CAP NCO's

[lordmonar]

Wow is all I can say   This seems to be such a "hot topic"...

Frankly retired/former military NCO's (and also officers) are not flocking to join Civil Air Patrol.  I highly doubt that any changes in any program(s) is going to change that.

No here in Vegas.  We run about 40-50% veterain.

Also for those senior members that have elected to wear their NCO grade, are they complaining about anything involving the current program which warrants change

No way to progress....if you choose the NCO path and are an E-5 you stay a SSgt forever.
No real "mission"......what exactly are the NCO's to do.
No National Tracking....until very recently EServices did not even track NCO ranks.

There's a finite amount of volunteer time and CAP money available.  This is a "non issue" involving a small group of volunteer personnel that only seems to be an issue here on CAPTALK.

Volunteers are the ones following this up......and no one is spending any money.

[ol'fido]

1. What are NCOs to do: Pretty much anything any other senior member does in CAP like fly airplanes, lead ground teams, serve on squadron staffs, etc. Except for wing command and up, there really is no grade specific jobs that I can think of. Simply because we think of some jobs as being an officer slot such as squadron command or group command doesn't mean that we have to have officer's fill the slot's.

Most of the people I know in CAP who know what they are doing don't care about the next guys rank. They only care about "Does this person have the quals and know what they are doing." The people who fret and dither about "Well, he's just a First Lieutenant.( heck, the guy that ran the USAFs special operations in the Korean War was a Master Sergeant. )We can't have him doing so and so." are the ones that worry about the piss ants while the elephants are stomping them to death.

2. How do they progress?: They don't through CAP. But if the RM promotes them, they are probably more deserving and have worked harder at it than they would have for a CAP officer promotion. If they are retired, then they probably don't care about it too much. Kind of like those "Captains for Life" we talk about so much on here. Besides, three or four officer promotions in CAP and they are most likely done anyway. If I was to change anything, I would have a transition program that would allow NCOs to switch over to the officer grades based on their NCO rank IF THEY SO DESIRE. Let them do the all the PD levels as NCOs if they want. That's what waivers are for.

A lot of former or current NCOs probably like the ability to be an officer in CAP. Look at our current National CC. OTOH, a lot of these guys probably like the "NCO Mindset" and want to keep that going in CAP. If it's not costing us anything, who cares? Let the NCO program go on like it is.

[Short Field]

An NCO may be more approachable to cadets and new SM then some Lt Col or Capt.  As most people who are veterans were enlisted....they are more familiar and comfortable with dealing with NCO's then with an officer....that could translate into more effective education and training to cadets and new members.
Some perspective CAP members don't feel comfortable putting on officer ranks.....offering the NCO option may generate more recruitment.

Then someone has a problem they need to get over fairly fast.

[JC004]

1. What are NCOs to do: Pretty much anything any other senior member does in CAP like fly airplanes, lead ground teams, serve on squadron staffs, etc. Except for wing command and up, there really is no grade specific jobs that I can think of. Simply because we think of some jobs as being an officer slot such as squadron command or group command doesn't mean that we have to have officer's fill the slot's.

Most of the people I know in CAP who know what they are doing don't care about the next guys rank. They only care about "Does this person have the quals and know what they are doing." The people who fret and dither about "Well, he's just a First Lieutenant.( heck, the guy that ran the USAFs special operations in the Korean War was a Master Sergeant. )We can't have him doing so and so." are the ones that worry about the piss ants while the elephants are stomping them to death.

2. How do they progress?: They don't through CAP. But if the RM promotes them, they are probably more deserving and have worked harder at it than they would have for a CAP officer promotion. If they are retired, then they probably don't care about it too much. Kind of like those "Captains for Life" we talk about so much on here. Besides, three or four officer promotions in CAP and they are most likely done anyway. If I was to change anything, I would have a transition program that would allow NCOs to switch over to the officer grades based on their NCO rank IF THEY SO DESIRE. Let them do the all the PD levels as NCOs if they want. That's what waivers are for.

A lot of former or current NCOs probably like the ability to be an officer in CAP. Look at our current National CC. OTOH, a lot of these guys probably like the "NCO Mindset" and want to keep that going in CAP. If it's not costing us anything, who cares? Let the NCO program go on like it is.

If things are the same, what is the point?

Can some people help me understand how this should work? 

An example:  What would be the difference between a junior NCO working in logistics, a senior NCO working in logistics, and an officer working in logistics?

How would we change our leadership and management training?  Would we need airman/junior NCO/senior NCO/officer training for all these different things?

[Hardshell Clam]

The fact is: Its a non-issue except in the minds of some who just don't like it for one reason or another.

These reasons run from "they just do not think its necessary"  or maybe "NCO chevron envy"? .

But the bottom line is, as I have pointed out, people in a much "higher pay grade" think that it is necessary, period. Not going to get into a silly on-line debate with some who seem to want to be negative for its own sake. 

Please feel free to walk up to a CAP NCO and tell him your thoughts as to why they are "just wanting to be different" or in useless grade, etc.

Thank you.

[arajca]

Please feel free to walk up to a CAP NCO and tell him your thoughts as to why they are "just wanting to be different" or in useless grade, etc.

Since they are so few and far between, this is not something most of us can do.

[Eclipse]

But the bottom line is, as I have pointed out, people in a much "higher pay grade" think that it is necessary, period. Not going to get into a silly on-line debate with some who seem to want to be negative for its own sake. 

Then here's a suggestion - don't.
Last I checked, CAPTalk participation was not a requirement for membership. However if you choose to participate, calling said participation "silly" would seem to be somewhat mentally circular.

Your repeated comments about "the brass", and "higher pay grades", etc., etc., would appear to many that you really don't "get" CAP.

Our appointed leaders certainly don't need rank-and-file membership approval to take actions that are within their constitutional authority, but they do need the benevolence and comprehensive understanding of the membership to actually make those actions function, else they are left with a situation where instead of making things "better", as intended, they cause additional fractures in already broken structures.  Hard-inserting NCO's into the existing structure of CAP, without a full reboot of the grade structure and some practical way to separate duties and status, will just further confuse things, and if nothing else, we all know that military NCO's are nothing if not "sure" of their place in the universe.  Drop them into CAP, where their stripes will make them no more "enlisted^®" (from a duty perspective), then a Major is an "Officer^®", and you'll leave them floundering to figure what the heck our deal is.  Floundering members who joined an organization with an assumption of some functioning structure are generally referred to as "Ex- members".

Further, it is, frankly, "easier" (in the Grande CAP Scheme^®) to be an enlisted airman than an officer from the the perspective of self-initiation.
When you consider the veritable lack of management training provided to CAP members, you risk having an entire cadre of members who will simply wait to be led, and only do exactly what they are told, which is 180^°off of what we need in a volunteer organization with inconsistent leadership.
Lord knows we have some members who need to be "dial-ed down" in their "enthusiasm", but for the most part, it is only those self-starters in CAP who get things done, no matter which mission or niche they choose.

Please feel free to walk up to a CAP NCO and tell him your thoughts as to why they are "just wanting to be different" or in useless grade, etc.

Already have, which includes any number considering which way to go within CAP where I strongly recommended they take the "standard" officer track.
Of course I didn't adopt a confrontational attitude about it.
In more cases than not, the respective commander thought it would be "neat", with no consideration for the long-term ramifications for the member.
Once they better understood CAP, the response was to accept the officer appointments and move on.

[lordmonar]

The fact is: Its a non-issue except in the minds of some who just don't like it for one reason or another.

These reasons run from "they just do not think its necessary"  or maybe "NCO chevron envy"? .

But the bottom line is, as I have pointed out, people in a much "higher pay grade" think that it is necessary, period. Not going to get into a silly on-line debate with some who seem to want to be negative for its own sake. 

Please feel free to walk up to a CAP NCO and tell him your thoughts as to why they are "just wanting to be different" or in useless grade, etc.

Thank you.

Done that been there.  Told that same exact thing to the pervious Cheif Master Sergeant of the CAP.

[Hardshell Clam]

"Your repeated comments about "the brass", and "higher pay grades", etc., etc., would appear to many that you really don't "get" CAP."

I "get" the CAP just fine. The use of "brass and/or higher pay grades" is figurative rather then literal, except in cases of USAF oversite, approval and legal review, etc. But you knew that. 

After reviewing a lot of your posts, it is you I don't get. You seem to like confrontation and use your bating remarks as a means to that end.

We can agree to disagree.

[Eclipse]

You still haven't answered the question about the CAP experience you have that informs your opinion.

[AirDX]

This thread has far outlived its usefulness.

[JC004]

This thread has far outlived its usefulness.

must...resist...lock button...finger-twitch.

15 pages, actively following, and I still don't see full answers to the basics I asked about a few posts ago...  I think they're pretty important questions.

[Ned]

An example:  What would be the difference between a junior NCO working in logistics, a senior NCO working in logistics, and an officer working in logistics?

I can't really speak to logistics, but if we had a mature CAP enlisted/NCO structure in CP, at the squadron I would expect to see SSgts and Tsgts working more or less directly with the troops; directly monitoring training and mentoring the cadet instructors for things like D & C, and acting as instrucors.  I would normally expect senior NCOs (MSgt +) to do things like training schedules, coordinate and rehearse instructors, mentor both the junior NCOs and the cadet staff, conduct CP-related professional development for the senior member side, and also serve in additional duties for the unit as a whole (things like unit First Sergeant, Personnel and Admin NCO, etc.).

At the group, wing, and region level I would expect senior NCOs to work as SMEs in CP.  I would probably see them working on CI and SAV teams, maintaining associated records and providing administrative support, directly coordinating with their counterparts at lower and higher levels, planning CP activities at their level, producing reports and maintaining electronic data, and mentoring and training NCOs at lower echelons.

At things like encampments, NCOs would provide valuble support on the tactical staff, liaisoning with host facilities, as well as serving as  logisticians and administrators. 

And at all levels, NCOs - like all SMs - would be eligible for the dreaded "similar and related duties as reguired." 

Remember, this is a vision for a mature and self-generating enlisted structure, NOT what we have today.  Today, our NCOs come to us pre-trained in leadership and organizatoinal skills by Uncle Sam and all we have to add are the CAP-specific skills.

How would we change our leadership and management training?  Would we need airman/junior NCO/senior NCO/officer training for all these different things?

As currently configured, no.  As I pointed out, the advantage of NCOs is that they come to us pre-screened and substantially pre-trained.  They would need pretty much the same training the rest of us gets.

But if (and that is a big if) we ever moved to a fully integrated enlisted strucutre, I would expect to see substantial changes in the PD structure with training appropriate for airmen, NCOs, and officers established.

[Eclipse]

I would say to be necessary, let alone effective, you'd need a CAP with at least twice as many members.  In most units there'd be no "troops" to interact with.

Also, nearly all the duties you are assigning to NCO's are literally administrative and management in nature - appropriate as-is today for officers.

I could see, to some extent, a way to make this work with NCO's as the small-squad leaders of those who have no interest in anything but "doing" - flying,
GT, and other hands-on operational specialties with no interest in command or admin, but since we are probably a decade away from having that many members, not really much point to the discussion.

We are also ignoring the fact that commanders and officers join and stay in CAP specifically to "do", not to admin and manage.  The same people who
run the units also serve as drill instructors for cadets because that's what they want to do, or ES ground work, radios, flying, etc.  Separate them even more from the doing than they are today (by all the time-wasting, check-boxing), and you will eventually level out to an all NCO-CAP, with few officers in the mix at the unit level.

You'll also likely have a leaderless mid-section as those who are happy enough to lead as long as they can "do" quit or drop to the NCO's so they can continue to "do".

[Spaceman3750]

You mean to tell me that everyone doesn't wear a stack of hats? Blastphemy!

Some days I think it would be nice to just be a SAR guy and coordinate a squadron color guard. Then I think about how bored I would be...

[Ned]

I would say to be necessary, let alone effective, you'd need a CAP with at least twice as many members.  In most units there'd be no "troops" to interact with.

Interestingly, in most military and paramilitary situations, when the unit is relatively small it is the enlisted structure that predominates rather than the officers.

The modern CAP is a little unusual in that regard.

[Eclipse]

CAP is unusual in a lot of ways, to your example, many of our Wings are smaller than USAF units, and in the real world
would probably not be a "wing", nor have 35% of the manpower as field-grade officers.

And I wouldn't necessarily disagree that with a full reboot it might not make more sense to artificially suppress the grades down to the company level for those who choose not to move out of the unit, and in turn create an enlisted corps, those sprinkling in Warrant Officers might have a better spin.

But that means we have to instill and enforce the "up or out", the lack of which is really at the corps of a lot of the issues with the CAP grade structure.
In a perfect world, you wouldn't get the grade unless you're willing to move "up", and when there's no more "up", it's either stay lateral or go "out".
No more full Colonels coming back to run squadrons or be a unit Asst. Admin officer.  We all know why that won't work in the volunteer paradigm.

Another speed bump - the circular nature of CAP's command and staff structure.

We have members who are triple+ billeted all over the echelon map - the Wing PDO is also a Unit LG (in three different units across two different groups), Region Historian, Group CPO, commander of the annual cadet competition, and PIC of the SLS/CLC.  I've argued for years that this causes more trouble than it is worth, but without an "up or out" career path, and considering the staffing issues we have, it is what it is.

It's bad enough that we have Captains commanding Lt. Colonels in a lot of cases, now we're going to add NCO's to that list?  How ridiculous will it be
to a military NCO when the Wing CC "reports" to an E-5 to receive an award, or has to discipline a general officer?  Or do we limit the ability of the NCOs to do those jobs, in which case we take people who are otherwise acknowledged as capable leaders and project managers and tell them "no, you can't do that because you are an NCO".

And before anyone repeats the mantra of "Well, our current system is already broken, so what difference does it make?", I'd say:

A) You don't fix something by creating additional fractures.
B) If it doesn't make any difference, then it doesn't make any difference, and we should leave things as-is.

[BillB]

MY only problem with the CAP NCO program is the lack of the ability to promote. A retired AD Captain joins CAP and after training and TIG he can promote to Major. A retired E-5 joins CAP as an E-5, takes the same training earns Masters ratings in a couple of PD area and he is still not able to promote. What is the logic behind this? If CAP wants a strong NCO program, there has to be a way for NCOs to promote. We're talking CAP grades here which have nothing to do with the RM, so why not allow NCOs to promote to higher CAP NCO grades?

[lordmonar]

Eclipse....you keep pointing to the strange phenonomn of Lt's commanding Cols and then stretch the analogy that it would apply to NCO's.

Becasue one part of CAP is broken does not mean that this new proposed part of CAP would be broken too.

One......most people who opt for NCO stripes....would not want to command.....see NED's post on leadership styles.
Two......I agree it is silly that LT's and maybe E-5s are commadning.......so we simply add and enforce hard rank requirments for command and live with the consequence of units that don't have the right rank (they don't have to fold....they would just need a get well plan and some leadership assitance).

[sandman]

An example:  What would be the difference between a junior NCO working in logistics, a senior NCO working in logistics, and an officer working in logistics?

I can't really speak to logistics, but if we had a mature CAP enlisted/NCO structure in CP, at the squadron I would expect to see SSgts and Tsgts working more or less directly with the troops; directly monitoring training and mentoring the cadet instructors for things like D & C, and acting as instrucors.  I would normally expect senior NCOs (MSgt +) to do things like training schedules, coordinate and rehearse instructors, mentor both the junior NCOs and the cadet staff, conduct CP-related professional development for the senior member side, and also serve in additional duties for the unit as a whole (things like unit First Sergeant, Personnel and Admin NCO, etc.).

At the group, wing, and region level I would expect senior NCOs to work as SMEs in CP.  I would probably see them working on CI and SAV teams, maintaining associated records and providing administrative support, directly coordinating with their counterparts at lower and higher levels, planning CP activities at their level, producing reports and maintaining electronic data, and mentoring and training NCOs at lower echelons.

At things like encampments, NCOs would provide valuble support on the tactical staff, liaisoning with host facilities, as well as serving as  logisticians and administrators. 

And at all levels, NCOs - like all SMs - would be eligible for the dreaded "similar and related duties as reguired." 

Remember, this is a vision for a mature and self-generating enlisted structure, NOT what we have today.  Today, our NCOs come to us pre-trained in leadership and organizatoinal skills by Uncle Sam and all we have to add are the CAP-specific skills.

How would we change our leadership and management training?  Would we need airman/junior NCO/senior NCO/officer training for all these different things?

As currently configured, no.  As I pointed out, the advantage of NCOs is that they come to us pre-screened and substantially pre-trained.  They would need pretty much the same training the rest of us gets.

But if (and that is a big if) we ever moved to a fully integrated enlisted strucutre, I would expect to see substantial changes in the PD structure with training appropriate for airmen, NCOs, and officers established.

....Hey Mods, where's that "Like" button again on this thing?