CAP NCO's

[Eclipse]

As John says, not  the same thing, either in intention or practical reality..

Really?  No one has to be concerned with the health, welfare, and training of the SMWOGs??

Good to know.   

Why wouldn't a good NCO be a resource for all the non-officers in the unit (inlcuding cadets)?

Because while they may not be officers (yet), but they are also not enlisted.  They are simply "new", and most will be officers in less than a year.  Further, from a duty and expectation standpoint they are equal to everyone else in the room, unlike the typical enlisted person, regardless of service.

Being an NCO does not give you special powers with cadets.  Their experience and ability is a huge factor in their value to CAP, but the stripes have nothing to do with it.

[lordmonar]

Maybe that would be a good point, make a temporary grade position of 1st SGT for one SM in each unit. When you are appointed as 1st SGT, you put that rank on, when you are done with that position, you  put your officer rank back on. Same idea with group and wing and national, have a Command CMSGT at group wing and region levels, and a CMSGT of CAP at national level. Their jobs will be the same as they would be in the USAF.

I already suggested a similar program.

Shot down for a solution looking for a problem.

My ideas was to make the NCO corps a specialty track that anyone could do and anyone could advance in.

MSgt would require a Master Level in the specialty Track.
Squadrons would be allowed 1 First Sgt
Group could appoint SMSgts and wings appoint CMSgts with one CMSgt being appointed Command Chief.  Region and National would also have command chiefs.

Their duties would would be to act as the Uniform Police and Military D&C Czars.

They would be barred from command positions and from other staff positions and from acting as IC/OSC/PSC on the ES side so as not to confuse the chain of command. 

If not actively serving in an NCO slot they would revert to an officer rank.

Rank progression would be as follows.

Level I  - Technician Trainee....SrA (reverts to 2d Lt)
Level I  - Completed Technician SSgt (reverts to 1st Lt)
Level II - Completed Senior TSgt (Reverts to Capt)
Level III - Completed Master MSgt (Reverts to Major).
Level IV - Working at Group level or higher SMSgt
Level V - Working at Wing Level or higher CMSgt

They would have to complete all the promotion requirements for the officer rank before they could wear the NCO rank stated.

Once they have successfully completed a tour (2years?) at group/wing/region then their rank would be permanent if they continue to do NCO duties at a lower level (so yes you can have a CMSgt First Sergeant at the squadron level).

Prior Service NCO's of course can get a leg up and wear their rank they earned with the caveat that they must complete the appropriate CAP PD in a reasonable time frame (this is an idea that I think should be applied to any and all advanced promotion) and they remain working in an NCO billet.

This is a basic frame work.....so don't tear me up too much.  If anyone is intrested in exploring this idea, it would be kind of intresting to see where we could go with it.

As it is now.....CAP NCO's have no job to do, no way to progress in a meaningful manner, and exists in a way that blurs the chain of command lines.

If........IF, a viable NCO corps is a wanted goal....a viable program could be built.

[lordmonar]

The last time numbers were given by NHQ it was about 50 (Fifty) in the entire country.

but there are a whole lot more former NCO's wearing officer ranks then Eservices says.

A lot of us opted for one reason or another to just follow the normal CAP rank structure.

If a viable CAP NCO corps were to be implemented.......then you would see a lot more NCO's.

As it is now....most of CAP NCO's do it just to be different IMHO......as NCO's they don't really have a defined place in CAP.  (again not a bash on those who choose to be CAP NCOs).

[Ned]

[Because while they may not be officers (yet), but they are also not enlisted.  They are simply "new", and most will be officers in less than a year. 

While I certainly agree that no one is serving in CAP under a contract of enlistment, I don't see how that is relevent to the topic at hand.

Of course (most) SMWOGs are new folks.  But I'm sure you would agree with me that the traditional role of the NCO is to deal with new folks.  Watching out for their "health, welfare, training" (as someone pointed out earlier in the thread.)

Further, from a duty and expectation standpoint they are equal to everyone else in the room, unlike the typical enlisted person, regardless of service.

Just like every other member of CAP, with the exception of commanders, who are the only people in CAP with any sort of authority to begin with.

Being an NCO does not give you special powers with cadets.  Their experience and ability is a huge factor in their value to CAP, but the stripes have nothing to do with it.

"Special powers"?  Where did that come from?

Everyone with "experience and ability" can be a resource for our cadets.  And in a very real sense, NCO's stripes have everything to do with that, since that is usually how they got their "abiltity and experience."

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I think the most important thing about an NCO is to lead as one.

I think a cadet could learn A LOT from a SM NCO who knows how to LEAD AS AN NCO. This is easily attained with a simple manual about leading as an NCO, just using an AFMAN would do just fine. No need to write a new one.

[RiverAux]

The last time numbers were given by NHQ it was about 50 (Fifty) in the entire country.

but there are a whole lot more former NCO's wearing officer ranks then Eservices says.

The question was how many NCOs we have now not how many current or former military NCOs that could potentially be CAP NCOs under our current requirements.   

[ZigZag911]

LordM, good start...first reasonable, detailed proposal I've seen about this....at one point, there was an NCO working group at National, led by CAP Command CMSGT...anyone hear any results from that?

[FW]

No results from the "working group" that I've heard from.  BTW; the chairman of the group is our current National CV. 

In any event, it's good to revisit this "discussion" on CAP NCO's and a possible NCO program in CAP.  However, there are good reasons why the old NCO program died years ago.  If a new one is developed, it would have to take in consideration the simple fact that, as civilians, our grade structure has no corelation to Air Force grade; except for title and insignia. 

IMHO, prior military NCO's who insist on wearing chevrons denotes a failure, on our part, to educate them on our history (we haven't had a non military CAP NCO for about 30 years), culture and, grade structure.  To me, there is no reason for CAP to create another class of membership simply to do so.   

[manfredvonrichthofen]

However, there are good reasons why the old NCO program died years ago.

And those good reasons are?

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Two things I see:

1. You must be at least a first lieutenant to be a squadron commander; if you are a CAP EM of any stripe, you automatically become at least a first lieutenant if you accept command of a squadron.

2. The Air Force has eliminated shoulder marks ("epaulets") for all enlisted grades. Stripes are worn on every EM's sleeves, regardless if they're an airman or a chief.

[flyboy53]

No results from the "working group" that I've heard from.  BTW; the chairman of the group is our current National CV. 

In any event, it's good to revisit this "discussion" on CAP NCO's and a possible NCO program in CAP.  However, there are good reasons why the old NCO program died years ago.  If a new one is developed, it would have to take in consideration the simple fact that, as civilians, our grade structure has no corelation to Air Force grade; except for title and insignia. 

IMHO, prior military NCO's who insist on wearing chevrons denotes a failure, on our part, to educate them on our history (we haven't had a non military CAP NCO for about 30 years), culture and, grade structure.  To me, there is no reason for CAP to create another class of membership simply to do so.

From a history standpoint, that's incorrect. There have been enlisted people in the CAP from it's inception. The ranks went away because of abuse. I know because I was a CAP technical sergeant when that happened.

NCOs do not denote a failure in the program. Instead, it would give our program more diversity and more options on how that individual would want to proceed with their training, participation and professional development.

With those ranks, there would be greater oportunities for senior members who do not want to achieve leadership positions. There would be fewer chiefs and more followers. Without those ranks, there has been a gradual dumbing down of the requirements to get promoted to include gross examples of cheating and politicing.

The lack of options produced only one path of upward mobility, which is why it hasn't been embrased now because CAP leadership knows that implementation would mean stronger standards for officers.

Also, I was a career Air Force SNCO. If the CAP program were properly developed, it wouldn't be that difficult to correlate it to the Air Force grade structure. That is why it's appropriate, for now, that only prior military NCOs be in the top ranks. Those same SNCOs, however, would be the appropriate mentors to ensure that the program proceed properly.

If those same SNCOs effectively mentored and developed a program as it should be, I believe the end result would be something with greater prestige than the current CAP officer program. One of the problems, however, is correlating NCO PME, which takes longer than things like SLS' and CLCs.

I might even consider giving up my silver oak leaves and returning to my former enlisted rank.

[FW]

From a history standpoint, that's incorrect. There have been enlisted people in the CAP from it's inception. The ranks went away because of abuse. I know because I was a CAP technical sergeant when that happened.

As I said, there hasn't been a non military CAP NCO for the last 30 years; which is about when the the program died because of abuse and, the perceived treatment differences between CAP officers and NCO's by the general membership and our external "customers".

NCOs do not denote a failure in the program. Instead, it would give our program more diversity and more options on how that individual would want to proceed with their training, participation and professional development.

I never said NCO's denote a failure in the program.  I said it is a failure of the membership to educate military NCO's about our history, grade system and culture; a culture where an NCO grade is superfluous to our current system.   

With those ranks, there would be greater opportunities for senior members who do not want to achieve leadership positions. There would be fewer chiefs and more followers. Without those ranks, there has been a gradual dumbing down of the requirements to get promoted to include gross examples of cheating and politicking.

The lack of options produced only one path of upward mobility, which is why it hasn't been embraced now because CAP leadership knows that implementation would mean stronger standards for officers.

Also, I was a career Air Force SNCO. If the CAP program were properly developed, it wouldn't be that difficult to correlate it to the Air Force grade structure. That is why it's appropriate, for now, that only prior military NCOs be in the top ranks. Those same SNCOs, however, would be the appropriate mentors to ensure that the program proceed properly.

If those same SNCOs effectively mentored and developed a program as it should be, I believe the end result would be something with greater prestige than the current CAP officer program. One of the problems, however, is correlating NCO PME, which takes longer than things like SLS' and CLCs.

I might even consider giving up my silver oak leaves and returning to my former enlisted rank.

I agree, if an NCO program can be developed which is effective and avoids the problems of the past, I'm for it.  However, I think your next to last paragraph points out the basic problem.  I don't think "prestige" is what we are looking for.  I think the goal is effective management of our programs and great leadership for CAP.   IMHO, it is improving CAP which is the most important point of our discussion.

[RiverAux]

NCOs do not denote a failure in the program. Instead, it would give our program more diversity and more options on how that individual would want to proceed with their training, participation and professional development.

It really doesn't give them any options that they don't have other than what grade insignia is on their uniform. 

With those ranks, there would be greater oportunities for senior members who do not want to achieve leadership positions.

There are no requirements that any senior member take on any leadership position now so just what opportunities would be presented to them? 

Without those ranks, there has been a gradual dumbing down of the requirements to get promoted to include gross examples of cheating and politicing.

Huh?  What does that have to do with NCOs?  Are you saying that NCOs would never be involved in cheating or "politics"  How does creating an NCO program have any impact on that? 

There would be fewer chiefs and more followers.

Despite the fact that almost all CAP senior members are officers, there are very few real leaders.  Like with any volunteer organization a small number of people do the majority of the work.  That would not change unless you're saying that if we create an NCO program that the NCOs won't be doing any leading?  Thats just the opposite of what we need which is more people willing to take on leadership roles of one kind or another. 

I would probably be in favor of an NCO program but only if it was coupled with a radical restructuring of all CAP regulations regarding promotions including elimination of ALL special and skills-related appointments (including former military officers).  If every single CAP adult had to start as an Airman and work their way through the system, I'd be for it. 

[a2capt]

NCOs are so rare, in all my CAP time (9.3 years) I've seen exactly one. The Wing logistics officer (not sure he's it's still the same one), and at a few past wing conferences, the paper for the door was even prefixed with a C/CMSgt as if whoever was making those up figured "this can't be right, that has to be a cadet, here, let me fix that.." totally disregarding that it says "Wing Logisitics Officer" under the title.

[ZigZag911]

Two things I see:

1. You must be at least a first lieutenant to be a squadron commander; if you are a CAP EM of any stripe, you automatically become at least a first lieutenant if you accept command of a squadron.

2. The Air Force has eliminated shoulder marks ("epaulets") for all enlisted grades. Stripes are worn on every EM's sleeves, regardless if they're an airman or a chief.

Absolutely concur w. #1, would extend requirement to include that deputies must be at least 2 Lt.

As for #2, if the shoulder marks (or some variation on them) were available, this might be a good way to distinguish CAP NCOs from USAF.

Finally, I must agree with Col. Weiss: we need to determine the purpose of a CAP NCO corps (specialty track?) before going forward.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Two things I see:

1. You must be at least a first lieutenant to be a squadron commander; if you are a CAP EM of any stripe, you automatically become at least a first lieutenant if you accept command of a squadron.

2. The Air Force has eliminated shoulder marks ("epaulets") for all enlisted grades. Stripes are worn on every EM's sleeves, regardless if they're an airman or a chief.

Absolutely concur w. #1, would extend requirement to include that deputies must be at least 2 Lt.

As for #2, if the shoulder marks (or some variation on them) were available, this might be a good way to distinguish CAP NCOs from USAF.

Finally, I must agree with Col. Weiss: we need to determine the purpose of a CAP NCO corps (specialty track?) before going forward.

On No. 1: Hard to just agree with that. It's actually in regulation.

As for CAP NCO specialty tracks: Many of the current specialty tracks may be adopted. For instance, the Air Force has career paths for both officers and enlisted in public affairs -- and there's no reason we couldn't do the same for CAP officers and enlisted. Some tracks won't translate for enlisted personnel, and some quals and specialties won't be open to enlisted personnel (enlisted wouldn't be pilots and probably not observers, for instance, nor would they do the organizational excellence track).

[Spaceman3750]

Two things I see:

1. You must be at least a first lieutenant to be a squadron commander; if you are a CAP EM of any stripe, you automatically become at least a first lieutenant if you accept command of a squadron.

2. The Air Force has eliminated shoulder marks ("epaulets") for all enlisted grades. Stripes are worn on every EM's sleeves, regardless if they're an airman or a chief.

Absolutely concur w. #1, would extend requirement to include that deputies must be at least 2 Lt.

As for #2, if the shoulder marks (or some variation on them) were available, this might be a good way to distinguish CAP NCOs from USAF.

Finally, I must agree with Col. Weiss: we need to determine the purpose of a CAP NCO corps (specialty track?) before going forward.

On No. 1: Hard to just agree with that. It's actually in regulation.

and there's no reason we couldn't do the same for CAP officers and enlisted.

Except for the fact that we have tracks that haven't been updated in a decade, and that's just a single track.

[PaulR]

"you need to be a Major to go to NSC and that's a requirement for it? "

If an NCO's completed military leadership training (NCO Academy, etc) that counts.  In my squadron a SMSgt and myself are complete through NSC.

Does the Coast Guard's Chief Petty Officer's Academy count for this as well? 

[SARDOC]

"you need to be a Major to go to NSC and that's a requirement for it? "

If an NCO's completed military leadership training (NCO Academy, etc) that counts.  In my squadron a SMSgt and myself are complete through NSC.

Does the Coast Guard's Chief Petty Officer's Academy count for this as well?

CAPR 50-17 Attachment 2 states "Any US Armed Forces Senior NCO Academy, resident or correspondence" can be accepted as Equivalent to National Staff College.

I would think the CPO Academy would be included in that reference

[Al Sayre]

Very likely, I used Navy LMET for ECI 113 Credit.  Cll NHQ, and you may need to email them the course description from the ACE guide.  Your Education Office should have it.