Should this really NOT happen?

Started by pilot97, November 12, 2011, 08:34:54 PM

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pilot97

November 12, 2011, 08:34:54 PM Last Edit: November 13, 2011, 04:20:30 AM by MIKE
At a veterans day parade, there was this female cadet, who has most of her uniform put together, (we wore BDUs) and she ( for some weird reason) :-\ has not shown up on eservices yet. But she marched in the parade anyway with her sister, who has shown up on eservices, and has a CAPID. Shouldn't she refrain from marching in parades and other squadron activities until she gets her CAPID and is on eservices?
C/MSgt.

Major Lord

#1
November 12, 2011, 09:24:40 PM
Although there may be a few guardhouse lawyer types out there that may disagree, she paid her fees, submitted an application, and the check was no-doubt cashed by our broke organization. There is no background checks for cadets, so she is a member from the time her application is submitted and dues are paid. She is not eligible to run missions yet, but unless your parade was an AFAM,  I say good on her for jumping in with both well-polished boots and "most of her uniform" although I am reluctant to ask what part(s) she was missing when she marched in the parade! FYI, most of the same rules apply to male cadets......Just out of curiosity, did you mean to suggest that the sisters applied simultaneously but only one was processed? I would not lose any sleep over that, as far as any CAP paper-pushing,  "Your mileage may vary". I remember how pleasantly surprised I was to see my Chuck Y. Aerospace award a couple of years after I took the test! ( In those dark days, it was a paper test, and passing it without benefit of an open book meant a big gold star on a certificate that I also did not see for a couple of years...)

Major Lord
"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee."

RiverAux

#2
November 12, 2011, 09:49:35 PM
No CAPID, no marchee.

Private Investigator

#3
November 12, 2011, 09:51:01 PM
NO! Liability issues.

jks19714

#4
November 12, 2011, 09:57:20 PM
Was she safety current?  No. then NO participation in any activity other than a safety meeting.

john, the safety nazi  ::)
Diamond Flight 88
W3JKS/AAT3BF/AAM3EDE/AAA9SL
Assistant Wing Communications Engineer

Short Field

#5
November 12, 2011, 11:47:38 PM
Quote from: Major Lord on November 12, 2011, 09:24:40 PM
There is no background checks for cadets, so she is a member from the time her application is submitted and dues are paid.
Totally agree.  We have an aggressive new member training program that regularly ends up with the official date the cadet joined CAP also being his/her DOR for promotion to C/Amn.
SAR/DR MP, ARCHOP, AOBD, GTM1, GBD, LSC, FASC, LO, PIO, MSO(T), & IC2
Wilson #2640

davidsinn

#6
November 13, 2011, 12:00:19 AM
Quote from: Short Field on November 12, 2011, 11:47:38 PM
Quote from: Major Lord on November 12, 2011, 09:24:40 PM
There is no background checks for cadets, so she is a member from the time her application is submitted and dues are paid.
Totally agree.  We have an aggressive new member training program that regularly ends up with the official date the cadet joined CAP also being his/her DOR for promotion to C/Amn.

How can a person pass a controlled test without being a member?
Former CAP Captain
David Sinn

SARDOC

#7
November 13, 2011, 12:02:22 AM
@Major Lord.

I'm sorry for being one of those Guard House Lawyers...But the Membership is not valid until after the application has been processed by NHQ and the member appears on the membership role.

From CAPR 39-2 Section 1-3
QuoteInitial membership commences on the date the membership application is processed by National Headquarters and the individual's name appears on the official membership database.

ol'fido

#8
November 13, 2011, 02:40:03 AM
Yes, according to regs the cadet should not have marched in the parade. However, here we have a situation where an at least 12 y.o. girl  in a CAP uniform is not allowed to participate in an activity that a 3 year old in a sequined body suit and twirling a baton can. Ironic ain't it. :o
Lt. Col. Randy L. Mitchell
Historian, Group 1, IL-006

RiverAux

#9
November 13, 2011, 02:51:23 AM
So, it would be okay for me to march with the local National Guard unit if I went out and bought a uniform even though I wasn't a member yet?  Unfortunate that this young (soon to be) cadet is being taught that regulations don't matter right from the beginning of her CAP career.

ol'fido

#10
November 13, 2011, 03:01:46 AM
Didn't say that did I. In fact, she should not have been allowed to march at all. If she is going to be in CAP for very long, she needs to learn how to deal with chicken---- ASAP and this would have been a perfect opportunity.
Lt. Col. Randy L. Mitchell
Historian, Group 1, IL-006

EMT-83

#11
November 13, 2011, 03:10:49 AM
Quote from: ol'fido on November 13, 2011, 02:40:03 AM
Yes, according to regs the cadet should not have marched in the parade. However, here we have a situation where an at least 12 y.o. girl  in a CAP uniform is not allowed to participate in an activity that a 3 year old in a sequined body suit and twirling a baton can. Ironic ain't it. :o

What does one have to do with the other?

Eclipse

#12
November 13, 2011, 04:43:07 AM
You're either a member or you aren't.  If you aren't, you don't get to play and you don't wear the uniform.

"That Others May Zoom"

Short Field

#13
November 13, 2011, 06:05:49 AM
So the Great Start program is a load of BS?  It has a five week schedule that results in the cadets promoting.  Week one is the initial open house with the parents.  They are training in week two.  According to you, they need to stand on the sidelines until their memberships have processed. 
SAR/DR MP, ARCHOP, AOBD, GTM1, GBD, LSC, FASC, LO, PIO, MSO(T), & IC2
Wilson #2640

Short Field

#14
November 13, 2011, 06:14:33 AM
Quote from: davidsinn on November 13, 2011, 12:00:19 AM
How can a person pass a controlled test without being a member?
By scoring 80%.   

When our membership board approves their membership application, we treat them like regular members.  The appplications are normally mailed to National the following day.  This is different than how we treat potential senior member.

What problems have we had doing this?  None.  What is the worse thing that can happen?  The cadet stops coming and the following week National approves his membership.  The Chapter One Leadership test gets compromised?  It is an open book test.       
SAR/DR MP, ARCHOP, AOBD, GTM1, GBD, LSC, FASC, LO, PIO, MSO(T), & IC2
Wilson #2640

NCRblues

#15
November 13, 2011, 06:18:57 AM
Quote from: Short Field on November 13, 2011, 06:14:33 AM
What is the worse thing that can happen?  The cadet stops coming and the following week National approves his membership.  The Chapter One Leadership test gets compromised?  It is an open book test.       

The "almost cadet" dies during a meeting. The parents read the regulations and realize the kid should not have been allowed to "play". They sue CAP for LOTS of money, and you personally for willful negligence.

The "almost cadet" assaults a member...

The "almost cadet" sexually harasses a member of the opposite sex...

The list is endless....
In god we trust, all others we run through NCIC

Ron1319

#16
November 13, 2011, 07:04:32 AM
Quote from: Short Field on November 13, 2011, 06:05:49 AM
So the Great Start program is a load of BS?  It has a five week schedule that results in the cadets promoting.  Week one is the initial open house with the parents.  They are training in week two.  According to you, they need to stand on the sidelines until their memberships have processed.

This is the best point in the thread.  PCR has said that cadets can not even drill until they are on the roster.  Stupid lawyers in my opinion (sorry Ned).  They shouldn't be wearing the uniform, yet, though.  I also think that signing the membership application is their waiver and at that point they should be covered under the insurance.  IN FACT, I think that any prospective cadet attending any meeting should be covered under the insurance and probably is.
Ronald Thompson, Maj, CAP
Deputy Commander, Squadron 85, Placerville, CA
PCR-CA-273
Spaatz #1319

Eclipse

#17
November 13, 2011, 01:03:03 PM
Quote from: Short Field on November 13, 2011, 06:05:49 AMAccording to you, they need to stand on the sidelines until their memberships have processed.

That's according to the regs.  Just because Great Start conflicts with the regs doesn't change things.

"That Others May Zoom"

RADIOMAN015

#18
November 13, 2011, 02:38:25 PM
Quote from: SARDOC on November 13, 2011, 12:02:22 AM
@Major Lord.

I'm sorry for being one of those Guard House Lawyers...But the Membership is not valid until after the application has been processed by NHQ and the member appears on the membership role.

From CAPR 39-2 Section 1-3
QuoteInitial membership commences on the date the membership application is processed by National Headquarters and the individual's name appears on the official membership database.
Hmm, in this world of computerization, one would think that a unit upon receipt of the application & payment could enter the information to the CAP computer system & get a temporary ID card & CAP ID number for the cadet on the same day the application was received by the unit and properly completed.   The application could than be scanned or snail mailed down to National HQ ??? ???
RM 

SARDOC

#19
November 13, 2011, 03:25:40 PM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on November 13, 2011, 02:38:25 PM
Quote from: SARDOC on November 13, 2011, 12:02:22 AM
@Major Lord.

I'm sorry for being one of those Guard House Lawyers...But the Membership is not valid until after the application has been processed by NHQ and the member appears on the membership role.

From CAPR 39-2 Section 1-3
QuoteInitial membership commences on the date the membership application is processed by National Headquarters and the individual's name appears on the official membership database.
Hmm, in this world of computerization, one would think that a unit upon receipt of the application & payment could enter the information to the CAP computer system & get a temporary ID card & CAP ID number for the cadet on the same day the application was received by the unit and properly completed.   The application could than be scanned or snail mailed down to National HQ ??? ???
RM

But what if the Check they wrote you bounces or is written from a closed account?  How do you verify that at the unit level? It won't be processed until the payment clears at NHQ.
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