Can a Senior Member NCO be a Squadron Commander?

[EMT-83]

I know a squadron commander who happens to be an NCO. The only comment I've heard is that he was an outstanding candidate for the job.

[Eclipse]

As of today, including all echelons, there are 1396 charters nationwide.

4 are indicated as being commanded by NCOs.

7 are indicated as being commanded by SMWOG

[RiverAux]

Can an NCO command a squadron?  Yep.
Should they command a squadron?  Nope. 
Am I all that worried about it?  Not really, since almost all former NCOs decide to be CAP officers, the small number that choose to be NCOs are sort of like the appendix of the CAP senior member program.  They're there, but we don't really need them and if we got rid of them, it wouldn't make much difference just as leaving them in place normally doesn't make any difference either.

[Woodsy]

I just have one thing to say about this, and CAP NCO's, please forgive me and take note:

You're not in the military anymore.  Forget the rank you had/earned/are proud of. 

Thank you for your service.  I mean that from the bottom of my heart.

The WORST type of CAP member is a former RM member who is living in the past.  We don't do it the way you did in the army/air force/whatever.

Welcome to Civil Air Patrol.  Now get with the program.  Thank you. 

[Private Investigator]

Wearing the NCO stripes (at least in my case) is an indication that you want to limit your scope of responsibility and the focus of the leadership you want to give to CAP.  So accepting the position of command you should also accept the rank that goes with it.

YMMV.

I concur.

[Private Investigator]

The WORST type of CAP member is a former RM member who is living in the past.  We don't do it the way you did in the army/air force/whatever.

Welcome to Civil Air Patrol.  Now get with the program.  Thank you.

Now that is a little harsh. Many CAP Units are on military bases. Lots of Squadrons, Groups, Wings and Regions, at their banquets have military personnel give a presentation. CAP has a close relationship with the military.

Being a former IG, you have really have made a mistake on the worst type of CAP member. 

[tsrup]

I just have one thing to say about this, and CAP NCO's, please forgive me and take note:

You're not in the military anymore.  Forget the rank you had/earned/are proud of. 

Thank you for your service.  I mean that from the bottom of my heart.

The WORST type of CAP member is a former RM member who is living in the past.  We don't do it the way you did in the army/air force/whatever.

Welcome to Civil Air Patrol.  Now get with the program.  Thank you.

Not all CAP NCOs are retirees...

but hey, don't let facts get in the way of your inflammatory post.

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

As of today, including all echelons, there are 1396 charters nationwide.

4 are indicated as being commanded by NCOs.

7 are indicated as being commanded by SMWOG

I guess if a dragon can command a squadron, an NCO can. 

[lordmonar]

It allows me to focus only on my small slice of the pie with out having to spend too much time on how my cog fits in the big picture.  I need to know how I fit in but I don't need to spend any time on trying to shape, manage or change the big picture goals of CAP.

So where's the trade off in privilege and duties for the officers?  That >is< part of the equation in the military, yes?

Enlisted and NCOs get to head-down focus on turning the wrenches and making sure they are personally safe, healthy, and ready,
but otherwise not get involved in politics and the high-end management of the organization.  How nice for them.

So what's the advantage in a CAP context to accepting the mantle of command?  Higher pay?  The privilege or rank?

"Not my job, boss..." doesn't fly in a volunteer organization, which is one of the reasons the NCO / Officer relationship won't work, either.

Then there's the fact that you say you "want to focus on tactical leadership", except that's not how it works, right?  NCO's obey the
directives of their officers, not self-select what's comfortable.  How long do you think that's going to fly in a typical squadron
when a group of members feel free to do self-select out of anything they don't feel like doing because "that's officer territory and I'm an NCO"

Then why do we have rank at all?  Last time I checked my 2d Lt admin officer gets paid exactly the same as the National Commander.
As for "not my job boss" not flying for a volunteer organization...........I think is 100% WRONG.....in fact it much more important then in a organization.  We don't pay them.....so we have to always be careful about adding more work to them. 

In my current unit we are in a major re-org.....with the idea to increase the numbers of people so that we can LIMIT the scope of each individual's work load.

As for the officer/NCO relationship not working for CAP......I have to say by empirical evidence.....it is working at the Nellis Composite Squadron just fine.

[ol'fido]

I am still trying to figure out what all the heartache about NCOs is on this forum. "There is no one for them to supervise in the normal military sense."  "They are managers where as officers are supervisors." "Officers have strategic vision and NCOs are more concerned about the tactical." "CAP NCOs are just a nuissance; they should just get with the program and become officers." Yadda, yadda, yadda. What a load of......

Unless you are a professional, full time CAP member, NCOs in CAP are just like anybody else with the exception that they probably have several years of experience in the real military that CAP "officers" may or may not have. They go to the same meetings, read the same regs, participate in the same activities, see the same things, and work the same problems as anybody else.

The person's effectiveness is not determined by the insignia on their arm or their collar, but on the material between their ears.

[lordmonar]

I just have one thing to say about this, and CAP NCO's, please forgive me and take note:

You're not in the military anymore.  Forget the rank you had/earned/are proud of. 

Thank you for your service.  I mean that from the bottom of my heart.

The WORST type of CAP member is a former RM member who is living in the past.  We don't do it the way you did in the army/air force/whatever.

Welcome to Civil Air Patrol.  Now get with the program.  Thank you.

Thanks Woodsy....I feel so loved and appreciated.   You just characterized my 11 years of service to CAP as a pipe dream of living the glory days of my misspent youth.

Thank you for your service.

[Eclipse]

Then why do we have rank at all?

I don't know - you tell me, because frankly the grade structure in CAP is about as effective as woodland camo is for ES.

But I can say for sure that the "fix" isn't going to be further fracturing an already dysfunctional system by dividing the membership into
an artificial caste system, and giving some members who "know better" actual license to "not be bothered".

Here's another question.  Who are you "tactically leading"?   There's no enlisted in CAP, so how does being an NCO in CAP
work when you're "tactically leading" officers?

In my current unit we are in a major re-org.....with the idea to increase the numbers of people so that we can LIMIT the scope of each individual's work load.

Excellent, everyone should be working towards that.  You're going to need about 75-100 seniors to make that happen.  Which, based on 20-1 and
other staffing and duty expectations is about what the current CAP unit model expects, even if that isn't a reasonable position these days (if it ever was).

Unless you are a professional, full time CAP member, NCOs in CAP are just like anybody else with the exception that they probably have several years of experience in the real military that CAP "officers" may or may not have. They go to the same meetings, read the same regs, participate in the same activities, see the same things, and work the same problems as anybody else.

But that's the real issue, it's not about insignia, we have that now and some NCOs say that isn't enough.  Lordmonar and others are advocating an actual NCO / officer program
with actual separation of duties and function.

[Woodsy]

I just have one thing to say about this, and CAP NCO's, please forgive me and take note:

You're not in the military anymore.  Forget the rank you had/earned/are proud of. 

Thank you for your service.  I mean that from the bottom of my heart.

The WORST type of CAP member is a former RM member who is living in the past.  We don't do it the way you did in the army/air force/whatever.

Welcome to Civil Air Patrol.  Now get with the program.  Thank you.

Thanks Woodsy....I feel so loved and appreciated.   You just characterized my 11 years of service to CAP as a pipe dream of living the glory days of my misspent youth.

Thank you for your service.

Why do you still wear your old rank?  Why not wear what the vast majority of senior members wear?  I can think of no reason why someone would join this organization and opt to wear what they wore in the military, instead of what is customary for the majority of members- other than living in the past and just being too darn stubborn to change. 

I'm asking this as a serious question, not stirring the pot.  I'd really like your thoughts on it.  Everything I've heard from other CAP NCO's had "living in the past" written all over it. 

[Eclipse]

Well, to be fair, the same could be said for those who request military equivalence to officer grade and those who wear military badges on their CAP uniform (not my stance, just sayin').
Neither has any real bearing or relevance to CAP.

[tsrup]

I just have one thing to say about this, and CAP NCO's, please forgive me and take note:

You're not in the military anymore.  Forget the rank you had/earned/are proud of. 

Thank you for your service.  I mean that from the bottom of my heart.

The WORST type of CAP member is a former RM member who is living in the past.  We don't do it the way you did in the army/air force/whatever.

Welcome to Civil Air Patrol.  Now get with the program.  Thank you.

Thanks Woodsy....I feel so loved and appreciated.   You just characterized my 11 years of service to CAP as a pipe dream of living the glory days of my misspent youth.

Thank you for your service.

Why do you still wear your old rank?  Why not wear what the vast majority of senior members wear? I can think of no reason why someone would join this organization and opt to wear what they wore in the military, instead of what is customary for the majority of members- other than living in the past and just being too darn stubborn to change. 

I'm asking this as a serious question, not stirring the pot.  I'd really like your thoughts on it.  Everything I've heard from other CAP NCO's had "living in the past" written all over it.

So where does that leave officers who enter the program and wear the same grade they wore while in active duty?  Are they living in the past as well?

[Woodsy]

I just have one thing to say about this, and CAP NCO's, please forgive me and take note:

You're not in the military anymore.  Forget the rank you had/earned/are proud of. 

Thank you for your service.  I mean that from the bottom of my heart.

The WORST type of CAP member is a former RM member who is living in the past.  We don't do it the way you did in the army/air force/whatever.

Welcome to Civil Air Patrol.  Now get with the program.  Thank you.

Thanks Woodsy....I feel so loved and appreciated.   You just characterized my 11 years of service to CAP as a pipe dream of living the glory days of my misspent youth.

Thank you for your service.

Why do you still wear your old rank?  Why not wear what the vast majority of senior members wear? I can think of no reason why someone would join this organization and opt to wear what they wore in the military, instead of what is customary for the majority of members- other than living in the past and just being too darn stubborn to change. 

I'm asking this as a serious question, not stirring the pot.  I'd really like your thoughts on it.  Everything I've heard from other CAP NCO's had "living in the past" written all over it.

So where does that leave officers who enter the program and wear the same grade they wore while in active duty?  Are they living in the past as well?

The issue of grade advancement is a whole different can of worms itself. 

[Woodsy]

Well, to be fair, the same could be said for those who request military equivalence to officer grade and those who wear military badges on their CAP uniform (not my stance, just sayin').
Neither has any real bearing or relevance to CAP.

Fair enough.

[EMT-83]

^ And there are a lot more "issues" with former officers than there ever will be with NCOs.

[Eclipse]

^ And there are a lot more "issues" with former officers than there ever will be with NCOs.

I'd have to agree, some of the people I've seen struggle the most, especially early-on, are current or former
military officers that just can't get their head around CAP.

[Tim Day]

I'll go ahead and assert that, arguably, among the worst members of any organization are former members of other organizations who are living in the past. It's the living in the past part that's the problem.

Many of the skills, customs, and courtesies I learned while serving as a Naval Officer are valuable to CAP, but the RM isn't the only place many of those skills can be learned, nor are all of those RM lessons applicable to CAP. Often one person's RM isn't even the same as another person's. But one of the things I learned in my part of the RM was to forgo what I learned when it's not appropriate for my current assignment...

I agree with both Eclipse and Lordmonar that our current grade structure doesn't really reflect anything useful. It's a system that seems to have evolved and inter-bred. It tries to communicate professional development level, assigned responsibility level, pre-CAP accomplishments, and longevity - and achieves none of those objectives. 

I'd support a grade structure where prior experience is good through Capt, but Maj and Lt Col are temporary grades assigned to Squadron and Group CCs (and maybe continued based on continued duties assigned). The grade structure could be extended to other staff positions (e.g., CDs are one grade lower than corresponding CC, etc).

That way one could look across a room and tell what level of responsibility has been assigned to which individual. Until we have something like that, it doesn't really matter if the Squadron CC is a MSgt or a Col.