SM vs C/AB - Why the discrepancy?

[RiverAux]

We have had many, many discussions here about the oddball position that new senior members are put in when they join.  When being referred to officially they are called Senior Member Jones (SM Jones) as if "Senior Member" were a CAP grade.  The fact that such people are referred to in the regulations as "senior members without grade" obviously means that they don't have a CAP grade though they are given a title that makes it seem like they do.

We've had quite a few different proposals with dealing with new senior members ranging from calling them "Officer Candidates" to making them "Airmen" until they can jump up to 2nd Lt. (or whatever other rank they can get while taking advantage of the various special or mission-related promotion opportunities we have available.

However, the one thing that I don't think has ever been brought up here is the fact that we're treating new cadets and new seniors differently.  When a cadert joins they are immediately assigned the rank of Cadet Airman Basic.  They don't exist in some limbo phase as a "Cadet without grade" until they complete the Curry and go to Cadet Airman. 

So, shouldn't we be giving new senior members SOME sort of grade?

[Eclipse]

New Senior Members are just that - SM.  The "WOG" is unofficial terminology we've adopted over time.  Their grade is "SM".

[a2capt]

Perhaps theres some sort of influence by the "temporary" standing until the background check is completed. Although the limbo does not change until 2Lt is applied for, and granted.

OTOH, I just get the impression that 'SM' is the grade. The WOG is something that .. just became.


Where as since the cadet application is processed immediately.

[FlyTiger77]

New Senior Members are just that - SM.  The "WOG" is unofficial terminology we've adopted over time.  Their grade is "SM".

As we are evolving, just evolve the unofficial terminology to "without higher grade."

[JoeTomasone]

New Senior Members are just that - SM.  The "WOG" is unofficial terminology we've adopted over time.  Their grade is "SM".

No, the regs are pretty clear that they are, in fact, Senior Members "without grade".

4. Initial Grades. All senior members will be enrolled as CAP senior members without grade, unless they are specifically exempt from Level I of the Senior Member Professional Development Program and immediately qualify for an officer grade in consideration of previous CAP experience, as set forth in section C.

30. General. Only senior members under 21 years of age will be appointed to or promoted to the flight officer grades. This category is designed as a transition for cadets transferring to senior member status and for those senior members who are otherwise eligible for CAP officer grade except that they have not yet reached the minimum age of 21. Upon reaching age 21, the member will be appointed to an appropriate officer grade or will be classified as a senior member without grade until he or she is eligible for promotion to officer grade.

..I could go on, but you get the point.

[RiverAux]

New Senior Members are just that - SM.  The "WOG" is unofficial terminology we've adopted over time.  Their grade is "SM".

Which is what I said.  I didn't use the SMWOG common on CAPTalk.  But, there are numerous references to "senior members without grade" in the regulations. 

[Eclipse]

The grade is "SM", not SM WOG - if you don't believe me, check eServices or the ID cards.

Nowhere is SMWOG listed as a grade identifier.

What Joe has listed is a sentence and statement of fact, not a grade or identifier.

[SarDragon]

'SM' is ambiguous. It can refer to all adult members as one large group (the senior members), and it is used that way quite often. It can also refer to those adult members who are at the bottom on the rank structure. In informal communication, it is usually clear from the context which meaning is desired.

'Senior members without grade' allows us to talk about that second group without the ambiguity. 'SM' functions as the grade the abbreviation for this group, when needed.

But, there are numerous references to "senior members without grade" in the regulations. 

Looking at the two references quoted above, specifically the bolded parts, can any of you show us a better way to differentiate between my two groups than the one in use?

[MIKE]

FNG or "Cherry" works for me.

[Eclipse]

In what context would you need to distinguish between an "SM" and an "SMWOG"?  Once they are approved by NHQ, the grade is fairly irrelevant in terms of participation.

[lordmonar]

What we have here is several related but separate issues.

A new adult member in CAP is referred to in the regulations as SMWOG.
By definition they have no grade.
But their title is senior member (SM).

Is this confusing?  Not really...only if you want to be nit picky about it.

Do SM have grade?  Sure thing...they are SMWOG.  Even it that is a contradiction in terms.

But we deal with that all the time.

We have Officers and we have Enlisted....even if half the enlisted personnel have the word "officer" in their title!

So is a Staff Sergeant an officer?   It says so right there on my certificate of appointment to the Non Commissioned OFFICER corps.

But we live with this contradition in terms all the time.

The initial "grade" for all new members is "SMWOG" and he is referred to as "senior member" or "Mr/Ms".

Any one have any problems understanding that?

[SarDragon]

In what context would you need to distinguish between an "SM" and an "SMWOG"?  Once they are approved by NHQ, the grade is fairly irrelevant in terms of participation.

'SM' as an abbreviation fills the grade block as needed (forms, rosters, etc).

'Senior member without grade', never abbreviated, distinguishes the two groups of adult members I spoke of above, as is done in the bolded text I referred to.

[Eclipse]

This entire conversation is lowering our IQ's...

It has also been hashed out a number of times to no resolution before.

[RiverAux]

Except that no one is actually talking about the discrepancy I pointed out between how we treat new cadets vs how we treat new seniors. 

[SarDragon]

What we have here is several related but separate issues.

A new adult member in CAP is referred to in the regulations as SMWOG.
By definition they have no grade.
But their title is senior member (SM).

Incorrect. The "grade" is SM. "SMWOG is NEVER used as an abbreviation. You only see it spelled out, referring to that particular level of members as a group.

Is this confusing?  Not really...only if you want to be nit picky about it.

Do SM have grade?  Sure thing...they are SMWOG.  Even it that is a contradiction in terms.

Again, incorrect. See above.

But we deal with that all the time.

We have Officers and we have Enlisted....even if half the enlisted personnel have the word "officer" in their title!

So is a Staff Sergeant an officer?   It says so right there on my certificate of appointment to the Non Commissioned OFFICER corps.

But we live with this contradition in terms all the time.

The initial "grade" for all new members is "SMWOG" and he is referred to as "senior member" or "Mr/Ms".

Any one have any problems understanding that?

Apparently, a lot of people. Here's another instance where word-of-mouth has overwhelmed what's written in the regs, and people have done their very best to over complicate things. We need to invoke "KISS" and get people up to speed on what's really correct.

[SarDragon]

Except that no one is actually talking about the discrepancy I pointed out between how we treat new cadets vs how we treat new seniors.

I don't see what the problem is, other than the lack of understanding of what is being read in the regs.

New cadet = C/AB.

New adult member = SM.

What's the discrepancy?

I have discussed the ambiguity issue above, and it seems pretty simple to me.

[lordmonar]

Dave....I use SMWOG only because I was too lazy to spell it out. 

[Eclipse]

Except that no one is actually talking about the discrepancy I pointed out between how we treat new cadets vs how we treat new seniors.

True.

Cadets are welcomed to the the next BBQ and begin a rich, rewarding journey towards being better citizens and community leaders.

Seniors are immediately overwhelmed with 12 staff positions and more work than most do during their full time employment, which only increases as they show a competency in a given area.

However I don't see that changing with a different grade indicator.

[RiverAux]

I don't see what the problem is, other than the lack of understanding of what is being read in the regs.

New cadet = C/AB.
New adult member = SM.

What's the discrepancy?

This discrepancy is that C/AB IS A GRADE.  SM is not. 

[SarDragon]

I don't see what the problem is, other than the lack of understanding of what is being read in the regs.

New cadet = C/AB.
New adult member = SM.

What's the discrepancy?

This discrepancy is that C/AB IS A GRADE.  SM is not.

Then why is it used to fill the grade block on forms and membership cards?

It's even in the grade listing in CAPP 151. It it absent from the list in CAPR 35-5. The 151 is newer.

Here's another example where the left hand isn't talking to the right hand.