CAP NCO's

[SarDragon]

Oh, I'm very aware of that. I worked at an AF PMEL for 10 months, and saw the AF system. Was not impressed.

[Hardshell Clam]

"As you are probably realizing, little of your prior service is really relevant in a practical way to CAP's unique structure"

I beg to differ! I bring to the table the leadership and professionalism I devolved as an NCO and while the CAP is a different progran, these skills do relate. 

[JC004]

"As you are probably realizing, little of your prior service is really relevant in a practical way to CAP's unique structure"

I beg to differ! I bring to the table the leadership and professionalism I devolved as an NCO and while the CAP is a different progran, these skills do relate.

Those are traits more so than skills. 

What sort of thing did you do in the military?

[Eclipse]

"As you are probably realizing, little of your prior service is really relevant in a practical way to CAP's unique structure"

I beg to differ! I bring to the table the leadership and professionalism I devolved as an NCO and while the CAP is a different progran, these skills do relate.

In what CAP capacity, and for how long?

Leadership and professionalism are pamphlet words.  What are you doing in CAP, that is in any way directly benefited by your NCO tenure that is somehow "unique"?

[Ned]

"As you are probably realizing, little of your prior service is really relevant in a practical way to CAP's unique structure"

I beg to differ! I bring to the table the leadership and professionalism I devolved as an NCO and while the CAP is a different progran, these skills do relate.

Those are traits more so than skills. 

It's not often I disagree with you, but on this I must.

Leadership is a skill (a learned proficiency) and not a trait (an inherent characteristic).

Indeed, one that we spend a whole lot of time teaching to our cadets (and a little time teaching to our seniors) to increase their proficiency in this critical area.  Some would say that the whole point of the cadet program is to teach leadership.

I welcome former NCOs with open arms, and value their proven leadership skills.
In most cases.

[lordmonar]

"As you are probably realizing, little of your prior service is really relevant in a practical way to CAP's unique structure"

I beg to differ! I bring to the table the leadership and professionalism I devolved as an NCO and while the CAP is a different progran, these skills do relate.

In what CAP capacity, and for how long?

Leadership and professionalism are pamphlet words.  What are you doing in CAP, that is in any way directly benefited by your NCO tenure that is somehow "unique"?

Well....you are the one who keeps saying "unique".  What is unique about CAP?

Leadership and management are almost a universal skill.....that is.....proficiancy in leadership in say Mc Donalds can translate into leadership in CAP.  The ins and out of making hamburgers, ordering product and paying bills may not help you in promoting cadets, manageing tests, and keeping inventory.....but the people skills the hard to teach skills definatly do translate.

I was a 22 year electronics technican for the USAF.....that's what I "did" for the the USAF.........but what I was really doing was leading my people, team, workcenter in doing electronics.

What leadership skills that I learned in the USAF translate directly to CAP's "unique" structure?

Menotrship
Organisation
Time Management
Resource Managment
Problem Solving
Stratigic Planning
Tactical Planning
Training
Counseling
Profession of Arms
Professional Ethics

These are all skills I learned and used in the USAF......tell me they are not needed in CAP?

[Eclipse]

First, I wasn't asking you...

Second, the point missed here is not that the skills aren't worthy or needed, just that they don't evaporate because a member can't sew on a CAP-version of stripes, any more than a military general loses his ability to lead just because the highest CAP grade he can wear is a cluster.

[lordmonar]

Okay.

But if we take that rank is a fiction anyway......where's the damage of allowing them to sew on their stripes?

[Eclipse]

Okay.

But if we take that rank is a fiction anyway......where's the damage of allowing them to sew on their stripes?

That's not what we're talking about here - they're just sewing things on today, whatever.  They aren't functioning any more NCO's in a CAP context than if they sewed their stripes on an ARC golf shirt.

This thread is about the move to actually ramp up an NCO corps within the senior member structure, which is a fruitless endeavor fraught with potential peril, again, a fully-volunteer organization with no seperation of duties, can't properly support a grade structure which inherently creates two classes of members, the shooters and the pointers.

[lordmonar]

What peril?

There is no difference now between the real shooters and the real pointer vs the all the other guys wearing silver oak leaves.....why should another useless rank bring more peril?

Having said all that.

If you go back to what I said before about the NCO program (or lack there of)....I agree that as is...there is no "need" for an NCO program.  Until/unless this supposed new program discribes what the duties of the NCO's would be...it will simply remain a clique of former NCO's being different.

Not to say that CAP NCO's aren't hard working, or not bringing something to the fight......it is what it is.

But..with that in mind.....where is the peril?
Tommorrow I can trade my major leaves for MSgt Stripes.....no one is going to die, no mission will be jepordised, no laws broken, no ethics compromised, no civilian confused......where is the peril?

[JC004]

YAY!  PERIL!

[Eclipse]

The peril is the same paradigm of misunderstanding that we have today with the officer grades, only worse, since you will
have a whole class of members who, by their very design are subordinate to another whole class, and that doesn't even include
those who will try to use it to their advantage by insinuating they are "above" the duties normally assigned to enlisted personnel.

Is an NCO who is a CAP pilot allowed to eat in the O-Club on base with the rest of his equal volunteer aircrew?
Would they fall-in differently in formation because they are NCO's vs. Officers?
What about NCO's serving as unit/group/wing CC's?  The situation of SMWOG CC's is bad enough, let alone the paradigm of a
wing or group CC, E-5, having to salute flight officers at an encampment or similar activity.
How about a whole class of members who feel they bear no responsibility for any of the planning or higher level jobs
because, by design, their class of membership is "doer" vs. "planner".  Awesome - we can add "I'm just here to teach drill" to the pile of "I'm just here to fly". T-Shirts.
Etc., etc.   All to no end.

The bottom line, is that this fulfills no need, serves no mission, incurs (minor) expense, and has the potential for bad feelings among
members.

Rather than constantly having to say "why not?", someone needs to say "why?"  The only attempt at any justification was the insinuation that NCO's would somehow enhance our cadet program through their NCO force power, which only works if and when they are wearing their stripes.

[lordmonar]

The peril is the same paradigm of misunderstanding that we have today with the officer grades, only worse, since you will
have a whole class of members who, by their very design are subordinate to another whole class, and that doesn't even include
those who will try to use it to their advantage by insinuating they are "above" the duties normally assigned to enlisted personnel.

Is an NCO who is a CAP pilot allowed to eat in the O-Club on base with the rest of his equal volunteer aircrew?

No....not unless AD NCO's could.

Would they fall-in differently in formation because they are NCO's vs. Officers?

No

What about NCO's serving as unit/group/wing CC's?

Easy fix...make minimun ranks for these positions....which we should have any ways.

The situation of SMWOG CC's is bad enough, let alone the paradigm of a  wing or group CC, E-5, having to salute flight officers at an encampment or similar activity.

No different then the CMSAF having to salute some brand new Army WO-1 right out of WO school.

How about a whole class of members who feel they bear no responsibility for any of the planning or higher level jobs
because, by design, their class of membership is "doer" vs. "planner".

As opposed to all the Level 5 Lt Cols we have now that do nothing but show up for SAREX's and O-rides?

Awesome - we can add "I'm just here to teach drill" to the pile of "I'm just here to fly". T-Shirts. Etc., etc.   All to no end.

You keep bringing that subject up.  The AD cook....is there just took.  The AD cop is there to patrol the base.  The AD pilot is there to fly.  You should not be expecting everyone to be everything in CAP.  I got a SM (2d Lt) who is our vehicle guy.  That's all he does, that is all he wants to do.  I got several SMs (2d Lts and 1st Lts) who only want to do admin and supply.  I got a Lt Col who only does Character Development.  Nothing wrong with these officers and no one should ever questions their dedication to the program that they also don't want to be observes, GTLs, Comm, CP, AE and the other 700 jobs we have to do in CAP.

[quoteThe bottom line, is that this fulfills no need, serves no mission, incurs (minor) expense, and has the potential for bad feelings among members.[/quote]  So.....the only "perils" is that is incurs (minor) expenses and may create bad feelings.  I think I can live with that.

Rather than constantly having to say "why not?", someone needs to say "why?"  The only attempt at any justification was the insinuation that NCO's would somehow enhance our cadet program through their NCO force power, which only works if and when they are wearing their stripes.

Like anything.....there are good sides and bad sides to any incentive program.  An NCO may be more approachable to cadets and new SM then some Lt Col or Capt.  As most people who are veterans were enlisted....they are more familiar and comfortable with dealing with NCO's then with an officer....that could translate into more effective education and training to cadets and new members.
Some perspective CAP members don't feel comfortable putting on officer ranks.....offering the NCO option may generate more recruitment.

[Eclipse]

It is different because CAP is different, and the majority of people have no clue why an NCO is different than an officer.

You're suggesting the very separation of duties and grade requirements that are literally impossible in our understaffed reality of today's CAP.

I would argue that an E-8 or 9 is as capable, if not more so, than an O6 to be a Wing CC, since CAP is really run more like a small squad, etc., than
at the strategic level a wing should be, so we grow or accept a capable Senior NCO and then tell him he can never command anything because "NCO's aren't commanders"?

Or worse, we bump him from E-9 to O-6 the weekend he is appointed as Wing CC?  What's the point of that.

As to members reluctant to put on Officer grade?  They need to get over themselves and have a conversation with someone who actually
understands how CAP works and move on.  Most of that comes from wives tales and fundamental misinformation.

[Ned]

It is different because CAP is different, and the majority of people have no clue why an NCO is different than an officer.

CAP is slightly different, but it shouldn't be.  If more people had a clue how and why an NCO is different than an officer, then CAP wouldn't be different at all.  One of those "chicken and egg" things, I guess.

You're suggesting the very separation of duties and grade requirements that are literally impossible in our understaffed reality of today's CAP.

You may be the prisoner of your own experience here.  Pat is pointing out that in his CAP reality, many members tend to be fairly specialized in task and training.  Mission pilots being a good example.  Stereotypical admin or finance types being another.

I spend a lot of time with the CP contingent.  The great majority of whom spend most of their time doing CP (and the necessary supporting tasks.)

It would be nice if we all were trained and resourced to do all possible jobs at all levels, but for all practical purposes most CAP members are indeed specialized in a duty and serve in an roughly appropriate grade for their duties.

I would argue that an E-8 or 9 is as capable, if not more so, than an O6 to be a Wing CC, since CAP is really run more like a small squad, etc., than
at the strategic level a wing should be, so we grow or accept a capable Senior NCO and then tell him he can never command anything because "NCO's aren't commanders"?

Actually, I kind of agree with you here.  Not because the average E-8 or E-9 isn't as capable as most CAP O5 and O6s, but because our O5s and O6s are drastically undertrained and resourced to lead at the strategic level they are called upon to do.

As to members reluctant to put on Officer grade?  They need to get over themselves and have a conversation with someone who actually understands how CAP works and move on.  Most of that comes from wives tales and fundamental misinformation.

Or maybe the members eager to put on Officer grade with nothing more than a GED, a weekend at Level 1, and a Technician rating need to "get over themselves" and have a conversation with someone who actually understands how CAP and the military work and move on.

Just sayin'.

[lordmonar]

What Ned Said! 

My bottom line take away is......there is no need for CAP to have an NCO corps...but equally there is no reason can't have NCOs.

Given some fore thought and a some good experince dedicated inital cadre we could build an NCO program that actually improves the overall leadership and managment of CAP.

[Hardshell Clam]

"What sort of thing did you do in the military?"

Field Radioman (Now called Operator & Maintainer).
Military Police
NCOIC of Intelligence Section
NCOIC Communications Section.
and lastly, Special Agent (Criminal Investigator)

In the USCG AUX I was a boatman.

I was crossed trained as a Chaparral Missile Crewman and and Medic.  The missile was a volunteer deal after Vietnam as the MOS could not get up to needed strength, so I trained in the evenings after my regular duty so they could have a crew if the "[Filter Subversion]" hit the fan.

The medic thing was just on a lark. We were on a German base and they did the MP stuff at the gates and I had time to kill so I took some classes and took the test. The old man thought it was a good idea as we only had a medic on station and he was not required to be there 24/7 so we had to call the locals for emergencies or transport for about 20  miles to our main station.

[ol'fido]

I personally would like to see more NCOs in CAP. I would like to see them take the lead in CP by serving as DCCs and Leadership Officer slots. I really think that having NCOs as advisers would turn the CAC program at all levels into a real winner because the NCOs are used to serving as "senior enlisted advisors. Training and advising are what they do.


In ES, rank is irrelevant for the most part. People at a mission don't look at rank for much. They look at qualifications and attitude. There isn't the hard separation of officers and "other ranks" in the military of today like you might have seen 40 or 50 years ago. Clubs are "consolidated" and there is less sense of different "classes" when talking about Officers vs. NCOs. Look at an aircrew in grabbing a bite to eat while their C-130 or C-17 is being refueled. You will see a bunch of people who work together everyday and act like it.

I have seen some of the people in CAP who make it to Major or Lt Col. How they did it is beyond me. How they continue to function in the program is beyond me as well. Now I realize that it's not a hard and fast rule, but I'm willing to bet that when I see an NCO in CAP that is wearing E-8 or E-9 stripes that this individual has got something on the ball. In this day and age in the RM, a E-5 or E-6 has more than likely had more PD and leadership training than  most CAP officers who aren't prior military let alone an E-8 or E-9. Most people in CAP will recognize this and treat the NCOs with the appropriate amount of respect. If they don't, I have met few senior NCOs who were reluctant to respectfully tell a junior officer to "go pound sand" when it was appropriate.

Plus, when a person works their way up in the enlisted ranks to senior NCO grade, many of them see it as a step DOWN to go to a junior officer rank and when you are an E-9, even Lt Col is sort of considered  a "junior" officer. These guys are used to dealing with O-6 and up. They are NCOs through and through and that's the way they want it. They don't see themselves as an "under" class nor are they treated like it in the RM.

[Ford73Diesel]

Ol' Fido- I agree 100% with what you just said.

The separation is not what it used to be (although I can't say that for sure, because I was not alive 40 or 50 years ago) The caste system in the military between officers and enlisted does not need to exist in CAP.

I think it is silly to say "Being an NCO in the military has nothing to do with CAP." How does serving in the military not aid in serving in a paramilitary auxiliary  organization? Sure it does not make you an expert, but I'm betting they (ex-military) can pick up the differences fast.  Running a military based cadet program helps if you have military (or former) members. YMMV If they want to have stripes on their sleeve, let them.

[RiverAux]

In ES, rank is irrelevant for the most part.

One proposal floating around here on CAPTalk (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=1425.msg20479#msg20479) is to base CAP rank on ES qualifications so that there is at least some correlation between rank and responsibility.  Its certainly not perfect, but gets us closer to it than any other proposal on the table.  One of the big complaints about that system is that it obviously emphasizes ES over CP (and I suppose AE, but that is such a non-factor in real CAP life that it hardly counts). 

I personally would like to see more NCOs in CAP. I would like to see them take the lead in CP by serving as DCCs and Leadership Officer slots.

Now, perhaps we could address the complaint about ES-based rank by explicitly making the leadership of the cadet program into a field primarily dominated by NCOs both by guiding former NCOs to the cadet program as well as making it possible to put non-prior service folks into CAP NCO ranks for those who just want to work with cadets.  If you think about it, the cadet program is primarily a training program and in the military most of the training is actually done by NCOs.  This wouldn't necessarily preclude CAP officers who got rank through their ES qualifications from participating in the cadet program just that they would probably represent a much smaller percentage of the adult leaders of cadets than they do now (nearly 100%).