CAP NCO's

[flyboy53]

No one has yet provided a single objective, mission-centric advantage to reinstating the enlisted corps to CAP, and I don't just mean this thread, I mean ever. 

Laying aside the excellent point that this is a rhetorical false dilemma because no one has ever needed to justify the officer corps of CAP with a "single objective, mission-centric reason" either, the direct reply is that of course we have.  You just don't happen to agree, so you continue to ignore it and pretend not to see it.

I could put 1200 CAP NCOs to work tomorrow by assigning one to each cadet and composite unit to serve as Leadership Officers.  Essentially by definituion, NCOs have years of experience mentoring and developing junior leaders in a military environment.  And since every single cadet must develop their followership and  leadership skills initially as an airman and cadet NCO, senior member NCOs could and would provide outstanding and needed support.

Of course, we have a terrific CP without significant numbers of CAP NCOs, so I can't claim that CAP NCOs are crucial. 

But our CP would be measurably better if we had one or two experienced NCOs at each cadet and composite unit.

But even more importantly, the program is in our current regulations and I have heard both the last and the current national commander specifically support having a vibrant and successful CAP NCO program.  As a staff guys and as a CAP officers, our job is to figure out how to make the program more successful and help it benefit CAP.

And I think that covers both you and me.

Wouldn't you agree?

Ill keep my opinion to myself over this argument, but i would like to point out one thing.

I think we need to be careful with blanket statements like "NCOs have years of experience mentoring and developing junior leaders in a military environment". That's not always the case....

Take for instance the AF. You can enlist as e-3 with some community college "art history" classes. If you don't get into trouble, and do well on your EPR and your PT test (and maybe brown nose a little) you can make e-4 six months early with Senior Airman Below the zone. You get deployed a few times, earn yourself a AFAM, take the Ssgt test and BAM a 4 year (or a little less) Ssgt wonder. Now, he/she is an NCO, but with considerable less experience mentoring than most civilians expect.

If CAP proudly says all NCO's have vast experiences, we could start running into problems when young Ssgt is made cadet mentor just because he/she joins and places stripes on his/her sleeve...

Anywho, just my one half of one cent worth of opinion.

And just what Air Force are you talking about? It certaining isn't ours. A person enlisting as an E-3 may put on E-4 below the zone in 12 months, maybe, if they're lucky. That doesn't mean their NCOs and it doesn't mean that they're any closer to E-5 because in the grand scheme of things, they're competing with a whole host of others who are senior to them in terms of time in service, grade, and even unique to their career fields.

Also, by that point, that airman has gone through at least one and possibly two levels of PME...not to mention technical and follow-in traing, which are far more intensive than some cadets will ever experience. I know that I did, because I had to complete the Air Force Supervisor's Course.

And, for the record, I don't know how many times in my AF career, did I find ex-CAP or JROTC cadets who hit a brick wall after intant E-3 and sat there for a while until they had the time in grade and service to compete with the others in their specific career field. I even met a few that never got above E-5. The one thing about instant E-3s that was common was that when they arrived in the field, they were expected to have the technical skills commensorate with their grade and it was always a disappointment when they didn't

Get your facts straight!

[Hardshell Clam]

"leaders in a military environment". That's not always the case....Take for instance the AF. You can enlist as e-3 with some community college "art history" classes. If you don't get into trouble, and do well on your EPR and your PT test (and maybe brown nose a little) you can make e-4 six months early with Senior Airman Below the zone. You get deployed a few times, earn yourself a AFAM, take the Ssgt test and BAM a 4 year (or a little less) Ssgt wonder. Now, he/she is an NCO, but with considerable less experience mentoring than most civilians expect".

Sounds to me like you would be getting a good NCO with 1 or 2 combat tours. But of course YOU have to add the "brown nose" part don't you?   

[PHall]

No one has yet provided a single objective, mission-centric advantage to reinstating the enlisted corps to CAP, and I don't just mean this thread, I mean ever. 

Laying aside the excellent point that this is a rhetorical false dilemma because no one has ever needed to justify the officer corps of CAP with a "single objective, mission-centric reason" either, the direct reply is that of course we have.  You just don't happen to agree, so you continue to ignore it and pretend not to see it.

I could put 1200 CAP NCOs to work tomorrow by assigning one to each cadet and composite unit to serve as Leadership Officers.  Essentially by definituion, NCOs have years of experience mentoring and developing junior leaders in a military environment.  And since every single cadet must develop their followership and  leadership skills initially as an airman and cadet NCO, senior member NCOs could and would provide outstanding and needed support.

Of course, we have a terrific CP without significant numbers of CAP NCOs, so I can't claim that CAP NCOs are crucial. 

But our CP would be measurably better if we had one or two experienced NCOs at each cadet and composite unit.

But even more importantly, the program is in our current regulations and I have heard both the last and the current national commander specifically support having a vibrant and successful CAP NCO program.  As a staff guys and as a CAP officers, our job is to figure out how to make the program more successful and help it benefit CAP.

And I think that covers both you and me.

Wouldn't you agree?

Ill keep my opinion to myself over this argument, but i would like to point out one thing.

I think we need to be careful with blanket statements like "NCOs have years of experience mentoring and developing junior leaders in a military environment". That's not always the case....

Take for instance the AF. You can enlist as e-3 with some community college "art history" classes. If you don't get into trouble, and do well on your EPR and your PT test (and maybe brown nose a little) you can make e-4 six months early with Senior Airman Below the zone. You get deployed a few times, earn yourself a AFAM, take the Ssgt test and BAM a 4 year (or a little less) Ssgt wonder. Now, he/she is an NCO, but with considerable less experience mentoring than most civilians expect.

If CAP proudly says all NCO's have vast experiences, we could start running into problems when young Ssgt is made cadet mentor just because he/she joins and places stripes on his/her sleeve...

Anywho, just my one half of one cent worth of opinion.

And just what Air Force are you talking about? It certaining isn't ours. A person enlisting as an E-3 may put on E-4 below the zone in 12 months, maybe, if they're lucky. That doesn't mean their NCOs and it doesn't mean that they're any closer to E-5 because in the grand scheme of things, they're competing with a whole host of others who are senior to them in terms of time in service, grade, and even unique to their career fields.

Also, by that point, that airman has gone through at least one and possibly two levels of PME...not to mention technical and follow-in traing, which are far more intensive than some cadets will ever experience. I know that I did, because I had to complete the Air Force Supervisor's Course.

And, for the record, I don't know how many times in my AF career, did I find ex-CAP or JROTC cadets who hit a brick wall after intant E-3 and sat there for a while until they had the time in grade and service to compete with the others in their specific career field. I even met a few that never got above E-5. The one thing about instant E-3s that was common was that when they arrived in the field, they were expected to have the technical skills commensorate with their grade and it was always a disappointment when they didn't

Get your facts straight!

Please get your facts straight too! There is no way to get E4 in under a year.
If you come in as a E3 and you're a real fast burner and haven't ticked off your Commander you might get E4 in 15 months.
That's if your Commander puts you in for a BTZ promotion and your Wing Commander approves it.
Both of which can be some pretty big ifs. The usual TIG to go from E3 to E4 is about 30 months.

[NCRblues]

No one has yet provided a single objective, mission-centric advantage to reinstating the enlisted corps to CAP, and I don't just mean this thread, I mean ever. 

Laying aside the excellent point that this is a rhetorical false dilemma because no one has ever needed to justify the officer corps of CAP with a "single objective, mission-centric reason" either, the direct reply is that of course we have.  You just don't happen to agree, so you continue to ignore it and pretend not to see it.

I could put 1200 CAP NCOs to work tomorrow by assigning one to each cadet and composite unit to serve as Leadership Officers.  Essentially by definituion, NCOs have years of experience mentoring and developing junior leaders in a military environment.  And since every single cadet must develop their followership and  leadership skills initially as an airman and cadet NCO, senior member NCOs could and would provide outstanding and needed support.

Of course, we have a terrific CP without significant numbers of CAP NCOs, so I can't claim that CAP NCOs are crucial. 

But our CP would be measurably better if we had one or two experienced NCOs at each cadet and composite unit.

But even more importantly, the program is in our current regulations and I have heard both the last and the current national commander specifically support having a vibrant and successful CAP NCO program.  As a staff guys and as a CAP officers, our job is to figure out how to make the program more successful and help it benefit CAP.

And I think that covers both you and me.

Wouldn't you agree?

Ill keep my opinion to myself over this argument, but i would like to point out one thing.

I think we need to be careful with blanket statements like "NCOs have years of experience mentoring and developing junior leaders in a military environment". That's not always the case....

Take for instance the AF. You can enlist as e-3 with some community college "art history" classes. If you don't get into trouble, and do well on your EPR and your PT test (and maybe brown nose a little) you can make e-4 six months early with Senior Airman Below the zone. You get deployed a few times, earn yourself a AFAM, take the Ssgt test and BAM a 4 year (or a little less) Ssgt wonder. Now, he/she is an NCO, but with considerable less experience mentoring than most civilians expect.

If CAP proudly says all NCO's have vast experiences, we could start running into problems when young Ssgt is made cadet mentor just because he/she joins and places stripes on his/her sleeve...

Anywho, just my one half of one cent worth of opinion.

And just what Air Force are you talking about? It certaining isn't ours. A person enlisting as an E-3 may put on E-4 below the zone in 12 months, maybe, if they're lucky. That doesn't mean their NCOs and it doesn't mean that they're any closer to E-5 because in the grand scheme of things, they're competing with a whole host of others who are senior to them in terms of time in service, grade, and even unique to their career fields.

Also, by that point, that airman has gone through at least one and possibly two levels of PME...not to mention technical and follow-in traing, which are far more intensive than some cadets will ever experience. I know that I did, because I had to complete the Air Force Supervisor's Course.

And, for the record, I don't know how many times in my AF career, did I find ex-CAP or JROTC cadets who hit a brick wall after intant E-3 and sat there for a while until they had the time in grade and service to compete with the others in their specific career field. I even met a few that never got above E-5. The one thing about instant E-3s that was common was that when they arrived in the field, they were expected to have the technical skills commensorate with their grade and it was always a disappointment when they didn't

Get your facts straight!

Please get your facts straight, i said e-5 in 4 (or a little less) years..... That's how i made e-5 in my first contract. With deployments (points) , my AFAM (more points) , Senior Airman below the zone ( you can test 6 months early for Ssgt) and my outstanding test score i got e-5 well before those that joined the same times as me....

[NCRblues]

"leaders in a military environment". That's not always the case....Take for instance the AF. You can enlist as e-3 with some community college "art history" classes. If you don't get into trouble, and do well on your EPR and your PT test (and maybe brown nose a little) you can make e-4 six months early with Senior Airman Below the zone. You get deployed a few times, earn yourself a AFAM, take the Ssgt test and BAM a 4 year (or a little less) Ssgt wonder. Now, he/she is an NCO, but with considerable less experience mentoring than most civilians expect".

Sounds to me like you would be getting a good NCO with 1 or 2 combat tours. But of course YOU have to add the "brown nose" part don't you?   

Deployment does not = combat tour, nor does it = supervisor and leadership abilities. My first "deployment" was with the 332nd EMG to joint base Balad to fill in for a admin troop who took  his finger off in a paper shredder. Didn't see any combat that deployment, nor any leadership or supervisory positions....

[Ned]

Ned, you're missing sidestepping my point.

Well, one of us is, that's for sure.

People who are, or were, military NCO's have the experience, mentality, and skill set that we look for in new members.  We want them, we need them, and we should be recruiting them.

OK, I think we agree so far.

They just don't need to wear their stripes in order to use those hard-won skills, nor is there anyway for them to serve in the normal role as an NCO, since there is no enlisted corps for them to care for the "health and welfare" of.

Aha!  I think I have found where we differ.  Mostly because you continue to deliberately ignore what I have said repeatedly on this point.

First, NCOs do indeed need to have stripes on their sleeves to act like NCOs and model NCO leadership styles.  Folks wearing captain bars need to act and lead like mature company-grade officers.  And folks wearing MSgt stripes need to act and lead like a senior noncommissioned officer.  The two roles and styles are completely different.  Former RM NCOs who choose to become CAP officers must lead and act like officers in officer roles if they are to be successful in CAP. 

I think we have a few AD E-5s on this board who are also CAP lieutenants.  Let's ask them if their leadership behaviors are the same when they wear stripes versus bars.

Second, we have nearly 30,000 or so cadets, SMWOGs, and junior NCOs that CAP NCOs can and should look out for.  Which I think we agree is one of the crucial roles of an NCO.

Wilson and Spaatz may have had an opinion regarding CAP NCO's, however they also served in slightly different times, and with a membership that was comprised most certainly of more current and former military, especially in the first decade of CAP.

I'll let the historians chime in here, but I was taught that the whole point of CAP in the early days was that it was composed entirely of civilians, since the military types were desparetly needed elsewhere.

And further, the fundamental nature of the military - including the AF - has not changed significantly since WIlson and Spaatz helped create the CAP.  The notion of officer, enlisted, and NCO roles remains very much the same today.

 

We need the NCO's at all levels of the organization, however an NCO program cannot exist within CAP as anything but ceremonial grade, and since that
ceremonial grade would potentially draw a line between the two classes of members in the same way as it does in the military, it would be counterproductive to implement.

As others have pointed out, NCO grade is no more or less "ceremonial" than our officer grade.  (Actually, probably less since it indicates hundreds if not thousands of additional hours of leadership and technical training than required even of senior CAP officers like you and me.)

And CAP NCOs exist today, just as they have for nearly 70 years.  The regulation is clear as to their existence.  As officers, our job is to employ the special talents and skills of all of our volunteers at every level, including our NCOs.

[Hardshell Clam]

"Deployment does not = combat tour, nor does it = supervisor and leadership abilities. My first "deployment" was with the 332nd EMG to joint base Balad to fill in for a admin troop who took  his finger off in a paper shredder. Didn't see any combat that deployment, nor any leadership or supervisory positions...."

You will have to excuse me on that as in my "MOS" any "deployment" was a combat tour (combat arms). I was never a REMF.

[cap235629]

"Deployment does not = combat tour, nor does it = supervisor and leadership abilities. My first "deployment" was with the 332nd EMG to joint base Balad to fill in for a admin troop who took  his finger off in a paper shredder. Didn't see any combat that deployment, nor any leadership or supervisory positions...."

You will have to excuse me on that as in my "MOS" any "deployment" was a combat tour (combat arms). I was never a REMF.

Is there such a thing as a REMF anymore?  Most casualties have been in the combat support branches.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

One suggestion might be to leave our grade, which is purely ceremonial, for ceremonial situations, and remove it altogether from duty uniforms.

That's the way the CGAUX does it in the main (if you're around military personnel you're supposed to take off your rank office whatever brass and put on the "Member" insignia), except that they don't just restrict it to ceremonies...but it confused the heck out of me.  It works for them but no way would I want to see "Squadron Commander," "Vice Squadron Commander," "Squadron Staff Officer - Safety," etc. brought in for us.

[Short Field]

P.S.: You appear to have read the words but missed what I said.  I was off on my senior trip with the army in late '72, early '73.

You appear to be dodging or ignoring the question.

It would be nice to know how long in each branch and the type of service instead of grouping them all together.   

[flyboy53]

No one has yet provided a single objective, mission-centric advantage to reinstating the enlisted corps to CAP, and I don't just mean this thread, I mean ever. 

I came in as a slick sleave, made E-4 BTZ in 22 months; E-5 at 4.5 years; E-6 at 7 and E-7 at 15 years, which is where I stayed until retiremet.

[GroundHawg]

"Please get your facts straight too! There is no way to get E4 in under a year.
If you come in as a E3 and you're a real fast burner and haven't ticked off your Commander you might get E4 in 15 months.
That's if your Commander puts you in for a BTZ promotion and your Wing Commander approves it.
Both of which can be some pretty big ifs. The usual TIG to go from E3 to E4 is about 30 months."

This has not been my experience in the last 5 years in the Air Force Reserves. Active duty may be different.

In my unit in the USAFR, there are no e3's. Im not joking, being dramatic, or BS'ing in any way. Your first drill home from basic and tech school, your paperwork for E4 is submitted and you are promoted next drill weekend, some get it at tech school if they know someone at the unit.  You make E5 as soon as you have time in grade, ALS, CBT's and your 5 level. E6 is where it begins to become competitive, but even then, there is NO leadership training other than coorespondence.  Noone in my unit that has only served in the USAF (Chiefs included) has any idea what a NCO is.

[Hardshell Clam]

"You will have to excuse me on that as in my "MOS" any "deployment" was a combat tour (combat arms). I was never a REMF"

"Is there such a thing as a REMF anymore?  Most casualties have been in the combat support branches"

Anymore? Ha ha! Wold that include Vietnam?

One 3 yr tour Reg army
One 3 yr tour Reserves
One year USCG AUX
One year SDF
30+ years govt' service as civ employee
Now CAP

[PHall]

"Please get your facts straight too! There is no way to get E4 in under a year.
If you come in as a E3 and you're a real fast burner and haven't ticked off your Commander you might get E4 in 15 months.
That's if your Commander puts you in for a BTZ promotion and your Wing Commander approves it.
Both of which can be some pretty big ifs. The usual TIG to go from E3 to E4 is about 30 months."

This has not been my experience in the last 5 years in the Air Force Reserves. Active duty may be different.

In my unit in the USAFR, there are no e3's. Im not joking, being dramatic, or BS'ing in any way. Your first drill home from basic and tech school, your paperwork for E4 is submitted and you are promoted next drill weekend, some get it at tech school if they know someone at the unit.  You make E5 as soon as you have time in grade, ALS, CBT's and your 5 level. E6 is where it begins to become competitive, but even then, there is NO leadership training other than coorespondence.  Noone in my unit that has only served in the USAF (Chiefs included) has any idea what a NCO is.

Officially throwing the BS flag on this one. I was in the USAFR for 18 years and even the USAFR had to follow the TIG requirements. Even for Unit Vacancy promotions.

[Eclipse]

Now CAP

Yes.  Now CAP.  For how long?

As you are probably realizing, little of your prior service is really relevant in a practical way to CAP's unique structure and self-inflicted challenges, which is the point several of have been trying to make. 

http://tinyurl.com/3tddxgy

[NCRblues]

"Please get your facts straight too! There is no way to get E4 in under a year.
If you come in as a E3 and you're a real fast burner and haven't ticked off your Commander you might get E4 in 15 months.
That's if your Commander puts you in for a BTZ promotion and your Wing Commander approves it.
Both of which can be some pretty big ifs. The usual TIG to go from E3 to E4 is about 30 months."

This has not been my experience in the last 5 years in the Air Force Reserves. Active duty may be different.

In my unit in the USAFR, there are no e3's. Im not joking, being dramatic, or BS'ing in any way. Your first drill home from basic and tech school, your paperwork for E4 is submitted and you are promoted next drill weekend, some get it at tech school if they know someone at the unit.  You make E5 as soon as you have time in grade, ALS, CBT's and your 5 level. E6 is where it begins to become competitive, but even then, there is NO leadership training other than coorespondence.  Noone in my unit that has only served in the USAF (Chiefs included) has any idea what a NCO is.

Officially throwing the BS flag on this one. I was in the USAFR for 18 years and even the USAFR had to follow the TIG requirements. Even for Unit Vacancy promotions.

It really shames me to say this, but its true.

Graduation day from tech school ( i was the rope for my team 6) one of the airman shows up in dress blues with e4 on. My mouth hit the floor. He told me the same story as above, and i did not believe him. I went to my chief instructor, and he said yes its true. This airman had a new CAC card with e4 on it and everything. Very shocking for me (on AD) to see a reservist who went through basic with me get promoted for nothing....

[PHall]

"Please get your facts straight too! There is no way to get E4 in under a year.
If you come in as a E3 and you're a real fast burner and haven't ticked off your Commander you might get E4 in 15 months.
That's if your Commander puts you in for a BTZ promotion and your Wing Commander approves it.
Both of which can be some pretty big ifs. The usual TIG to go from E3 to E4 is about 30 months."

This has not been my experience in the last 5 years in the Air Force Reserves. Active duty may be different.

In my unit in the USAFR, there are no e3's. Im not joking, being dramatic, or BS'ing in any way. Your first drill home from basic and tech school, your paperwork for E4 is submitted and you are promoted next drill weekend, some get it at tech school if they know someone at the unit.  You make E5 as soon as you have time in grade, ALS, CBT's and your 5 level. E6 is where it begins to become competitive, but even then, there is NO leadership training other than coorespondence.  Noone in my unit that has only served in the USAF (Chiefs included) has any idea what a NCO is.

Officially throwing the BS flag on this one. I was in the USAFR for 18 years and even the USAFR had to follow the TIG requirements. Even for Unit Vacancy promotions.

It really shames me to say this, but its true.

Graduation day from tech school ( i was the rope for my team 6) one of the airman shows up in dress blues with e4 on. My mouth hit the floor. He told me the same story as above, and i did not believe him. I went to my chief instructor, and he said yes its true. This airman had a new CAC card with e4 on it and everything. Very shocking for me (on AD) to see a reservist who went through basic with me get promoted for nothing....

I would be asking to see that guy's enlistment contract, because I can't think of any enlistment bonus program that gives you E-4 out of Tech School.
Now a somebody cross-training to another AFSC, that's another matter...

[NCRblues]

"Please get your facts straight too! There is no way to get E4 in under a year.
If you come in as a E3 and you're a real fast burner and haven't ticked off your Commander you might get E4 in 15 months.
That's if your Commander puts you in for a BTZ promotion and your Wing Commander approves it.
Both of which can be some pretty big ifs. The usual TIG to go from E3 to E4 is about 30 months."

This has not been my experience in the last 5 years in the Air Force Reserves. Active duty may be different.

In my unit in the USAFR, there are no e3's. Im not joking, being dramatic, or BS'ing in any way. Your first drill home from basic and tech school, your paperwork for E4 is submitted and you are promoted next drill weekend, some get it at tech school if they know someone at the unit.  You make E5 as soon as you have time in grade, ALS, CBT's and your 5 level. E6 is where it begins to become competitive, but even then, there is NO leadership training other than coorespondence.  Noone in my unit that has only served in the USAF (Chiefs included) has any idea what a NCO is.

Officially throwing the BS flag on this one. I was in the USAFR for 18 years and even the USAFR had to follow the TIG requirements. Even for Unit Vacancy promotions.

It really shames me to say this, but its true.

Graduation day from tech school ( i was the rope for my team 6) one of the airman shows up in dress blues with e4 on. My mouth hit the floor. He told me the same story as above, and i did not believe him. I went to my chief instructor, and he said yes its true. This airman had a new CAC card with e4 on it and everything. Very shocking for me (on AD) to see a reservist who went through basic with me get promoted for nothing....

I would be asking to see that guy's enlistment contract, because I can't think of any enlistment bonus program that gives you E-4 out of Tech School.
Now a somebody cross-training to another AFSC, that's another matter...

Unfortunately, as an e-3 student tech school leader i didn't think i had the power to do more than i did. Needless to say, I was just as shocked as I think you are....

he was a fresh out of basic (331st wolfpack, flight 435) airman, put on e3 at the end of basic like myself, showed up to tech graduation with e4....

[SarDragon]

The Canoe Club has had a program for a long time where, at the end of tech school, you could promote to E-4 if you obligated for two more years (six total), and attended an advanced tech school. If you failed the tech school, you kept E-4, but lost out on any kool orders you might have had.

In my own case, I eschewed the advanced rank because I was unwilling to obligate for the extra two years. I entered as an E-2, made E-3 six months later, and became an E-4 368 days after I came on AD. It took me 14 months to put on E-5, after that, due to funding issued. I had to wait for the new fiscal year before I could get paid for E-5.
It's not quite that easy these days, but E-4 out of tech school is still available if you give them the extra two years. TIG is waived in most cases.

[PHall]

The Canoe Club has had a program for a long time where, at the end of tech school, you could promote to E-4 if you obligated for two more years (six total), and attended an advanced tech school. If you failed the tech school, you kept E-4, but lost out on any kool orders you might have had.

In my own case, I eschewed the advanced rank because I was unwilling to obligate for the extra two years. I entered as an E-2, made E-3 six months later, and became an E-4 368 days after I came on AD. It took me 14 months to put on E-5, after that, due to funding issued. I had to wait for the new fiscal year before I could get paid for E-5.
It's not quite that easy these days, but E-4 out of tech school is still available if you give them the extra two years. TIG is waived in most cases.

That's the Navy Dave, AF rules are vastly different.