CAP NCO's

[Hardshell Clam]

"And if CAP had "enlisted" troops for the NCO's to lead that would be true. But we don't, so what would you use the NCO's for that couldn't be handled by any other member?"

You are correct, but why do we need military rank/grades at all? Why not have Member 1st class, 2nd class, etc? Get rid of the AF uniforms as well and just have corp. uniforms with "ranks" that look nothing like the military. Hummm, maybe there is some NCO chevron envy going on? 

Not saying it should be that way, so no flaming please...

Bottom line: NCO's are here and not likely that they will be going away as the "brass" want them here. So as it stand now, until the AF & CAP changes the regs, we have NCOs.

"Please provide specific examples.  Also, your personal experience in CAP will help us".

I do not post my ribbons or badges here for a reason, but; starting in 1973I have been in the Army, Army Nat' Guard, USCG Aux and now the CAP. I have 30+ years of service. Nuff said.

Complaining about the regs here has the same effect as taking a hammer to your cell phone when it is not working... If you feel NCO ranks are wrong, make positive efforts to help change it.

And to this thread, I say G'day!

[Eclipse]

A few things (though you said you left...)

1) The quote tags are there for a reason, please use them.  They allow people to easily cycle back to the thread quoted.  This insures context.

2) Who is "The Brass" you keep referring to? 

3) Barring change, members from other services may well continue to wear their stripes earned in that other service, that doesn't make them part of a CAP NCO program.

4) You didn't answer the question.  Since you appear to be a strong advocate for the creation of a CAP enlisted and NCO structure, what, specifically would those people do which is in keeping with the intention and point of an enlisted corps.

5) The fact that you may have carried a CAP ID card in your wallet since 1973, does not indicate what, if anything, you've actually done.  There are members in my wing who have been empty shirts for 1/2 that time.

6) No one is "complaining about the regs", since there aren't any to complain about.  The only thing "the regs" grant, is what is worn on the member's uniform.  There's no delineation of authority, no progression, and nothing special in "the regs" about wearing stripes instead of epaulet sleeves.
If an experienced E-7 wants to spend his CAP career saluting Flight Officers over some misunderstanding about how CAP works, so be it, but that's pretty much the start and end of CAP NCO's today.

[Hardshell Clam]

Eclipse, as I stated, g'day, however, one more comment: is it possible that you could make your comments without the sarcasm and bating remarks so as to keep them on the good side of professional?

P.S.: You appear to have read the words but missed what I said.  I was off on my senior trip with the army in late '72, early '73.

[AirDX]

The elephant in the room is the fact that CAP officer grades are equally as "meaningless" as some of you purport the NCO grades to be.

CAP officer grades confer no additional authority, no gravitas, and serve solely as an indicator of progression in PD program, or of certain achievements outside of CAP, or of holding certain positions within the organization.  Period.  It has been frequently observed that slick-sleeve SMs or 2LTs command units with LTCs working for them.  QED.

So just as CAP NCOs don't hold that AD NCO power, neither do officers.  Therefore, shall we eliminate the officer grades?  The same argument holds true for officers as well as NCOs.

Authority in CAP is essentially based on unit cohesion and position, and not on rank.  I train and perform missions with the same group of people; based on their performance we follow ones who deserve to be followed.  The IC I work with most frequently is a captain; he has natural leadership qualities and lots of experience, so even though we are theoretically peers, I hop to when he says "go".  We have some doofusses (doofi?) wearing silver bottle caps that I wouldn't follow through the chow line, let alone on a mission - and unlike the active duty military, that doofuss can't compel me to do anything.

So again, I say that CAP officer grades are as meaningless as some say CAP NCO grades are/would be.  Would you do away with them, too, or are you all too wed to the shiny stuff on your shoulders? 

   

[Eclipse]

P.S.: You appear to have read the words but missed what I said.  I was off on my senior trip with the army in late '72, early '73.

You appear to be dodging or ignoring the question.

[Eclipse]

So again, I say that CAP officer grades are as meaningless as some say CAP NCO grades are/would be.  Would you do away with them, too, or are you all too wed to the shiny stuff on your shoulders? 

I would have no issue with that whatsoever, though it may be hard to maintain the paramilitary structure without some semblance of a grade progression.

[AirDX]

I would have no issue with that whatsoever, though it may be hard to maintain the paramilitary structure without some semblance of a grade progression.

Quite true.  So since we need some sort of grade structure (I agree wholeheartedly with that), and we are an auxiliary of the USAF, why don't we mirror the active force? 

There also seems to be a myth here that NCOs are macho leaders of men, Sgt. Rock-like in their abilities to lead men into the jaws of death while caring for them like a mother.

In combat arms, that is, or should be, the case.  However, the vast bulk of NCOs E5-E7 I work with in my day-to-day work as an Air Force civilian are technicians.  Maybe they have ancillary duties chasing after people's paperwork, getting them to PT tests, etc., but I don't see the argument you all are making.  This is not to belittle anyone - these people are highly skilled and very dedicated.

Officers are theoretically managers - but most CAP positions do not involve managing anything.  Two of my CAP positions are personnel officer and PDO.  I don't manage much in either position, I push paperwork around and do what I can for the people in the unit.  When I look in the active force, the kind of work I do in a unit as personnel or PDO is most akin to what I see an AD MSgt doing.

I have my ideas about what a CAP grade structure should look like, but there have been a bunch of them written about on here, pointless to write another one.

But, if the brass has decided we will implement an NCO structure, I welcome it as the right way to be.

[Eclipse]

That brings us back to the argument against NCO's - NCO's are ground-level leaders of men, not managers.

Managers are about process and administration, not wrench-turning.  And and that still doesn't address the "problem" of the lack of the enlisted / officer
caste system in CAP.

The argument against officer grades won't bring us closer to needing NCO's, it'll just raise more questions about the need for grade at all.

We should never try to ignore or downplay our USAF lineage, but anyone doing an organizational structure analysis of CAP would be hard-pressed
to find any "need" for grade for CAP members in an operational conversation.

One suggestion might be to leave our grade, which is purely ceremonial, for ceremonial situations, and remove it altogether from duty uniforms.
Just be polite to your fellow members and call everyone "sir".  Authority would continue to stem from staff posting, and day-to-day interactions
would become a lot less complicated.

Those who, for whatever reason, seem to disdain the grade structure could pretty much ignore it in most situations, and just do their jobs, and
the rest of us can salute each other at the banquet.

Lack of grade insignia on uniforms might clear that that situation up once and for all, since there could never be any "confusion" about our status.
Without grade on your shoulder, members would be forced to actually perform in order to garner the respect many seem to draw purely from their accouterments.

[AirDX]

One suggestion might be to leave our grade, which is purely ceremonial, for ceremonial situations, and remove it altogether from duty uniforms.
Just be polite to your fellow members and call everyone "sir".  Authority would continue to stem from staff posting, and day-to-day interactions
would become a lot less complicated.

Isn't that what's happening de facto with most folks wearing the polo shirt?

Don't mistake what I say, I'm not against a grade structure, in fact I'm strongly against the absence of a grade structure.

That brings us back to the argument against NCO's - NCO's are ground-level leaders of men, not managers.

No, not what I said.  Most I deal with day-to-day are technicians, and then supervisors at higher grade.  Even our first shirt in the AOC looks and performs duties a lot more like a manager than Sgt. Rock.  Sorry.  Just a manager of people.

Combat arms in the Army or Marines, or USAF SOF/SFS are something else - different creatures entirely.  Not all NCOs, just like not all officers are equal across the services in terms of duties/responsibilities.

[Eclipse]

Isn't that what's happening de facto with most folks wearing the polo shirt?

Sorta, but not all the way.  Those members may wish to not play the full game themselves, but they are still surrounded by most members who do,
along with the expectation of courtesies, salutes, etc., which in itself causes bad feelings and misunderstandings.  it shouldn't, but if you come into
CAP thinking which shirt you're wearing dictates your behavior, you're already against the curve in regards to dealing with other members, especially
those in authority.  having people with different opinions of what a paramilitary structure means, is not good for that paramilitary structure.

It might not need to be said, but not all those who wear the golf shirt on occasion fall into this group, either.

No one has yet provided a single objective, mission-centric advantage to reinstating the enlisted corps to CAP, and I don't just mean this thread, I mean ever.  We hear a lot of subjective buzz-words, but nothing actionable.  Those in favor of a legit NCO corps in CAP provide about the same level of detail that those who champion the CAC do - lot's of pamphlet-based rhetoric, and very little in terms of 1-sentence bullet points.

[ZigZag911]

Um...

A large number if not all, the State Directors are current or recent military, and all the CAP-RAPs, by design, are Reservists, and occasionally a Guardsman.  Ours is a Lt. Col., and the three most active RAPs are a Lt. Col., Major, and MSgt, respectively.  They regularly visit all the unit in the state, oversee the property and vehicles, and proctor the Evals.  I'm not sure what more you could want, nor what difference having someone on AD would make to the situation.  They wouldn't be any more (or less) in the chain than an SD is.

Retirees are fine; however, I don't believe prior military service is required to apply for SD...in practice, they might all be, but I'd like to see it put in writing as a job prerequisite.

I'd like to see the SDs back in uniforms and addressed by grade.

I'd like to see Asst SDs who are retired senior NCOs, in uniforms, addressed by their grades.

I think it would be a positive thing in terms of teaching and reinforcing core values, military courtesies, and strengthening to CAP's relationship with USAF to have full time professionals such as these visible to the membership,  in addition to the outstanding contributions of the CAP RAP reservists.

[Ned]

No one has yet provided a single objective, mission-centric advantage to reinstating the enlisted corps to CAP, and I don't just mean this thread, I mean ever. 

Laying aside the excellent point that this is a rhetorical false dilemma because no one has ever needed to justify the officer corps of CAP with a "single objective, mission-centric reason" either, the direct reply is that of course we have.  You just don't happen to agree, so you continue to ignore it and pretend not to see it.

I could put 1200 CAP NCOs to work tomorrow by assigning one to each cadet and composite unit to serve as Leadership Officers.  Essentially by definituion, NCOs have years of experience mentoring and developing junior leaders in a military environment.  And since every single cadet must develop their followership and  leadership skills initially as an airman and cadet NCO, senior member NCOs could and would provide outstanding and needed support.

Of course, we have a terrific CP without significant numbers of CAP NCOs, so I can't claim that CAP NCOs are crucial. 

But our CP would be measurably better if we had one or two experienced NCOs at each cadet and composite unit.

But even more importantly, the program is in our current regulations and I have heard both the last and the current national commander specifically support having a vibrant and successful CAP NCO program.  As a staff guys and as a CAP officers, our job is to figure out how to make the program more successful and help it benefit CAP.

And I think that covers both you and me.

Wouldn't you agree?

[NCRblues]

No one has yet provided a single objective, mission-centric advantage to reinstating the enlisted corps to CAP, and I don't just mean this thread, I mean ever. 

Laying aside the excellent point that this is a rhetorical false dilemma because no one has ever needed to justify the officer corps of CAP with a "single objective, mission-centric reason" either, the direct reply is that of course we have.  You just don't happen to agree, so you continue to ignore it and pretend not to see it.

I could put 1200 CAP NCOs to work tomorrow by assigning one to each cadet and composite unit to serve as Leadership Officers.  Essentially by definituion, NCOs have years of experience mentoring and developing junior leaders in a military environment.  And since every single cadet must develop their followership and  leadership skills initially as an airman and cadet NCO, senior member NCOs could and would provide outstanding and needed support.

Of course, we have a terrific CP without significant numbers of CAP NCOs, so I can't claim that CAP NCOs are crucial. 

But our CP would be measurably better if we had one or two experienced NCOs at each cadet and composite unit.

But even more importantly, the program is in our current regulations and I have heard both the last and the current national commander specifically support having a vibrant and successful CAP NCO program.  As a staff guys and as a CAP officers, our job is to figure out how to make the program more successful and help it benefit CAP.

And I think that covers both you and me.

Wouldn't you agree?

Ill keep my opinion to myself over this argument, but i would like to point out one thing.

I think we need to be careful with blanket statements like "NCOs have years of experience mentoring and developing junior leaders in a military environment". That's not always the case....

Take for instance the AF. You can enlist as e-3 with some community college "art history" classes. If you don't get into trouble, and do well on your EPR and your PT test (and maybe brown nose a little) you can make e-4 six months early with Senior Airman Below the zone. You get deployed a few times, earn yourself a AFAM, take the Ssgt test and BAM a 4 year (or a little less) Ssgt wonder. Now, he/she is an NCO, but with considerable less experience mentoring than most civilians expect.

If CAP proudly says all NCO's have vast experiences, we could start running into problems when young Ssgt is made cadet mentor just because he/she joins and places stripes on his/her sleeve...

Anywho, just my one half of one cent worth of opinion.

[Eclipse]

I have stated on a number of occasions that in many cases our paramilitary accouterments are more of an impediment than an advantage
in our context.  However the existence of the officer grade structure doesn't need to be justified because it already "is", and further, when all are officers, at least there is no misunderstanding about the enlisted / officer relationship, which, in the military, establishes two separate and distinct groups  of people, by both responsibility and benefits, and they are decidedly not equal.

Further, the majority of jobs in CAP are, in fact, white-collar professional jobs, and are appropriate for officer grades (though I think we all would agree that in its current implementation, with no billeting of jobs and limitation of grade, we have far too many field grade officers in company grade jobs).

Wouldn't you agree?

No.
Unless you are arguing that their effectiveness within CAP would somehow be dependant on their status as a CAP NCO.  You could absolutely put those guys to work, and the vast majority would be a positive influence, however it would be because of their experience and ability, not because of the insignia on their sleeve, just like every other member in CAP.

No one has said we don't need the NCO's as members, just that to try and initiate the NCO relationship in CAP, especially among senior members, is not necessary and likely counterproductive.

Does their experience and ability come with the patches?

And to NCR's point above, not all NCO's are created equal.  Give me some Naval Petty Officers, or others involved basic training, and they will have direct, hands-on experience with shaping young people from scratch (though they'd need to be monitored for the level).  But take an administrative E-5 who's job has been overseeing a headquarters unit processing Tri-care forms, and they aren't likely to be much use in helping 12 year olds march, they might be great getting PD on its feet in a struggling unit, but that's not an NCO-specific role in CAP.

Why?  Because there are no grade specific roles in CAP, especially on the senior side.

[Ned]

However the existence of the officer grade structure doesn't need to be justified because it already "is",

Yes, just like the CAP enlisted grades which have been around since WWII.  Neither "pre-dates" the other.  And just like in every single military organization in the history of the world since the Roman Legions.

Further, the majority of jobs in CAP are, in fact, white-collar professional jobs, and are appropriate for officer grades

I am close to agreeing here.  Most of what CAP officers currently do is officer-type stuff.  Call it 60/40, but close enough.  But there is not exactly a shortage of "NCO business, either.

Unless you are arguing that their effectiveness within CAP would somehow be dependant on their status as a CAP NCO. 

Exactly.  I have made that precise point each time we have had this discussion.  (Please refer to my previous comments about you ignoring these answers simply because you do not agree.)

CAP NCOs could serve as terrific Leadership Officers and mentors in CP because of their NCO status, rather than despite it.  I don't want to repeat the whole "officers lead like officers; NCOs lead like NCOs" thing.  But as much as you disagree, it is true.  They are distincltly different and cadets would greatly benefit by having role models and mentors in both leadership styles.

No one has said we don't need the NCO's as members, just that to try and initiate the NCO relationship in CAP, especially among senior members, is not necessary and likely counterproductive.

Maybe - just maybe - Gill Robb Wilson and Carl Spaatz didn't get it wrong when they included NCOs in CAP's structure nearly 70 years ago.  Maybe Gens Courter and Carr have a point when they gave direction to strengthen our existing NCO program.

Does their experience and ability come with the patches?

Yeah, pretty much.  As others have pointed out, it might be as little as four years of full-time experience, including deployments and a lot of leadership schools.  But that is going to be four years more experience in a military environment than the average new CAP member.

But practically speaking, we don't have a lot of "shake and bake" below the zone SSgts, simply because outstanding below the zone leaders normally are still working full time in the service.  Our average time in service for a CAP NCO appears to be considerably greater than than four years.

And to NCR's point above, not all NCO's are created equal.

Well, there you got me, Bob.  I can only agree that not every former NCO would be suitable as a CAP member.  That's why we have Unit Membership Boards and seasoned unit commanders who make the final call on every CAP volunteer.

But I will happily wager that the average NCO applicant will stand head and shoulders above the average civilian applicant when it comes to practical leadership experience in a military environment.

After all, Uncle Sammy has already vetted the NCO's background and invested thousands of dollars in training that NCO.  And we get to leverage off of that.

Win-win.

[RiverAux]

Maybe - just maybe - Gill Robb Wilson and Carl Spaatz didn't get it wrong when they included NCOs in CAP's structure nearly 70 years ago.  Maybe Gens Courter and Carr have a point when they gave direction to strengthen our existing NCO program.

Yes, but we also had enlisted personnel for those NCOs to lead. 

CAP NCOs could serve as terrific Leadership Officers and mentors in CP because of their NCO status, rather than despite it.  I don't want to repeat the whole "officers lead like officers; NCOs lead like NCOs" thing.  But as much as you disagree, it is true.  They are distincltly different and cadets would greatly benefit by having role models and mentors in both leadership styles.

They are exactly the same people no matter what is on their collar and sleeve.  I really doubt that a former NCO is going to be teaching cadets differently just because they have stripes on their sleeves rather than brass on their collar. 

The simple fact is that most former NCOs obviously don't WANT to be CAP NCOs or they would be.  While we have no idea how many former NCOs are in CAP, I'm pretty confident that it is probably in the low thousands and only 50-100 of them have chosen to be CAP NCOs. 

Even if we gave CAP NCOs the specific job of working with cadets, I don't see any reason to think that this would all of a sudden change the percentage of members who prefer to be NCOs rather than officers. 

CAP is going to have to come up with a better reason for an NCO corps than that that if we really expect it to ever expand beyond the minuscule number of people in it right now. 

[davidsinn]

Maybe Gens Courter and Carr have a point when they gave direction to strengthen our existing NCO program.

What program?

What we have now is prior/current military NCOs wearing stripes on a CAP uniform. There is not a unique role for them. There is nothing they can do with stripes that they can't do with brass on their collar. They can't even promote unless Uncle Sam promotes them first.

[Eclipse]

Ned, you're missing sidestepping my point.

People who are, or were, military NCO's have the experience, mentality, and skill set that we look for in new members.  We want them, we need them, and we should be recruiting them.

They just don't need to wear their stripes in order to use those hard-won skills, nor is there anyway for them to serve in the normal role as an NCO, since there is no enlisted corps for them to care for the "health and welfare" of.  If part of this plan is to build an enlisted corps, that's bad idea 1a,
since, again, there is no separation of duties or personnel in a volunteer organization, and CAP is twp decades past the membership numbers and staffing to even consider dividing responsibilities based on grade.

Wilson and Spaatz may have had an opinion regarding CAP NCO's, however they also served in slightly different times, and with a membership that was comprised most certainly of more current and former military, especially in the first decade of CAP.  Others down the road saw the lack of need for the additional layers, as well as the total absence of the enlisted / officer separation in a volunteer organization and wisely removed those grades from the program.

Further, the days of Wilson and Spaatz were during the period when the USAF had direct oversight and command and control of CAP, without the corporate firewall we have today.

We need the NCO's at all levels of the organization, however an NCO program cannot exist within CAP as anything but ceremonial grade, and since that
ceremonial grade would potentially draw a line between the two classes of members in the same way as it does in the military, it would be counterproductive to implement.

[PHall]

Actually Bob, you don't need your Oak Leaves to do your job either. Really, the only CAP members who "need" officers grade would be the Corperate Officers (Wing Commanders and above). Everything else could be handled by "members". The CG Aux has proved that system can work.

[Eclipse]

Actually Bob, you don't need your Oak Leaves to do your job either. Really, the only CAP members who "need" officers grade would be the Corperate Officers (Wing Commanders and above). Everything else could be handled by "members". The CG Aux has proved that system can work.

I've already said exactly that in this thread.

The corporate officers aren't any different - their authority stems from their board appointments, etc., not their grade.  When their term is over, they
come back to the wing or a local unit and fall into formation with everyone else.  My wing has at least 4 full Colonels who now have no more authority in the program than anyone else.  It is what it is, but we don't need to make the situation worse by subdividing the existing situation even further and more needlessly.