Should this really NOT happen?

[EMT-83]

Having once been named in an EO complaint from a member of a protected class (that was a fun call to receive from NHQ), my advice is to do your job correctly and consistently. If you can demonstrate that you hold everyone to the same standard, you should be fine. Pick and choose folks to apply a different standard to, and you could have some problems.

BTW, the complaint was not sustained. The EO compliance officer determined that while the person in question was a member of a protected class (as defined in the regulations), they were not exempt from meeting the same standard as any other member. So it works both ways.

[Major Lord]

It sure as heck hurts while its happening though, doesn't it? The "seriousness of the accusation" often eclipses the lack of a basis for a complaint, and you wear that specter of being racist, islamophobic, homophobic, or what have you ,even if cleared. Ask Herman Cain what its like to have a full scale attack of unverifiable charges brought, and being splattered with the blood of thought-crime. When you accuse someone of being a racist, etc, you murder his reputation, so you had better be prepared to draw swords and take on all comers if/when the accusations come. Glad it went your way EMT-83!

Major Lord

[lordmonar]

I have this feeling I'd rather be the defendant in the "your kid marched in the parade even though he wasn't on the roster and stubbed his toe" court case than the "your kid can't be a cadet because he wouldn't be a good fit for the organization" court case.

"Well why wouldn't he be a good cadet?"
"Isn't the purpose of the cadet program to instill values and grow youth into the leaders of the future?"
"Are you sure you didn't make that decision because of X reason?"  (gender, age, family status, other protected class?)
"Why would you not allow Johnny to be a member when Jordan is a member?  Jordan has more of Y problem than Johnny?"

Eek gads.  Nightmare.

The point is......Case A.  The complaintant...has a legal status....a person injured on CAP time with out CAP paying for the medical bills.
Case B is joe blow demanding that he join our organsiations......if he can't proove that it is discrimination based on one of the protected classess......he has no legal basis for his suit.

The commander can simply say "I don't like hime" and that is it. 

[Ron1319]

The rules are quoted above.  You can't deny someone membership just because you don't like them.

[Salty]

At a veterans day parade, there was this female cadet, who has most of her uniform put together, (we wore BDUs) and she ( for some weird reason) has not shown up on eservices yet. But she marched in the parade anyway with her sister, who has shown up on eservices, and has a CAPID. Shouldn't she refrain from marching in parades and other squadron activities until she gets her CAPID and is on eservices?

I joined CAP in February 1987.  I submitted my application, got issued blues, completed the 8 week T-Flight and was promoted to C/Amn.  I applied for and was accepted to encampment in August 1987.  I showed up with a note from my squadron commander that said "Cadet Stonewall is a member of CAP, however he has yet to get a CAP ID card.  We're checking on it".  Somehow my CAPF 15 got lost and I didn't show up on the MML until after encampment. 

So yeah, I attended encampment before I was officially a CAP member.  I'm pretty sure I flew an O-flight too.  But [darn] it, don't let that cadet march in the Veterans Day parade 

Same thing happened to me except I was working at the Red Cross command center and on ground teams the day after Hurricane Hugo tore through South Carolina.  I spent many hours loading and unloading trucks with food and water and I spent the rest of the time doing community surveys, road clearing, etc in Charleston, SC.  I had joined back in June of 1989, Hurricane Hugo landed in September of 1989 and I finally showed up on the membership roster in December 1989.

[SARDOC]

To the one comment - as a middle-aged White Anglo-Saxon Protestant Male with no physical or mental impairments - I'm not in any protected class that I know of.

So if you interviewed with a membership Committee that was predominately African American or Female and they said that you weren't a good fit for the organization because you were white or male that EEO would not apply to you? or that they felt that you weren't a good fit because you didn't go to the same church as them?  No protections would be afforded you by EEO because you are not a protected class?  Not the way I read it.  EEO is there to protect you as well not just to protect those that are the most frequent targets of discrimination.

[SARDOC]

Having once been named in an EO complaint from a member of a protected class (that was a fun call to receive from NHQ), my advice is to do your job correctly and consistently. If you can demonstrate that you hold everyone to the same standard, you should be fine. Pick and choose folks to apply a different standard to, and you could have some problems.

BTW, the complaint was not sustained. The EO compliance officer determined that while the person in question was a member of a protected class (as defined in the regulations), they were not exempt from meeting the same standard as any other member. So it works both ways.

Glad to hear everything worked out for you.  I was also subjected to an EEO complaint not through CAP though but through a former employer.  The Complaint was made against everyone assigned on my shift because we "failed to act" when witnessing a perceived violation.  Thankfully it was unsubstantiated against me because I was not actually working there that day.  The Supervisor was the only person who got jammed up over it and not because there was a substantiated claim but that he failed to report the complaint or document it in anyway.

That same employer was subjected to Department of Justice reviews and lawsuits every time we had a hiring or promotion process because we did not hire/promote enough minorities, not to mention all the EEO lawsuits by individuals...lets just say at one point it was indeed the flavor of the year.

As far as suitability for Civil Air Patrol membership I would just ask commanders to document specifics why somebody doesn't meet the criteria for a particular unit not just that they were Creepy...but why they were creepy.  What would be great would be quotes from a prospective member that are not consistent with our values and the like.

I agree anyone with common sense is going to document their concerns and will be able to use something more than "my spidey sense was tingling" when Creepy McWeirdington wanders into the unit and starts talking about how he wants to bring the Lord to our cadets (BTDT).

So if it's this guys religion to proselytize to others...Did you just reject him because of his religion?  Would he have a valid EEO complaint?   Could this guy maybe have been interested in the Character Development Instructor role? Could he have been trained on how we do Character development in CAP?  Don't know...just if he filed a complaint how did you document it.  I'm not saying anyone has the right to membership I'm just saying rejections need to be more specific than I just got a weird vibe

[Eclipse]

So if it's this guys religion to proselytize to others...Did you just reject him because of his religion?

((*sigh*)) Obviously not.  However, there is no role whatsoever for evangelizing in CAP, so someone walking in the door with no understanding of
our operations who begins to say things like that raise flag number one.

Would he have a valid EEO complaint?

I don't see how, since he was never denied membership.  As is generally the case with new people who walk in the door with a "storied" history and
an intention to "show us".  Simply asking direct questions about the claims he made and telling him directly how CAP works was enough for him to self-select.  The rule of thumb that many units have about requiring members to attend at least three meetings before a membership committee will consider them assists this as well.

[Eclipse]

To the one comment - as a middle-aged White Anglo-Saxon Protestant Male with no physical or mental impairments - I'm not in any protected class that I know of.

So if you interviewed with a membership Committee that was predominately African American or Female and they said that you weren't a good fit for the organization because you were white or male that EEO would not apply to you? or that they felt that you weren't a good fit because you didn't go to the same church as them?

I guess it would, and if they actually said that out loud, they deserve what they get, but again, I don't fall into any minority category that I know of, so it's highly unlikely that I (or my ilk) would find themselves in that situation.

[SARDOC]

I guess it would, and if they actually said that out loud, they deserve what they get, but again, I don't fall into any minority category that I know of, so it's highly unlikely that I (or my ilk) would find themselves in that situation.

That's one of the big misconceptions about EEO.  People often Confuse "minority group" and "protected class" those terms mean different things.  Everyone belongs to at least three protected classes.  While being a middle aged white anglo saxon protestant male you are probably in the category with the lowest complaint statistics it doesn't mean you can't be a victim of it...it's about the subjective situation.  I'm frequently in an area where members of the "nation of islam" (Malcom X's group) hand out pamphlets..and wouldn't you know it not only won't they give me a pamphlet but they won't even acknowledge my presence when asking for the time...I wonder why that is? (asked Rhetorically)  Let's just say discrimination exists even if it is not overt.


As Far as the Creepy McWeirdington guy...I'm glad that he self selected out. And from what I've gathered by watching your posts I doubt an EEO complaint would have been likely.  I was playing Devil's advocate based on the information that you posted...some may have seen it as possibly discriminatory...it's all about documentation and context as well as being able to articulate yourself.  You can never go wrong if you use an element in the policy that outlines acceptable reason to reject membership.  I still just ask people to avoid vague statements like "I just didn't like the guy" or "something just wasn't right" be specific.

As always thanks for the discussion.  I hope nobody gets bent out of shape for something that is hypothetical.

[Eclipse]

I hope nobody gets bent out of shape for something that is hypothetical.

Not me.

[Major Lord]

Hopefully, no CAP subject should be taboo here! On the other hand, many hypothetical scenarios presented in this argument are reduced to the absurd, and I think that we can actually take a look at the objective risks versus rewards without creating straw man arguments. Does a potential member have as many rights as an actual member to contest a decision based on EEO criteria? Probably, but as a never-accepted CAP member, their "rights" to our MARB procedures are essentially non-existent. Its much easier and far better  to deny a weirdo entrance than it is to 2b or covertly drive them out with harassment and give the weirdo an arguable case for hostile workplace or other position of standing. Kind of like getting those Kirby Vacuum sales people to go away....once they are in the house, little short of shotguns and exorcism can drive them out!

Eclipse, I try to describe myself as "un-hyphenated- American" ( an curious argument paradox in that it contains two hyphens.....) or better yet, a "Real American" to better describe our "protected class".

Major Lord

[Eclipse]

Eclipse, I try to describe myself as "un-hyphenated- American" ( an curious argument paradox in that it contains two hyphens.....) or better yet, a "Real American" to better describe our "protected class".

Heh - nice.

[SARDOC]

the unit commander and higher headquarters would need a very valid and documented reason (such as moral character) for the cadet to not be accepted by either the unit or higher headquarters.

One would think this would hold true for senior membership as well.

[EMT-83]

To bring this full-circle, but not necessarily related to the OP, your "valid and documented reason" would most likely be revealed during an interview with the membership committee.

If that interview is conducted with every prospective member, you're not discriminating against the occasional undesirable person, because everyone is subject to the same scrutiny.

I'm done. Whose turn to buy the donuts?

[Ron1319]

I haven't heard nearly as many good senior member donuts jokes since I've been out here in CAWG as I did when I was a cadet in OHWG.

[PHall]

I haven't heard nearly as many good senior member donuts jokes since I've been out here in CAWG as I did when I was a cadet in OHWG.

We don't do donuts in CAWG. We do burritos!

[SarDragon]

I haven't heard nearly as many good senior member donuts jokes since I've been out here in CAWG as I did when I was a cadet in OHWG.

We don't do donuts in CAWG. We do burritos!

And churros.   

[Майор Хаткевич]

I haven't heard nearly as many good senior member donuts jokes since I've been out here in CAWG as I did when I was a cadet in OHWG.

We don't do donuts in CAWG. We do burritos!

Are you saying there isn't a Dunkin Donuts on every corner?

[Major Lord]

I haven't heard nearly as many good senior member donuts jokes since I've been out here in CAWG as I did when I was a cadet in OHWG.

We don't do donuts in CAWG. We do burritos!

Half the solution to being addicted to doughnuts is admitting you have a problem......You are in denial. Work the steps.

Major Lord
p.s The cornerstone to all good police work is the doughnut! Don't blaspheme against them!