Are CAP Senior NCO ranks coming back?

[RiverAux]

1.Former Commissioned Officers and NCOs

Why do these deserve a CAP rank for something they probably did 30 years ago that has almost no bearing on CAP duties or skills while someone that has been in CAP for 15 years is relegated to NCO rank? 

[Eclipse]

I gotta go with River on this - talk about creating animosity.

You have a bunch of (recently) former cadets wearing brass while adults walking in the door who are otherwise leaders in their corporate fields have a single stripe?

Hire JJ ABrahms and reboot the entire program, including a way to re-certify the entire existing cadre within a reasonable amount of time, and you'll get my attention, otherwise, anything that builds an artificial lower tier "just because" fails before the vote.

Bear in mind, also, that the vast majority of CAP leaders who would make the decisions to implement such a program are Major's and higher with a decade in and little interest in starting as an Airman just to pacify someone's idea that NCO's are "better". 

So...

Do you grandfather these leaders and make them orphan officers, or cut the top end off of your program by hacking off the very people who are doing all the work today?

[Nolan Teel]

1.Former Commissioned Officers and NCOs

Why do these deserve a CAP rank for something they probably did 30 years ago that has almost no bearing on CAP duties or skills while someone that has been in CAP for 15 years is relegated to NCO rank?

Its hard to draw the line in the sand on this... but if you read the full post you will note that I said this would apply to only new members not those already serving as CAP Officers...  So.. those that have been serving for 15 years would by no means be relegated to the NCO Tier...

[Nolan Teel]

We could just get rid of rank all together and the only time we fall under a formal chain of command would be on a mission with the ICS System and in the unit where we have the Squadron Commander... but those would be titles...

[Ned]

Heres an Idea... let me know what you think of this...

The only CAP members who wear Officer rank would meet the following criteria, this would apply to new members and not those allready wearing the rank...

1.Former Commissioned Officers and NCOs
2. Former Cadets, Mitchell or higher
3. Members who hold skills we need.  Pilots, Nurses, Doctors, Financial people

All other members would fall into the NCO Tiers...

Provide an avenue for promotion and at a point allow those who have demonstrated the skills for an officer be promoted to one.

I think this would be fine for many members who join because their kids did or hey I just want to help out and volunteer.

Feedback?  This isn't a perfect plan but just something that was in my mind.

As always with these kinds of things, it is best to start with a good definition of the "problem" you are trying to address with this solution.

And then show us how your proposal helps solve the problem as defined.

So, do you have a concise problem statement on the officer issue?

[Eclipse]

We could just get rid of rank all together and the only time we fall under a formal chain of command would be on a mission with the ICS System and in the unit where we have the Squadron Commander... but those would be titles...

That's all we have today.

Grade confers no authority whatsoever in CAP, up to and including the National Commander.  All authority is based on duty posting.

In fact, our system today is somewhat akin to having Group and Unit Commanders really exercising an NCO-type authority, since the nearest thing we have to a "commission" is the corporate officers, and the subordinate commanders are actually acting through the Wing commander's corporate-appointed  command authority, just as NCO's take charge of their elements through the command authority of the commissioned officers appointed above them.

[Short Field]

Its hard to draw the line in the sand on this...

Most people agitating for change forget the 1st cardinal rule:   If it ain't broke, don't fix it.   

[ZigZag911]

I can see some benefits in Ned's view; back when we had USAF LNCO's at wing level, the good ones had a profound impact on seniors and cadets -- sometimes more than the LO's.

I'm not really worried about an experienced NCO being able to 'manage' a new officer/former cadet....they've been handling 'butterbars' for generations!

Finally, if we want an NCO in a command slot, and the individual is amenable, then promote the person to 1 Lt or Captain!

Personally, I like Nolan Teel's ideas, too, but I'm afraid that ship sailed 20-30 years ago...at this point it would be like trying to put the genie back in the bottle.

[Eclipse]

I can see some benefits in Ned's view; back when we had USAF LNCO's at wing level, the good ones had a profound impact on seniors and cadets -- sometimes more than the LO's.

I'd really like some hard examples of how the staffer's grade made a difference in their impact.  A good leader and staffer is just that, regardless of grade, and being an LNCO doesn't make you any more (or less) "not in the chain" than the State Directors are today (which is the real problem).

The duties are identical, and my experience does not echo the above.

[lordmonar]

As Ned and Short Field have said.....

What exactly is the "problem"?

There is none....except that those few individuals who wear NCO ranks cannot progress, fall outside the normal "idea" make up of CAP.  They throw sand into the already gunky machinery which is our rank system.

It is already bad enough that we have Squadrons commanded by 1st Lt's who have Lt Cols and Cols "under them".

The regs allow for a CAP NCOs to hold command....do we have a wing/regional/national commander who wears SSgt stripes?

Now talk about confusing.

The only reason we have CAP NCO ranks is to appease the few people who "don't want to be officers".

Any program that brings back NCO's with out also completely revamping our CAP rank structure is just eye wash to give this small hand full of individuals more prestige....with out really addressing the issue that there is no "need" for them in the first place.

[Eclipse]

^ Yep.  All the way.

[Lt Oliv]

As Ned and Short Field have said.....

What exactly is the "problem"?

There is none....except that those few individuals who wear NCO ranks cannot progress, fall outside the normal "idea" make up of CAP.  They throw sand into the already gunky machinery which is our rank system.

It is already bad enough that we have Squadrons commanded by 1st Lt's who have Lt Cols and Cols "under them".

The regs allow for a CAP NCOs to hold command....do we have a wing/regional/national commander who wears SSgt stripes?

Now talk about confusing.

The only reason we have CAP NCO ranks is to appease the few people who "don't want to be officers".

Any program that brings back NCO's with out also completely revamping our CAP rank structure is just eye wash to give this small hand full of individuals more prestige....with out really addressing the issue that there is no "need" for them in the first place.

Seconded!

Let me add, that those of you who think that all of you who think that new members should start out as NCOs and the progress up toward commissioned ranks are just wrong.

I was a Petty Officer in the U.S. Navy. Not every enlisted person desired to become an Officer. Once you make E-9, it is not necessarily your desire to start out at the bottom by becoming an O-1.

If you have a former NCO who wants to wear stripes instead of bars, I say power to them.

If you want to treat NCO grades as a "stepping stone" then your only military experience is probably from watching Star Trek and trying to piece it together from there.

I am personally offended as a Petty Officer (a Navy NCO) that you would even suggest it. What you are suggesting is incredibly disrespectful to those who are proud to have been enlisted.

If it isn't broken, don't fix it. And if you don't know what you are talking about, keep your mouth shut.

[SarDragon]

+1

[arajca]

The only reason CAP has NCO grades at this time is stroke the egos of some military NCOs (not all military NCOs who join CAP choose to become CAP NCOs). The main justification that I have seen for expanding it is the fallacious argument that wearing stripes makes one a better role model for cadets than wearing bars/leafs/eagles/stars. Never mind that in the military, being an NCO is an end unto itself, whereas in the CAP cadet program, it is only a stepping stone to officership.

[Lt Oliv]

The only reason CAP has NCO grades at this time is stroke the egos of some military NCOs (not all military NCOs who join CAP choose to become CAP NCOs). The main justification that I have seen for expanding it is the fallacious argument that wearing stripes makes one a better role model for cadets than wearing bars/leafs/eagles/stars. Never mind that in the military, being an NCO is an end unto itself, whereas in the CAP cadet program, it is only a stepping stone to officership.

Yeah, it's that last part that I find offensive, to be honest.

It is what fuels the notion that there are two roles in the RM, Commissioned Officers and those who wish they were Commissioned Officers.

I'm not saying stripes are better than bars. But I am saying that bars are not better than stripes.

[Eclipse]

^ To your point as well - enlistedmen don't "start as NCO's", either, and many never attain that status.  CAP members would have to
join as Airmen basics and click three spots just to get to E-3.

At one time there was an issue in conferring advanced CAP officer grade to NCO's who joined, that was fixed a number of years ago fairly well.

As you say, those who are pushing for enlisted grades without a full program reboot don't understand what it means to be an NCO.

[arajca]

The only reason CAP has NCO grades at this time is stroke the egos of some military NCOs (not all military NCOs who join CAP choose to become CAP NCOs). The main justification that I have seen for expanding it is the fallacious argument that wearing stripes makes one a better role model for cadets than wearing bars/leafs/eagles/stars. Never mind that in the military, being an NCO is an end unto itself, whereas in the CAP cadet program, it is only a stepping stone to officership.

Yeah, it's that last part that I find offensive, to be honest.

It is what fuels the notion that there are two roles in the RM, Commissioned Officers and those who wish they were Commissioned Officers.

I'm not saying stripes are better than bars. But I am saying that bars are not better than stripes.

What, you don't agree that the CAP cadet program starts at C/AmB progresses through the Airman grades, through the NCO grades, through the officer grades, finishing at C/Col? That C/CMSgt hasn't completed half the program? That, unlike the military, C/ncos are expected - no, REQUIRED - to become officers?

[Lt Oliv]

The only reason CAP has NCO grades at this time is stroke the egos of some military NCOs (not all military NCOs who join CAP choose to become CAP NCOs). The main justification that I have seen for expanding it is the fallacious argument that wearing stripes makes one a better role model for cadets than wearing bars/leafs/eagles/stars. Never mind that in the military, being an NCO is an end unto itself, whereas in the CAP cadet program, it is only a stepping stone to officership.

Yeah, it's that last part that I find offensive, to be honest.

It is what fuels the notion that there are two roles in the RM, Commissioned Officers and those who wish they were Commissioned Officers.

I'm not saying stripes are better than bars. But I am saying that bars are not better than stripes.

What, you don't agree that the CAP cadet program starts at C/AmB progresses through the Airman grades, through the NCO grades, through the officer grades, finishing at C/Col? That C/CMSgt hasn't completed half the program? That, unlike the military, C/ncos are expected - no, REQUIRED - to become officers?

No, I don't like that. Because it is not a realistic reflection of the military. There is nothing wrong with being enlisted. It is this sort of programming that creates the mentality that an O-1 is "better" than an E-9. Especially since these days, the most common difference between officers and enlisted (college degrees) has been lessened greatly.

In the USN these days, an Associates is expected to make E-7, Bachelors for E-8 and a Masters is becoming increasingly commonplace to make E-9. And hardly any of those folks move on to become Ensigns (O-1)

[arajca]

Well, unfortunately, that is the program.

Interesting, though, that being a C/CMSgt in CAP gets you nothing if you enlist in the military, but being a C/2d Lt does get you something. There must be a reason that the military values cadet officers over cadet ncos.

[Eclipse]

The Mitchell award is a milestone and shows extra effort and participation.

It is the first promotion that requires a cadet leave the squadron (i.e. encampment), besides, you have to draw the line somewhere.