CAP NCO's

[Eclipse]

Bob, the State Directors are all Retired military. It's a requirement to get the job.

No, it is not.  Ours is a reservist Lt. Col.

[Eclipse]

Are we underlings allowed to invite the SD to things like SAREXs? They may or may not take up on it, but as long as we're allowed, I don't think it hurt to say "Mr. X, as you may already know [because they approved it], X squadron will be hosting an AF funded SAREX on Y date and I wanted to take a moment to personally invite you to join us at mission base." (unless, of course, you royally screw something up, but as long as your incident staff is good nothing too bad should happen...)

Always, and they like to be included, but just as an FYI, if it is AF funded, more times than not the SD or a CAP-RAP will be attending as a matter of oversight.

[Persona non grata]

Back when we had active duty (later retired) USAF NCOs as LNCOs for the wings (before this silly "state director" title came into use) many, if not most of them were highly respected throughout the wings they served.

They were in fact (if not in actual rank) the wing command master chief, at least in terms of their impact, influence, and example.

Um...

A large number if not all, the State Directors are current or recent military, and all the CAP-RAPs, by design, are Reservists, and occasionally a Guardsman.  Ours is a Lt. Col., and the three most active RAPs are a Lt. Col., Major, and MSgt, respectively.  They regularly visit all the unit in the state, oversee the property and vehicles, and proctor the Evals.  I'm not sure what more you could want, nor what difference having someone on AD would make to the situation.  They wouldn't be any more (or less) in the chain than an SD is.

I joined CAP near the beginning of the transition, and the first encampment I had any planning involvement in still dealt with the old program.  The gentlemen who was serving as the LNCO was so disconnected and abrupt in his dealings with me and others that we all thought he was AD and had gotten stuck with helping CAP as ADY.  It wasn't until the next year when the State Directors came into play that we found out he was full-time assigned to CAP and just not all that interested in being proactive.

Thankfully the SD we have had since then rocks, and is a strong, pro-active advocate of the program.  I know the others in my Region that I have met or dealt with, personally, have all had similar traits.

Certainly in my wing, anyway, the SD transition was something sorely needed.

I personally believe that the SD's should be much more involved in the operational aspects of the respective wings, and treated as partners instead of
afterthoughts, but that is a command prerogative of the respective Wing CC, and whether or not they are AD isn't going to make any difference in that respect.

Bob, the State Directors are all Retired military. It's a requirement to get the job.

If thats the case, how is it that my SD is a Major in the Air National Gaurd?

[Spaceman3750]

Are we underlings allowed to invite the SD to things like SAREXs? They may or may not take up on it, but as long as we're allowed, I don't think it hurt to say "Mr. X, as you may already know [because they approved it], X squadron will be hosting an AF funded SAREX on Y date and I wanted to take a moment to personally invite you to join us at mission base." (unless, of course, you royally screw something up, but as long as your incident staff is good nothing too bad should happen...)

Always, and they like to be included, but just as an FYI, if it is AF funded, more times than not the SD or a CAP-RAP will be attending as a matter of oversight.

Hm. I've been at 6 exercises this year, all AF funded (and one I was the project officer on) and didn't see a single SD or CAP-RAP.

[Spaceman3750]

Are we underlings allowed to invite the SD to things like SAREXs? They may or may not take up on it, but as long as we're allowed, I don't think it hurt to say "Mr. X, as you may already know [because they approved it], X squadron will be hosting an AF funded SAREX on Y date and I wanted to take a moment to personally invite you to join us at mission base." (unless, of course, you royally screw something up, but as long as your incident staff is good nothing too bad should happen...)

Always, and they like to be included, but just as an FYI, if it is AF funded, more times than not the SD or a CAP-RAP will be attending as a matter of oversight.

Hm. I've been at 6 exercises this year, all AF funded (and one I was the project officer on) and didn't see a single SD or CAP-RAP.

Actually, this isn't entirely true. I did see several of them at the eval (obviously).

[Eclipse]

Hm. I've been at 6 exercises this year, all AF funded (and one I was the project officer on) and didn't see a single SD or CAP-RAP.

You saw them last week, right? (asked and answered above).
I have no response to the above other than I know that he and they are traveling all over the wing all the time.  It could also be a timing issue,
they are required to be at encampments, larger exercises, and evals, and ours have spent most of the summer moving around the region.
Ours were involved in the OHWG, KYWG, and INWG evals nearly consecutively.

Our wing and region tend to pile up activities in the same weekend, and I know that killed them this year.  Johnson, National Flight Academy, Summer Encampment, our Eval, national boards, King of the Rock, and a few smaller activities basically locked them up since about June on.

Anything that has USAF funding crossed the SD's desk for approval.

[GroundHawg]

I applied to the CAP-RAP program. I was told that I didnt have enough experience. I have 6 years in CAP and 12 in the military with 4 of those with the USAF. I just kinda laughed and said thank you Sir.

In my 6 years with CAP, all in Kentucky Wing, both as a cadet and sm, I have never once seen a single representative of the CAP-RAP ever. Ive done multiple encampments and 9 special activities, and countless SAREX's, never once.

And back to the topic, I dont see how having NCO ranks serves any pupose whatsoever. I would eliminate the option all together, if you want to join CAP, you can participate in CAP ranks or not at all. Your service is greatly appreciated, you can still wear all your bling and your education will earn you a pass on certain CAP course requirements, but you will be a CAP officer if you serve with us.

[PHall]

Bob, the State Directors are all Retired military. It's a requirement to get the job.

No, it is not.  Ours is a reservist Lt. Col.

Is he the State Director or the RAP Coordinator?

CAP-USAF operates liaison offices at each wing with an Air Force Civil Service Employee assigned as the State Director. The State Directors provide advice, assistance and Air Force oversight to the CAP wing commander, staff and groups and squadrons within the wing.

[Spaceman3750]

Bob, the State Directors are all Retired military. It's a requirement to get the job.

No, it is not.  Ours is a reservist Lt. Col.

Is he the State Director or the RAP Coordinator?

SD

[ßτε]

Bob, the State Directors are all Retired military. It's a requirement to get the job.

No, it is not.  Ours is a reservist Lt. Col.

Is he the State Director or the RAP Coordinator?

CAP-USAF operates liaison offices at each wing with an Air Force Civil Service Employee assigned as the State Director. The State Directors provide advice, assistance and Air Force oversight to the CAP wing commander, staff and groups and squadrons within the wing.

Is there anything to preclude one from being an Air Force Civil Service Employee as well as an Air Force Reserve Officer or NCO?

[flyboy53]

No.

The current state director for NY is a former ANG Major C-130 driver and former United Airlines pilot turned AFR Major.

[Hardshell Clam]

"I don't see how having NCO ranks serves any purpose whatsoever... if you want to join CAP, you can participate in CAP ranks or not at all."

CAP NCOs are a participating the CAP ranks as provided for in the regulations and obviously a lot more then a few folks in much higher pay grades think that allowing for them is the right thing to do.

[arajca]

"I don't see how having NCO ranks serves any purpose whatsoever... if you want to join CAP, you can participate in CAP ranks or not at all."

CAP NCOs are a participating the CAP ranks as provided for in the regulations and obviously a lot more then a few folks in much higher pay grades think that allowing for them is the right thing to do.

Or there are so few that it's not worth the headaches that'll come from moving them to officer status.

[GroundHawg]

"I don't see how having NCO ranks serves any purpose whatsoever... if you want to join CAP, you can participate in CAP ranks or not at all."

CAP NCOs are a participating the CAP ranks as provided for in the regulations and obviously a lot more then a few folks in much higher pay grades think that allowing for them is the right thing to do.

And they are entitled to their opinion. Just like I am entitled to mine. Regardless of "paygrade", I assume you were talking about military which I am a lowly E6, I think CAP Senior Member NCO's had a time and place and that time has passed and there isnt a real place for them any longer. CAP needs to move with the cheese sometimes, and this is one of them.

[Eclipse]

"I don't see how having NCO ranks serves any purpose whatsoever... if you want to join CAP, you can participate in CAP ranks or not at all."

CAP NCOs are a participating the CAP ranks as provided for in the regulations and obviously a lot more then a few folks in much higher pay grades think that allowing for them is the right thing to do.

Again in a language we can understand, please?

[flyboy53]

"I don't see how having NCO ranks serves any purpose whatsoever... if you want to join CAP, you can participate in CAP ranks or not at all."

CAP NCOs are a participating the CAP ranks as provided for in the regulations and obviously a lot more then a few folks in much higher pay grades think that allowing for them is the right thing to do.

And they are entitled to their opinion. Just like I am entitled to mine. Regardless of "paygrade", I assume you were talking about military which I am a lowly E6, I think CAP Senior Member NCO's had a time and place and that time has passed and there isnt a real place for them any longer. CAP needs to move with the cheese sometimes, and this is one of them.

I disagree. I sometimes wonder that the argument here is so vocal because people are afraid that the program will be adopted and it will cause the leadership to impose higher standards upon existing officers. At the very least, a formal CAP senior member NCO program would give senior members another participation option.

If former NCOs can make the program work and do it in such a way that it draws the approval of the AF, than why not give it a shot and see what happens.

Properly trained NCOs have their role as mid-level supervisors or managers, especially when mentoring cadet NCOs and cadet officers.  If you have a cadet with intentions of joining the military, how else would you really prepare him or her for the role of an NCO. It works for AFJROTC.

[Hardshell Clam]

"Or there are so few that it's not worth the headaches that'll come from moving them to officer status".

The reality is that if the "brass" really wanted the NCO's gone it could be done with the stroke of a pen, but obviously the powers to be want it the way it is.

NCO's have received the real-time leadership skills needed to command and inspire troops. Yes there are dud NCOs just like there are dud officers and dawdling old men as senior CAP officers, but by and far, an NCO brings a lot more to the table then most.

I was a "real" officer and "real" NCO and in my humble opinion, the NCO is the backbone of the military and should be embraced and utilized by the CAP. :clap:

[Eclipse]

The reality is that if the "brass" really wanted the NCO's gone it could be done with the stroke of a pen, but obviously the powers to be want it the way it is.

There isn't anything to abolish. The current situation is simply an honorary acknowledgement of service in another organization for those so inclined.

There is no enlisted / NCO program in CAP.

...the NCO is the backbone of the military...

Yes it is, and that statement is irrelevant to CAP in its current form. 

...and should be embraced and utilized by the CAP.

Please provide specific examples.  Also, your personal experience in CAP will help us.

[PHall]

I was a "real" officer and "real" NCO and in my humble opinion, the NCO is the backbone of the military and should be embraced and utilized by the CAP. :clap:

And if CAP had "enlisted" troops for the NCO's to lead that would be true. But we don't, so what would you use the NCO's for that couldn't be handled by any other member?

[ol'fido]

Back when we had active duty (later retired) USAF NCOs as LNCOs for the wings (before this silly "state director" title came into use) many, if not most of them were highly respected throughout the wings they served.

They were in fact (if not in actual rank) the wing command master chief, at least in terms of their impact, influence, and example.

Um...

A large number if not all, the State Directors are current or recent military, and all the CAP-RAPs, by design, are Reservists, and occasionally a Guardsman.  Ours is a Lt. Col., and the three most active RAPs are a Lt. Col., Major, and MSgt, respectively.  They regularly visit all the unit in the state, oversee the property and vehicles, and proctor the Evals.  I'm not sure what more you could want, nor what difference having someone on AD would make to the situation.  They wouldn't be any more (or less) in the chain than an SD is.

I joined CAP near the beginning of the transition, and the first encampment I had any planning involvement in still dealt with the old program.  The gentlemen who was serving as the LNCO was so disconnected and abrupt in his dealings with me and others that we all thought he was AD and had gotten stuck with helping CAP as ADY.  It wasn't until the next year when the State Directors came into play that we found out he was full-time assigned to CAP and just not all that interested in being proactive.

Thankfully the SD we have had since then rocks, and is a strong, pro-active advocate of the program.  I know the others in my Region that I have met or dealt with, personally, have all had similar traits.

Certainly in my wing, anyway, the SD transition was something sorely needed.

I personally believe that the SD's should be much more involved in the operational aspects of the respective wings, and treated as partners instead of
afterthoughts, but that is a command prerogative of the respective Wing CC, and whether or not they are AD isn't going to make any difference in that respect.

Bob, I know of the LNCO of which you speak and believe me he had a few people wondering about him and about a lot more things than the way he dealt with people(aye-yai-yai!).

The reality of it isn't what they are called or whether they are AD, Retired, or Civil Service who are also reservists. It's having a talented and dynamic individual in the position which we are lucky to have had. I was in when we had the AD LO/LNCO and we had some real good people who helped us  a lot.

I have no heartburn with the SD concept. I just feel they should be allowed to wear their uniforms when dealing with CAP business. It looks a little weird to me to have the guy representing the AF at encampments and EVALs wearing khakis and polo or suit and tie instead of dress blues or a flight suit.