed it but instead by what the proponents of the activity tell me it is. Well, too bad. If the product of an activity has an attitude problem afterward, I blame the activity as well as the member.

[Storm Chaser]

I think both Blue Beret and Hawk Mountain are good activities and they provide different training opportunities in their own way. When compared to other activities such as NESA, I don't think they duplicate efforts or even compete with each other. Again, they're different activities. They may share some training objectives and methods, but they're geared toward different overall goals. There's nothing wrong with that. If that keeps our cadets and senior members active and contributing to the organization, then where is the harm in that?

As far as the few "bad apples" that are constantly being mentioned here, they're not necessary limited to these two activities. There's always going to be people like that and that's why we have rules and regulations to deal with them. At the end of the day, they're just two more activities available to our members. And I think that's a good thing.

I know there are plenty of debates here on whether these activities "deserve" a distinctive insignia or uniform item such as the beret or the Ranger tab, but I think that's a different discussion all together.

DISCLAIMER: I have not participated in either one of these activities, so I have no vested interest or direct personal experience with them.

[lordmonar]

The OP was in a way pointing out that we here on CAPTALK often go overboard in out assault on NBB or HM people for being "cocky kids".....when in fact it is just a few isolated individuals who are painting a bad picture for everyone who had done these NCSAs.

While it just may be a few individuals, it seems that there enough of these few individuals that comprise the majority of the NBB/Hawk folks the members here seem to meet. Hence the fairly consistant attitude about them.

I've been told that I'm not supposed to judge an activity by the people I meet who have completed it but instead by what the proponents of the activity tell me it is. Well, too bad. If the product of an activity has an attitude problem afterward, I blame the activity as well as the member.

So we judge CAP on the few salute trolls or duffle bags or pedophiles?   

Yes we got our bad apples......we don't judge the harvest on the few that don't get it.

[arajca]

The OP was in a way pointing out that we here on CAPTALK often go overboard in out assault on NBB or HM people for being "cocky kids".....when in fact it is just a few isolated individuals who are painting a bad picture for everyone who had done these NCSAs.

While it just may be a few individuals, it seems that there enough of these few individuals that comprise the majority of the NBB/Hawk folks the members here seem to meet. Hence the fairly consistant attitude about them.

I've been told that I'm not supposed to judge an activity by the people I meet who have completed it but instead by what the proponents of the activity tell me it is. Well, too bad. If the product of an activity has an attitude problem afterward, I blame the activity as well as the member.

So we judge CAP on the few salute trolls or duffle bags or pedophiles?   

Yes we got our bad apples......we don't judge the harvest on the few that don't get it.

If all you see, or the vast majority of them, are the bad apples, you do.

[NIN]

Well, where do I start?

Mind you, I came from an environment where we *had* a group level ranger program that was pretty widely known in my wing, run by guys from an AF rescue squadron, with some heavy-duty training requirements and participants who had no shortage of ego and puffery.

I went to another group's ranger program that was different, but still, there was ego & puffery. 

But then, lets not forget, teenagers are prone to ego & puffery.

However, in 32 years of association with CAP, I've never seen someone come back from AETCFC trying to convince people that they're a bad ass Air Force jet pilot.

I've never seen someone come back from COS with a "my leadership is better than your leadership" attitude.

I've never seen someone come back from PJOC and try to convince me that they're a PJ (the spectre of MSgt Miller hovers strongly over these...)

However, I have seen people return from Hawk Mtn and act like they're suddenly the leading authority on Search & Rescue.

Or tell people that because they're a Hawn Mtn medic, they're like an EMT, but better. (no kidding)

Or return from NBB with a nifty hat, some cool stories, and act like they know everything there ever is to know about tracking down an ELT.

Or go to Honor Guard Academy and come back acting like the Honor Guard Way™ is the one true way and that they're so honorable that they're going to honorably tell you about how much honor their honor has, while they "slow salute" at inappropriate times again...

Whats the common theme here?

You go to PJOC, you get cool stories and an NCSA patch.  No hat, no beanie, no ascots...

You go to AETCFC, you get some photos, and an NCSA patch. Maybe a t-shirt. No whistle, no pistol belt, no ranger tab...

You go to COS and you learn a lot about a lot of things. You might get a cool t-shirt, perhaps a patch.  Not a new way of wearing your uniform that isn't reflected in the regulations.

Is it telling that the couple years they stopped calling NBB "Blue Beret" and didn't authorize a beret, attendance dropped by 2/3?

I've been to Hawk Mountain: they don't tell their rangers "Hey, go out and act like a knucklehead, heres your patch authorizing it."  (side note: the LL patch and the ranger tab are authorized by the regs. The whistle, pistol belt & ascot worn as they are in BDUs are not. Coincidence?)

How *awesome* is a highly-trained search & rescue dude who won't turn his head further than 30 degrees off center because if he does, it causes his ascot to get all goofed up?  THAT is search & rescue?

I'm not down on people trained by Hawk Mtn.  Heck, I am one!

I'm down on people who act the fool when they shouldn't.

I'm not down on NBB. I think Oshkosh is a great event. But when people refer to fellow attendees as "berets," then I think its clear where the focus is at.  When people pitch an absolute fit because you'd rather they wore the BDU cap that EVERY OTHER DUDE IN THE UNIT is wearing, there is a problem.

I don't mind the concept of honor guard, as long as the participants understand there is a time and a place for their uniform, D&C and 2x4 inserted in the tailpipe.  You don't seen A1C Bagodonuts, the personnel shop clerk who is also on the Base Honor Guard at Burpleson AFB slow saluting or wearing his honor guard uniform when he's not doing honor guard duty, do you?

Do cool things. Be a part of the team.

[Flying Pig]

You guys rehash the same stuff every time. It's an activity for KIDS!!!

[NCRblues]

I seriously can not believe we are going to rehash the same things over NCSA's...

[Майор Хаткевич]

Well, where do I start?

Mind you, I came from an environment where we *had* a group level ranger program that was pretty widely known in my wing, run by guys from an AF rescue squadron, with some heavy-duty training requirements and participants who had no shortage of ego and puffery.

I went to another group's ranger program that was different, but still, there was ego & puffery. 

But then, lets not forget, teenagers are prone to ego & puffery.

However, in 32 years of association with CAP, I've never seen someone come back from AETCFC trying to convince people that they're a bad ass Air Force jet pilot.

I've never seen someone come back from COS with a "my leadership is better than your leadership" attitude.

I've never seen someone come back from PJOC and try to convince me that they're a PJ (the spectre of MSgt Miller hovers strongly over these...)

However, I have seen people return from Hawk Mtn and act like they're suddenly the leading authority on Search & Rescue.

Or tell people that because they're a Hawn Mtn medic, they're like an EMT, but better. (no kidding)

Or return from NBB with a nifty hat, some cool stories, and act like they know everything there ever is to know about tracking down an ELT.

Or go to Honor Guard Academy and come back acting like the Honor Guard Way™ is the one true way and that they're so honorable that they're going to honorably tell you about how much honor their honor has, while they "slow salute" at inappropriate times again...

Whats the common theme here?

You go to PJOC, you get cool stories and an NCSA patch.  No hat, no beanie, no ascots...

You go to AETCFC, you get some photos, and an NCSA patch. Maybe a t-shirt. No whistle, no pistol belt, no ranger tab...

You go to COS and you learn a lot about a lot of things. You might get a cool t-shirt, perhaps a patch.  Not a new way of wearing your uniform that isn't reflected in the regulations.

Is it telling that the couple years they stopped calling NBB "Blue Beret" and didn't authorize a beret, attendance dropped by 2/3?

I've been to Hawk Mountain: they don't tell their rangers "Hey, go out and act like a knucklehead, heres your patch authorizing it."  (side note: the LL patch and the ranger tab are authorized by the regs. The whistle, pistol belt & ascot worn as they are in BDUs are not. Coincidence?)

How *awesome* is a highly-trained search & rescue dude who won't turn his head further than 30 degrees off center because if he does, it causes his ascot to get all goofed up?  THAT is search & rescue?

I'm not down on people trained by Hawk Mtn.  Heck, I am one!

I'm down on people who act the fool when they shouldn't.

I'm not down on NBB. I think Oshkosh is a great event. But when people refer to fellow attendees as "berets," then I think its clear where the focus is at.  When people pitch an absolute fit because you'd rather they wore the BDU cap that EVERY OTHER DUDE IN THE UNIT is wearing, there is a problem.

I don't mind the concept of honor guard, as long as the participants understand there is a time and a place for their uniform, D&C and 2x4 inserted in the tailpipe.  You don't seen A1C Bagodonuts, the personnel shop clerk who is also on the Base Honor Guard at Burpleson AFB slow saluting or wearing his honor guard uniform when he's not doing honor guard duty, do you?

Do cool things. Be a part of the team.

In our last rehash I posted my still evolving theory. HMRS/NBB/HGA don't make bling loving knuckleheads, but the bling hunters choose those activities because of the bling.

[Walkman]

I haven't met a HMRS grad yet, but my very first positive impression of CAP came from an NBB grad.

I was visiting the squadron for the first time, my wife had dropped our son off and I went to pick him up after work. I had chatted with the other SMs for a little bit and they invited me outside to watch closing formation. I knew the CDC's son was this one cadet wearing a beret.

The cadets form up, the elements leaders report to this beret kid and then he walks up to the CDC, performs a snappy salute and states "All cadets present, Ma'am". It was at this point I started falling in love with the cadet program. Not many teenagers I knew of would show such respect to their mothers.

This cadet was awesome, never had a bad attitude, always made sure that if there was a problem anywhere he took appropriate leadership responsibility for his part and was generally fun to be with. Oh, yeah, he's also a Marine infantryman with two tours in the Sandbox now.

Just throwin' a good example out there...

Personally, I'd like to do both programs, they seem like a heck of a lot of fun.