Are CAP Senior NCO ranks coming back?

Started by RVT, June 30, 2010, 12:17:56 AM

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Short Field

Quote from: Lt Oliv on July 04, 2010, 12:48:05 AM
If you want to treat NCO grades as a "stepping stone" then your only military experience is probably from watching Star Trek and trying to piece it together from there.
Or the CAP Cadet Program.
Quote from: Lt Oliv on July 04, 2010, 12:48:05 AM
If it isn't broken, don't fix it. And if you don't know what you are talking about, keep your mouth shut.
:clap:
SAR/DR MP, ARCHOP, AOBD, GTM1, GBD, LSC, FASC, LO, PIO, MSO(T), & IC2
Wilson #2640

Ned

Quote from: arajca on July 04, 2010, 01:56:31 AM
The main justification that I have seen for expanding it is the fallacious argument that wearing stripes makes one a better role model for cadets than wearing bars/leafs/eagles/stars.

Really?  Fallacious?

Please explain that to me.  I understand that you may disagree, but fallacious?

Quote from: Inigo MontoyaYou keep using that word.  I don't think it means what you think it means.

andysum15

As you all know by now I am a former RAF/ATC member, I was an NCO in the ATC as a cadet before enlisting in the RAF where I became an NCO before my 12 year career ended. I then went back to the ATC where I started as a Warrant Officer the only NCO rank at the time, Sergeant and Flight sergeant have since been added. I then took my commission in the RAFVR(T) and eventually was given my own cadet squadron. So with that in mind you can understand my puzzlement when I hear people saying there is no need or we should not have NCO ranks for senior members with in the CAP. From my experience some people make better officers having served as an NCO (Me included) some people make excellent officers and should never be NCO and others make excellent NCO and should never be officer.

As far as I see it Officers and NCO's play a special roll and a valuable roll. NCO ranks at the very least would be a way of showing progress with out the extra responsibility that an officer would have. I think it would have a very valid roll particularly with in cadet programs. There are people with in CAP that do a fabulous job but will never have the wish to become a squadron commander or higher. Why therefore give these people officer ranks. With in the ATC the highest rank is the commander. Yes I know the system is different here in the CAP and both are excellent organisations in their own right, but I still find it strange even after almost six years service that you can have a 1Lt in charge of a squadron that has Lt Col's or Majors in it.

Cadets have asked me in the past why there are no NCO senior members. They look at their rank/grade structure and wonder why ours is so different. Alas why not have NCO's they are the back bone of our armed services and emergency services, why not CAP.
Maj. Andy Sumner

flyboy53

#63
Quote from: FW on June 30, 2010, 02:04:23 AM
A committee was formed about 2 years ago to study this issue and come up with recommendations for a CAP NCO program.  However, all we have to date is what is in the NB minutes.  I have no idea what will eventually proposed. 

IMHO, I think the NCO grades for CAP senior members make no sense.  It will not change our culture, will not improve our uniform issues, will not increase recruitment, will not increase retention, will not motivate our cadets, will not increase our customer base, will not improve our PD program and, will not make CAP a better organization (if I've left anything out, forgive me.... :D )

CAP's NCO program died years ago for good reasons.  And, I'm not one for raising the dead.  >:D

Sir, I disagree.

I was one of those former CAP NCOs that advanced into the officer corps. Although I agree with you that the current culture works just fine for many, there are select few individuals who enter this program who shouldn't be officers and wreak havoc when they advance to those ranks.

In our current organizational cluture, advancing in rank and awards are about all that you can offer a CAP senior member in recognition of faithful service. Our awards program is a joke, the piles of ribbons really don't amount to much, but that's another story. However, if all of the senior members (officers) advanced through the program like they should, eventually you'll have a bunch of lieutenant colonels running around with no upward mobility other than vying for wing, region, or NHQ assigments...and that, by the way, becomes a retention problem.

The standard response to that comment is that completing time and grade and training does not guarantee promotion. Then you have a morale problem because there really isn't upward mobility unless you are noticed at wing level.

So you have NCOs. The level of PD training I had as an Air Force SNCO is not even close to what a current CAP officer is required to complete until you start getting beyond Level II. NCOs are mid-level supervisors, something that our culture doesn't have and really does need.





flyboy53

#64
Quote from: FW on July 01, 2010, 01:00:39 PM
To  have an effective "NCO Corps", CAP (members) must be willing to create and live with two distinct levels of active membership.  In an organization such as ours, I think that would be extremely difficult.  It is the main reason, IMO,  the NCO program died years ago. 

In the cadet program, it would be great to have an adult "NCO" to give that "direct leadership" experience to the cadets however, it may be better for our senior CP officers to guide our cadet NCO's to properly direct cadet airman.  The leadership laboratory should be designed for cadets to get the experience "hands on".  This makes the preference for senior member NCO's less important in the scheme of things.  I'm convinced there is no "need" for NCO's in CAP, no need for them in cadet programs and certainly, no need for them in the senior PD program.

The reason why the NCO program died was bacause it was abused. I know, I was there. It became an embarrassment to the Air Force, NCO professional organizations, and the Air Force NCO Corps.

Promotions were then controlled locally by a squadron commander. A person would come in off the streets and become an instant master sergeant without any of the training necessary for that rank. And they conducted their duties just like all those people in really bad war movies.

I also am aware of one instance where it was political. An individual was a wartime CAP officer (captain), had been a squadron commander, unit organizer, did active service, and was well-respected in the community. He was a threat to both the squadron and group commanders and was made a master sergeant when he returned....and you don't think politics doesn't run rampant in this organization.

By the way, that man eventually got his rank....after NHQ learned that the wartime promotion to captain was from John F. Curry himself.

wuzafuzz

Our current grade structure is darn near useless and there is little or no benefit to growing it.
"You can't stop the signal, Mal."

HGjunkie

Quote from: andysum15 on July 04, 2010, 09:05:10 AM
As you all know by now I am a former RAF/ATC member, I was an NCO in the ATC as a cadet before enlisting in the RAF where I became an NCO before my 12 year career ended. I then went back to the ATC where I started as a Warrant Officer the only NCO rank at the time, Sergeant and Flight sergeant have since been added. I then took my commission in the RAFVR(T) and eventually was given my own cadet squadron. So with that in mind you can understand my puzzlement when I hear people saying there is no need or we should not have NCO ranks for senior members with in the CAP. From my experience some people make better officers having served as an NCO (Me included) some people make excellent officers and should never be NCO and others make excellent NCO and should never be officer.

As far as I see it Officers and NCO's play a special roll and a valuable roll. NCO ranks at the very least would be a way of showing progress with out the extra responsibility that an officer would have. I think it would have a very valid roll particularly with in cadet programs. There are people with in CAP that do a fabulous job but will never have the wish to become a squadron commander or higher. Why therefore give these people officer ranks. With in the ATC the highest rank is the commander. Yes I know the system is different here in the CAP and both are excellent organisations in their own right, but I still find it strange even after almost six years service that you can have a 1Lt in charge of a squadron that has Lt Col's or Majors in it.

Cadets have asked me in the past why there are no NCO senior members. They look at their rank/grade structure and wonder why ours is so different. Alas why not have NCO's they are the back bone of our armed services and emergency services, why not CAP.
Because, we DO NOT, READ DO NOT need a whole new rank structure to clog up the manuals. If we have managed to survive for several decades without a CAP NCO program, then guess what? We can still survive without it. NCO's are the backbone of the military simply because they are a gateway from the officers to the enlistees, they also are specially trained at their MOS. CAP IS NOT THE MILITARY. We use officers, and that's it. besides, what would cadets do about saluting a CAP SM NCO? Think about it.
••• retired
2d Lt USAF

flyboy53

Quote from: HGjunkie on July 04, 2010, 01:56:55 PM
Quote from: andysum15 on July 04, 2010, 09:05:10 AM
As you all know by now I am a former RAF/ATC member, I was an NCO in the ATC as a cadet before enlisting in the RAF where I became an NCO before my 12 year career ended. I then went back to the ATC where I started as a Warrant Officer the only NCO rank at the time, Sergeant and Flight sergeant have since been added. I then took my commission in the RAFVR(T) and eventually was given my own cadet squadron. So with that in mind you can understand my puzzlement when I hear people saying there is no need or we should not have NCO ranks for senior members with in the CAP. From my experience some people make better officers having served as an NCO (Me included) some people make excellent officers and should never be NCO and others make excellent NCO and should never be officer.

As far as I see it Officers and NCO's play a special roll and a valuable roll. NCO ranks at the very least would be a way of showing progress with out the extra responsibility that an officer would have. I think it would have a very valid roll particularly with in cadet programs. There are people with in CAP that do a fabulous job but will never have the wish to become a squadron commander or higher. Why therefore give these people officer ranks. With in the ATC the highest rank is the commander. Yes I know the system is different here in the CAP and both are excellent organisations in their own right, but I still find it strange even after almost six years service that you can have a 1Lt in charge of a squadron that has Lt Col's or Majors in it.

Cadets have asked me in the past why there are no NCO senior members. They look at their rank/grade structure and wonder why ours is so different. Alas why not have NCO's they are the back bone of our armed services and emergency services, why not CAP.
Because, we DO NOT, READ DO NOT need a whole new rank structure to clog up the manuals. If we have managed to survive for several decades without a CAP NCO program, then guess what? We can still survive without it. NCO's are the backbone of the military simply because they are a gateway from the officers to the enlistees, they also are specially trained at their MOS. CAP IS NOT THE MILITARY. We use officers, and that's it. besides, what would cadets do about saluting a CAP SM NCO? Think about it.

Son, you need a serious attitude change. For that matter, you need to do some serious reading yourself. You don't salute an NCO! As far as your logic, let's say that justification to elminate your cadet rank as well. So, how would it feel just being a cadet, no rank at all.

arajca

Quote from: Ned on July 04, 2010, 06:41:16 AM
Quote from: arajca on July 04, 2010, 01:56:31 AM
The main justification that I have seen for expanding it is the fallacious argument that wearing stripes makes one a better role model for cadets than wearing bars/leafs/eagles/stars.

Really?  Fallacious?

Please explain that to me.  I understand that you may disagree, but fallacious?
Hyperthetical:
Two retired AF SMSgts join CAP. SMSgt 1 decides to take the officer track, receiving his silver bars after completing Level 1. SMSgt 2 decides, since he didn't care for officers in the AF, to keep his stripes. Who is the better role model for cadets?

Before you start wanting specifics on clarifications and details on each, remember this whole argument is based on the general notion that ALL CAP NCOs are better role models for cadets than ALL CAP officers.

However for the sake of discussion: SMSgt 1 was a Senior Drill Instructor before retiring and SMSgt 2 was a missile maintainer.

HGjunkie

Quote from: flyboy1 on July 04, 2010, 02:09:46 PM
Quote from: HGjunkie on July 04, 2010, 01:56:55 PM
Quote from: andysum15 on July 04, 2010, 09:05:10 AM
As you all know by now I am a former RAF/ATC member, I was an NCO in the ATC as a cadet before enlisting in the RAF where I became an NCO before my 12 year career ended. I then went back to the ATC where I started as a Warrant Officer the only NCO rank at the time, Sergeant and Flight sergeant have since been added. I then took my commission in the RAFVR(T) and eventually was given my own cadet squadron. So with that in mind you can understand my puzzlement when I hear people saying there is no need or we should not have NCO ranks for senior members with in the CAP. From my experience some people make better officers having served as an NCO (Me included) some people make excellent officers and should never be NCO and others make excellent NCO and should never be officer.

As far as I see it Officers and NCO's play a special roll and a valuable roll. NCO ranks at the very least would be a way of showing progress with out the extra responsibility that an officer would have. I think it would have a very valid roll particularly with in cadet programs. There are people with in CAP that do a fabulous job but will never have the wish to become a squadron commander or higher. Why therefore give these people officer ranks. With in the ATC the highest rank is the commander. Yes I know the system is different here in the CAP and both are excellent organisations in their own right, but I still find it strange even after almost six years service that you can have a 1Lt in charge of a squadron that has Lt Col's or Majors in it.

Cadets have asked me in the past why there are no NCO senior members. They look at their rank/grade structure and wonder why ours is so different. Alas why not have NCO's they are the back bone of our armed services and emergency services, why not CAP.
Because, we DO NOT, READ DO NOT need a whole new rank structure to clog up the manuals. If we have managed to survive for several decades without a CAP NCO program, then guess what? We can still survive without it. NCO's are the backbone of the military simply because they are a gateway from the officers to the enlistees, they also are specially trained at their MOS. CAP IS NOT THE MILITARY. We use officers, and that's it. besides, what would cadets do about saluting a CAP SM NCO? Think about it.

Son, you need a serious attitude change. For that matter, you need to do some serious reading yourself. You don't salute an NCO! As far as your logic, let's say that justification to elminate your cadet rank as well. So, how would it feel just being a cadet, no rank at all.
1)Excuse me?

2)Since when did this change into eliminating cadet rank? Care to elaborate?
••• retired
2d Lt USAF

RiverAux

Quote from: andysum15 on July 04, 2010, 09:05:10 AM
From my experience some people make better officers having served as an NCO (Me included) some people make excellent officers and should never be NCO and others make excellent NCO and should never be officer.

I think the issue is that there is no real meaning to serving as an NCO in CAP that would confer any training or experience to those members that is any different from that received by those in the CAP officer ranks.  There is a real qualitative difference between NCOs and Officers in the real military.  In CAP, there is not.  Heck, there is no real difference between being a CAP 2nd Lt. and being a CAP Lt. Col. 

Ned

Quote from: arajca on July 04, 2010, 02:21:34 PM

Hyperthetical:
Two retired AF SMSgts join CAP. ( . . .) Who is the better role model for cadets?

Before you start wanting specifics on clarifications and details on each, remember this whole argument is based on the general notion that ALL CAP NCOs are better role models for cadets than ALL CAP officers.

Aha,  I think I see the problem.

No one (especially me) is saying that "ALL CAP NCOs are better role models for cadets than ALL CAP officers."

All we are saying in this context is that - when it comes time to model NCO behaviors and leadership styles for our cadet NCOs - CAP NCOs can be more effective role models than officers.

For the simple reason that the CAP NCOs can directly model successful NCO leadership styles in ways that officers cannot, because the officers are officers and tend to act like officers.

Nothing more sinister than that.  Which is pretty much the definition of "role model", BTW.  "Someone worthy of imitiation."

Restating, since cadets need to learn NCO leadership styles and behaviors before they need to learn officer leadership styles and behaviors, it might be useful to have a high-speed NCO  at the unit to watch and imitate.

Kinda like a role model.

Getting back to your hypothtical the answer is :"Both can be outstanding role models.  One will model officer leadership styles and behaviors, the other can model NCO styles and behaviors."


Short Field

Quote from: Ned on July 04, 2010, 03:04:40 PM
Restating, since cadets need to learn NCO leadership styles and behaviors before they need to learn officer leadership styles and behaviors, it might be useful to have a high-speed NCO  at the unit to watch and imitate.
And just how is CAP going to develop a high-speed NCO?  And what makes the high-speed NCO any different than if he was a CAP officer?  And who is going to tell the low-speed NCOs that we don't want them wearing CAP NCO rank and they need to wear CAP Officer rank instead?  Boy, that is something we want to teach cadets, "If you can't make it as a high-speed NCO, we will force you to be a CAP Officer!"  Talk about role models....
SAR/DR MP, ARCHOP, AOBD, GTM1, GBD, LSC, FASC, LO, PIO, MSO(T), & IC2
Wilson #2640

RiverAux

Quote from: Ned on July 04, 2010, 03:04:40 PM
All we are saying in this context is that - when it comes time to model NCO behaviors and leadership styles for our cadet NCOs - CAP NCOs can be more effective role models than officers.

For the simple reason that the CAP NCOs can directly model successful NCO leadership styles in ways that officers cannot, because the officers are officers and tend to act like officers.
But, who will the CAP NCOs be leading in order to demonstrate their leadership styles?  In all liklihood they will be the only non-officer senior member in the squadron.  If they actually do hold some sort of leadership role in the unit, it will most likely be in a staff position normally filled by an officer, so that won't work. 

Remembering back to when I was a young cadet, I know a lot of us looked up to this National Guard NCO (don't remember his rank) in the unit, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't because he was a CAP NCO.  It was because he was in the militar right then.  There were several other older veterans, but they were just seen as regular adults.  Though my home unit now doesn't have any NCOs, we often have active duty AF officers who are members and I"m pretty sure the cadets look up to them, not because they are Captains, but because they are real military officers RIGHT NOW. 

I really don't think CAP cadets are going to have any special recognition for a 60 year-old guy who has been out of the military for 35 years just because he is wearing stripes.  I don't think he will be looked on as any different than any other CAP officer.

But, bring in a 25 year old NCO who just got back from Afghanistan and we're talking about an entirely different scenario. 

Lt Oliv

You don't need to learn NCO leadership styles before Officer Leadership styles, if you believe that, please, 2B yourself. Go sit in the corner and think about what you've done.

In the RM, you can become an Officer after 4 years of ROTC or 13 weeks of OCS if you come fresh with a Bachelors degree already in hand. You don't go through NCO training or rank structures before putting on your butter bars.

Enlisted and Commissioned are two different worlds. While in yesteryear they were separate classes (officers had college education, enlisted were grunts), that is even starting to shift in the RM. Now, it is not unheard of to have enlisted folks who have Bachelors (or even Masters) degrees. The difference is in what they do. Enlisted folks serve as the field level technicians, while Officers are Administrators.

Undoubtedly, some intelligent soul is going to remind me that "we are not the military! We are CAP!"

Fine. Then go turn in all of your USAF style uniforms, wear only the whites/greys. You cannot have it both ways. Either we are made in the image of the Air Force, or we are an independent organization that can do whatever we want with ranks, just like a Volunteer Fire Company. Pick one. But if you pick the AF way, remember that to whom much is given, much is expected.


Lt Oliv

Quote from: RiverAux on July 04, 2010, 03:23:36 PM
Quote from: Ned on July 04, 2010, 03:04:40 PM
All we are saying in this context is that - when it comes time to model NCO behaviors and leadership styles for our cadet NCOs - CAP NCOs can be more effective role models than officers.

For the simple reason that the CAP NCOs can directly model successful NCO leadership styles in ways that officers cannot, because the officers are officers and tend to act like officers.
But, who will the CAP NCOs be leading in order to demonstrate their leadership styles?  In all liklihood they will be the only non-officer senior member in the squadron.  If they actually do hold some sort of leadership role in the unit, it will most likely be in a staff position normally filled by an officer, so that won't work. 

Remembering back to when I was a young cadet, I know a lot of us looked up to this National Guard NCO (don't remember his rank) in the unit, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't because he was a CAP NCO.  It was because he was in the militar right then.  There were several other older veterans, but they were just seen as regular adults.  Though my home unit now doesn't have any NCOs, we often have active duty AF officers who are members and I"m pretty sure the cadets look up to them, not because they are Captains, but because they are real military officers RIGHT NOW. 

I really don't think CAP cadets are going to have any special recognition for a 60 year-old guy who has been out of the military for 35 years just because he is wearing stripes.  I don't think he will be looked on as any different than any other CAP officer.

But, bring in a 25 year old NCO who just got back from Afghanistan and we're talking about an entirely different scenario.

I was a Petty Officer, and I served during Enduring Freedom, but I wear bars. Cadets (or anyone who wishes to look up my ribbons) will know that I was there. Why do I need the stripes? Do the stripes lend more credibility to my military service than bars?

Why do we keep focusing on this fictional old man who used to be an NCO? Even a retired NCO/Petty officer could be 38 (perhaps old to a cadet, but come on..).

In my unit, many of us are vets. Some enlisted, some officers. We are all CAP Officers. Perhaps we should be trying to instill a general respect for all veterans in cadets rather than simply catering to their whims? Perhaps the lesson we should be conveying to cadets is that the 60 year old former NCO is just as "cool" as the 25 year old former NCO.

People keep talking about "leading by example" but I don't see anyone really willing to do it.

Ned

Quote from: Lt Oliv on July 04, 2010, 03:27:20 PM
You don't need to learn NCO leadership styles before Officer Leadership styles, if you believe that, please, 2B yourself. Go sit in the corner and think about what you've done.

(. . .)

Then go turn in all of your USAF style uniforms, wear only the whites/greys. You cannot have it both ways. Either we are made in the image of the Air Force, or we are an independent organization that can do whatever we want with ranks, just like a Volunteer Fire Company. Pick one. But if you pick the AF way, remember that to whom much is given, much is expected.

Sigh.

So much certainty, so little CP experience.

Please take a moment and reflect on our highly successful cadet program.

You will undoubtedly notice that for something like 60 years or so, our cadets have progressed though a leadership laboratory by starting as a Cadet Airman and moving up through the cadet officer grades.

IOW, if they hang around long enough, they spend time as cadet airmen, cadet NCOs, and finally as cadet officers.  Along the way, they learn followership skills as airmen, "first line supervisor" skills as NCOs, and indirect leadership skills as cadet officers in our hands-on leadership development program.

So, as cadets progress through our program they need to master both NCO and officer skillsets.  Using your terminology, they need to "live in both worlds" to successfully complete our program.

Wouldn't it be nice if they had an NCO role model while learning NCO skills?

(Can I come out of the corner now?)

Quote from: RiverAuxBut, who will the CAP NCOs be leading in order to demonstrate their leadership styles?  In all liklihood they will be the only non-officer senior member in the squadron.  If they actually do hold some sort of leadership role in the unit, it will most likely be in a staff position normally filled by an officer, so that won't work. 

Well, in a cadet unit, the NCO could lead and coach . . . cadets.  An NCO could successfully fill any of the critical staff jobs at a typical unit (LO, DCC, etc.)

Obviously in most units those roles are filled by officers, but I'm not clear on why you think it "wouldn't work" to have an NCO in them.

QuoteRemembering back to when I was a young cadet, I know a lot of us looked up to this National Guard NCO (don't remember his rank) in the unit, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't because he was a CAP NCO.

Again, this isn't about who is worthy of respect and who isn't. 

NCOs and officers have different leadership styles and techniques.  Our cadets progress through a program that calls for them to master both NCO and officer leadership styles.  Wouldn't it be nice for them to have one or more NCO role models at the unit so they can see and appreciate the differences and imitate the NCO behaviors while in Phase II?


QuoteI really don't think CAP cadets are going to have any special recognition for a 60 year-old guy who has been out of the military for 35 years just because he is wearing stripes.  I don't think he will be looked on as any different than any other CAP officer.

Successful role models - whether they wear stripes or officer insignia - are NOT role models becasue of what they did 35 years ago.  They are role models because of what they are doing right now.  That's the definition of a role model - someone worthy of imitation.


RiverAux

Quote
But, who Well, in a cadet unit, the NCO could lead and coach . . . cadets.  An NCO could successfully fill any of the critical staff jobs at a typical unit (LO, DCC, etc.)

Obviously in most units those roles are filled by officers, but I'm not clear on why you think it "wouldn't work" to have an NCO in them.
Oh, the job would get done with an NCO in them, but it wouldn't be done any differently because an NCO was in them.  You were emphasizing that there is some sort of special NCO leadership style.  If they are performing the exact same job as a CAP officer would normally do, how is this special leadership style going to manifest itself?  How is a CAP NCO going to do the maintenance officer job differently than a CAP Captain so that these NCO leadership skills show themselves?   

Yes, the NCO will have plenty of opportunities to demonstrate leadership, its just that they will have the exact same opportunities to do so whether they are an NCO or an officer and the results will look 100% the same. 

Now, if we want to limit the role of CAP NCOs to serving in cadet and composite squadrons where their primary duty is to advise cadet NCOs, that would at least give them some explicit reason for being in existence.  Its just unnecessary since that same person could do the exact same thing as a CAP officer.

lordmonar

Quote from: HGjunkie on July 04, 2010, 01:56:55 PMBecause, we DO NOT, READ DO NOT need a whole new rank structure to clog up the manuals. If we have managed to survive for several decades without a CAP NCO program, then guess what? We can still survive without it.
I agree with you up to this point.

Quote from: HGjunkie on July 04, 2010, 01:56:55 PMNCO's are the backbone of the military simply because they are a gateway from the officers to the enlistees, they also are specially trained at their MOS.
Would care to educate me on what you mean by "gateway"?

Quote from: HGjunkie on July 04, 2010, 01:56:55 PMCAP IS NOT THE MILITARY. We use officers, and that's it.
The only problem with this argument is......then why use officers either?  If we are not the "military" then we can call our squadron commanders "station leaders" and do away with all ranks and uniforms.  While it is true we are not active duty military we are the volunteer axillary to the military and we have modeled ourselves on the military structure.  A better argument would be to say....we structure our units on the model of the operational flying squadron (say a fighter or bomber squadron) that would have only 8-10 enlisted guys in a 200+ person squadron.  They do great with very little NCOs.   


Quote from: HGjunkie on July 04, 2010, 01:56:55 PMbesides, what would cadets do about saluting a CAP SM NCO? Think about it.
That one is just dumb.....and ruins your entire credibility.  YOU DON'T SALUTE NCOs....no need to think about it.  Cadets don't salute RM NCOs so why would they salute CAP NCOs?
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Ned

Quote from: RiverAux on July 04, 2010, 04:04:35 PM
[Oh, the job would get done with an NCO in them, but it wouldn't be done any differently because an NCO was in them.

Yes and no.

I agree that the major requirements of the job could be successfully completed by either an officer or an NCO.

But much of the time, it would be done differently.

Kinda like a flight sergeant and a flight commander at encampment.  Ostensibly both have pretty much the same job (supervising the cadets in the flight), but they go about it in different styles.

QuoteYou were emphasizing that there is some sort of special NCO leadership style.

Well, to be fair, it isn't just me.  It is the hundreds of  millions of current and former servicemembers since Roman times,  But go on . . .
QuoteIf they are performing the exact same job as a CAP officer would normally do, how is this special leadership style going to manifest itself?  How is a CAP NCO going to do the maintenance officer job differently than a CAP Captain so that these NCO leadership skills show themselves?

It is going to manifest itself in the way the maintence NCO relates to each of the other members of the unit and the maintenance professionals above her at higher.

Obviously the wrench doesn't care if it gets spun by a airman, staff sergeant, or a general. 

I think you should drop by and watch some Air Force maintainers as they work.  Feel free to suggest to them that they don't need NCOs (or alternately that they don't need officers) since everyone can pretty much do everyone else's job.

Tell us what they say.

QuoteNow, if we want to limit the role of CAP NCOs to serving in cadet and composite squadrons where their primary duty is to advise cadet NCOs, that would at least give them some explicit reason for being in existence.

Uncanny.  It's like you have actually been reading my posts.  We agree that there is a valid, useful role for senior NCOs in the CP.

QuoteIts just unnecessary since that same person could do the exact same thing as a CAP officer.

Oops.  I take it back. 

Officers act and lead as officers.  NCOs act and lead like NCOs.

It is difficult or impossible for officers to act and lead like NCOs.

Cadet NCOs would benefit from an NCO role model or two to observe and watch.


(But we have a currently successful program essentially NCO-free, so the world won't end if we don't get more NCOs.  But it would be a better world if we did.)
QED


Now let's go eat some BBQ and celebrate the Glorious Fourth!