CAP NCO's

[BGNightfall]

Of course, my previous argument really only stands if CAP NCOs bother to participate in the PD program at all and attain the same level of proficiency as their officer (who also do not hold a commission but are not non-commissioned) counterparts. 

Therefore I would comment to any CAP members who are currently or are considering becoming NCOs that they should certainly participate in the CAP PD program.  While it may not benefit the uniform they wear in the form of promotions, it certainly speaks to the same professionalism that tends to make a dedicated NCO corps in our organization desirable.  Also it would defray the arguments that certain members on this board make about CAP NCOs wanting to be special or different and not play by the rules.

[Hardshell Clam]

The failure of the "NCO Program" reflects a failure of the leadership in general.

[RiverAux]

Oh, I don't know about that. 

Right now the "program" exists solely as an ego boost for former military NCOs who feel that it is demeaning to be considered a CAP officer.  And so long as it is restricted to former military NCOs it will never amount to anything useful as a "program".  Without changing that provision it certainly isn't worth our leaders time to come up with broader goals for having NCOs in the first place as it just isn't worth it for the 50-100 NCOs we have right now. 

However, if they felt it worthwhile to really expand it beyond PS NCOs, then spending any leadership time on it might be justified. 

[PHall]

Oh, I don't know about that. 

Right now the "program" exists solely as an ego boost for former military NCOs who feel that it is demeaning to be considered a CAP officer.  And so long as it is restricted to former military NCOs it will never amount to anything useful as a "program".  Without changing that provision it certainly isn't worth our leaders time to come up with broader goals for having NCOs in the first place as it just isn't worth it for the 50-100 NCOs we have right now. 

However, if they felt it worthwhile to really expand it beyond PS NCOs, then spending any leadership time on it might be justified.

The only ego that is being boosted is the one that belongs to a certain Retired CMSgt.
Somebody want to explain to me just what are the duties of the CAP Command Chief and why do we have one?

[NCRblues]

Oh, I don't know about that. 

Right now the "program" exists solely as an ego boost for former military NCOs who feel that it is demeaning to be considered a CAP officer.  And so long as it is restricted to former military NCOs it will never amount to anything useful as a "program".  Without changing that provision it certainly isn't worth our leaders time to come up with broader goals for having NCOs in the first place as it just isn't worth it for the 50-100 NCOs we have right now. 

However, if they felt it worthwhile to really expand it beyond PS NCOs, then spending any leadership time on it might be justified.

The only ego that is being boosted is the one that belongs to a certain Retired CMSgt.
Somebody want to explain to me just what are the duties of the CAP Command Chief and why do we have one?

How can you explain something that makes no sense?

Even the newest SM 2nd LT. can do more than that chief, its a waste of time for CAP. It does not make any sense to even have a "command chief".

[Ned]

Even the newest SM 2nd LT. can do more than that chief[.]

Like what?

[JC004]

The only ego that is being boosted is the one that belongs to a certain Retired CMSgt.
Somebody want to explain to me just what are the duties of the CAP Command Chief and why do we have one?

CAPP 20

Responsibilities include:
• Travel on behalf of CAP, as funding allows, to (for example);
o Military Functions
o National Cadet Activities
o Region Conferences
o The National Staff College Graduation
• Encourage the recruitment of Chiefs and NCOs for CAP membership by annual attendance at;
o Region Conferences
o Winter and Summer National Board meetings, as travel budgets allow
• Serve as a representative of the National Commander, as requested
• Review Air Force, CAP-USAF, and CAP Wing Instructions and policies, provide input and recommend changes for those instructions and policies affecting CAP members
• Encourage recognition of deserving CAP NCO members during annual functions
• Encourage NCO mentorship of cadets and junior officer CAP members
• Serve on award and recognition selection committees
• Serve as a member of the CAP Uniform Team
• Promote a strong safety and Operational Risk Management program within CAP
• Perform all other duties as assigned

Why we have one...I have no idea.

[Persona non grata]

When I was at NSC they gave the TOPS a standing ovation(they were students like me) I was like for what, did I miss something....I have come across some that wont address you by your grade but they sure as heck want to be called Chief.  I DO BELIEVE THAT THEY CAN BE EFFECTIVE MEMEBERS AND MOST ARE. Why do we need a Command Chief. If we had a viable and productive NCO program I could see why.

[JC004]

It looks like the purpose is to be a face for National.  I don't really understand.  I'm also confused how this works: "Encourage the recruitment of Chiefs and NCOs for CAP membership by annual attendance at [CAP conferences]."  The rest sounds totally random and the responsibility of commanders or staff officers.

[NCRblues]

Even the newest SM 2nd LT. can do more than that chief[.]

Like what?

oh, like command a squadron and so forth and so on

[PHall]

Even the newest SM 2nd LT. can do more than that chief[.]

Like what?

oh, like command a squadron and so forth and so on

Cite please. Please show where an NCO can't command a unit.

[davidsinn]

Even the newest SM 2nd LT. can do more than that chief[.]

Like what?

oh, like command a squadron and so forth and so on

Cite please. Please show where an NCO can't command a unit.

Please show where one can? It would be absurd for an NCO to hold command over an entire unit of officers.

[lordmonar]

The failure of the "NCO Program" reflects a failure of the leadership in general.

What program.  There is no program.  There is only the rule that allows former NCOs to wear their NCO ransk.

The is no "Program" to fail.

[Extremepredjudice]

If it was integrated better, forcing SMs to hold NCO ranks, than officer ranks would make it viable. Since SMs promote less, either speed up progression through NCO, or have only a few.

Plus don't senior squadrons end up with a bunch of officers?
I don't know, but I would think they would.


If only a NCO was available, I would think they could command. I'd rather an experienced NCO running the show, than an officer who may or may not run the squadron correctly.
Depending the NCO can become 1st LT.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

As is known to many, I support reintegrating both NCO and warrant officer ranks, not that it will ever happen.

However, one thing I am curious about is that page 101 of 39-1 shows Airman through CMSgt as valid CAP ranks, when Amn through SrA are not(?).

To wear stripes on CAP uniform, one must have been minimum of E-5 in the Active, Guard or Reserve Forces (not sure about SDF), correct, or not? 

To my knowledge, a CAP member cannot wear Airman, Airman First Class or Senior Airman stripes as they are not noncommissioned officers.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Plus don't senior squadrons end up with a bunch of officers?
I don't know, but I would think they would.

I was a member of a flying club senior squadron which had a couple of LtCol's and Majors on "command" staff and a lot of second lieutenants who never promoted beyond that, because they weren't interested in PD, just wanted to fly.

[lordmonar]

Cyborg.

The reg on NCO promotion is out of date.

When the USAF did away with the E-4 NCO CAP did not update its regulations to reflect reality.

The inital aim of the reg was to allow former NCO's who did not want to become officers to remain NCOs.

Former NON-NCO enlisted had to become officers.

The regulation did not address current serving enlisted personnel at all.



Said it before....will say it again.......CAP does not need NCO it only makes things that much more compleicated.

[SarDragon]

As Pat explained, the reg is behind reality.

In the Navy, the Marine Corps, and the Army, E-4s are (USN & USMC), or can be (Army) NCOs. If they choose to be CAP NCOs, they should be able to wear appropriate rank insignia. Currently, they can't, because of the confusion in the reg.

[MSgt Van]

There's no reason to have an NCO program since in my opinion the current "officer program" is a joke. Before you pull out the flame throwers keep in mind this opinion is based on my experiences at my squadron. I've got several Lt Col's on the roster. They're useless.  The PD program?  Too many "gimme" promotions, not enough (ok, almost none) based on proven performance.

I truly hope my observations don't apply to your organization. 

[flyboy53]

So tighten up the officer program and recreate the NCO program for those who don't qualify as officers.