Thoughts on a Commissioned Officer Corp?

[tdepp]

Do I believe that CAP needs more oversight and control from the Air Force?  You Bet!  For starters we need the AF to write our regulations, manuals and directives like they did until 1990.  Second we need access to the GSA fleet of vehicles so we can carry out missions.  It would be nice to go sign a van out from the GSA lot to take Cadets to Encampment each year.  We could also benefit from on-line AAFES access and the permission to buy anything at an exchange.  I think CAP has earned that right.

I think all of those things would be a lot more beneficial to CAP in the long run than actually saying "hey, I'm a commissioned officer."

However, I think there are those throughout CAP with such a "corporate" mindset that they aren't going to want the AF to resume the role it had pre-1990.

I also doubt we'll ever get full BX privileges.

I would say that a requirement for Wing, Region and National Leadership positions would be a Military Commission or (for those that have not served in a Uniform Service) the attainment of the Air Command and Staff College completion certificate.  I would make ACSC a requirement and phase it in for the future leaders of CAP by 2020.

Would that also include a commission in a State Defence Force, since those are not Federally recognised?

The ACSC should be a must for anyone putting on Colonel's eagles and above.

Um, we're the CIVIL Air Patrol? I understand the need for education about our mommy/daddy the USAF but while we have missions that assist the USAF, we're not the USAF, only their auxiliary.  If you are the right age, health, etc., then there is the option for you to join the ANG or USAF.  We're not going to be dropping bombs on the Taliban any time soon.

[vmstan]

All this time spent arguing about something that will never happen. Shouldn't we get back to complaining about something more productive, like the variation of gray pants? 

[ZigZag911]

Some thoughts:

1) US 'warrant' officers actually are granted presidential commissions on reaching a certain point in their grade structure, generally CW2 (first grade for Navy, second for Army & USMC)...in theory, at least, we'd still be an "all officer" force

2) USAF does not use warrant grades, although they are still legally possible...to my mind, this makes them ideal for CAP as a distinguishing element, but USAF has not been warm to the notion

3) USAF NCO corps is less than enthused about CAP members wearing stripes, which is why NCO grades were eliminated from CAP originally.

[heliodoc]

Commissioned Officer Corps in CAP??

IT would require "A LOT" more than just on line testing and a few visits to NSC every so often!!!

Try some ongoing leadership programs FAAAAAR in excess of the current SLS. CLC, UCC 2day course to really bolster a CAP Commissioned Officer Program.

Otherwise, do not make a CAP sham of already established core curricula and syllabus that means more.

IF CAP ever gets serious about this....ever..... then contact the military on how to do it...do not start from CAP "scratch."

[Major Carrales]

Commissioned Officer Corps in CAP??

IT would require "A LOT" more than just on line testing and a few visits to NSC every so often!!!

Try some ongoing leadership programs FAAAAAR in excess of the current SLS. CLC, UCC 2day course to really bolster a CAP Commissioned Officer Program.

Otherwise, do not make a CAP sham of already established core curricula and syllabus that means more.

IF CAP ever gets serious about this....ever..... then contact the military on how to do it...do not start from CAP "scratch."

I was waiting...and hoping...you would comment on this.  I agree.  Our current structure is sufficient for what we do and are able to do as "citizen airmen."  We have jobs...that pay...that require attention.  CAP is our duty and community service element, like the militiamen and minutemen of Colonial Times.

If I needed a commission to accomplish my mission, I would seek one out via the Armed Forces.  To maintain a commission in good judgement and integrity, I would alter my life to be of service to the Military instead of an Auxiliary.  Thus, having a comission would mean being a member of the US Armed Forces in my estimation and I would no longer be an auxiliarist.

Contray to your, Helidoc, comments on other matters en re what can best be described as "uniform fetishism" in CAP, I feel that the status quo is fine.  We of CAP accomplish a great deal with limited resources and, many times, the force of WILL alone to make things happen in all elements of CAP.

The Rank structure and unifroms are an ancillary issue, necessary for tradition and culture, but ancillary none-the-less. The well written proposals for new uniforms, new rank structures and the like are distracting at best.  Let us more concern ourselves with accompishing the mission objectives and limit our energies on uniforms and rank to the correct wear as mandated by policy.

[RiverAux]

Although I've already said that this proposal doesn't make any sense to me, I'm also not seeing the sense in some of the arguments being made against it either.  Some have said you have to be paid to get a Commission...says who?  Some have said that there are steep educational requirements that have to be met...says who? 

Assuming someone thought giving Commissions, which seem meaningless to me anyway, to CAP officers was a good idea, I'm sure that something could be worked out to recognize the different needs of CAP vs military officers, PHS, etc. 

[Major Carrales]

Although I've already said that this proposal doesn't make any sense to me, I'm also not seeing the sense in some of the arguments being made against it either.  Some have said you have to be paid to get a Commission...says who?  Some have said that there are steep educational requirements that have to be met...says who? 

Assuming someone thought giving Commissions, which seem meaningless to me anyway, to CAP officers was a good idea, I'm sure that something could be worked out to recognize the different needs of CAP vs military officers, PHS, etc.

Really?!  Why do we need them?  It is obvious, however, that holding a "Federal Commission" for CAP Officers would require more than just "a piece of paper."  To avoid ridicule, which has no standing now since we are volunteers operating in an "internal" rank structure, will rise to a fever pitch if and when a "Federal Commission" is extended to CAP.

We would have to be "more military" than the military and have way more stringent training inorder to avoid ridicule.  It would make more sense to join the USAF Reserve than be in CAP.  Plus, no matter what, there are still going to be those that will ridicule us no matter what.

I've read forums in the past knocking the PHS and NOAA for "not really being the military" or needing to wear uniforms of Naval design. 

The whole "let's get a commission" issue seems, to me at least, as a grasp at some sort of legitamacy.  Which we already have as an organization "as we exist now."  We are the USAF Auxiliary, congressionally charters, with over 60 years of service in peace and war.  We are community level volunteers (for the most part) that operate our squadrons locally.

We provide a proven cadet element...Emergency Servies in the face of Disasters as large as hurricanes and as small as non-distress ELTS.  And we do it for free in a well established structure hand in hand with the USAF.

Why is that so hard for people to understand.  Be more proud of what you are than ashamed of what you are not.

[RiverAux]

Really?!  Why do we need them?  It is obvious, however, that holding a "Federal Commission" for CAP Officers would require more than just "a piece of paper."  To avoid ridicule, which has no standing now since we are volunteers operating in an "internal" rank structure, will rise to a fever pitch if and when a "Federal Commission" is extended to CAP.

That is an opinion that you are stating as fact. 

A Commission is just a piece of paper and would have absolutely no more impact on anyone in the world than my CAP ID card does.

Does anyone think military officers give any credit towards NOAA or PHS people?  Do you think they view those Commissioned officers as real officers?  I very much doubt it. 

That being the case ,I don't see where  any particular educational or salary requirements would legitimize those "Commissions" in any form or fashion no matter what the qualifications were. 

I agree with your conclusion Sparky, just think your reasoning is off. 

[wuzafuzz]

Want a commission as a CAP member?  Viola!  By the power vested in me by my imagination, you are hereby commissioned as a CAP officer.   

Since most of us have little to no authority as CAP members the idea of a "commission" seems pointless.  What little authority we need to carry out our tasks is granted by virtue of our CAP membership, qualifications, or delegation from those in authority over us.  That's all we need as CAP members, at least as CAP currently exists. 

This whole business of grade without associated authority, even within our own organization, is just silly.  Professional Development could be recognized in a variety of other ways.  But that's fodder for another thread.

[Major Carrales]

That is an opinion that you are stating as fact. 

I would better call it an informed speculation based on established trends.  For CAP to hold Federal Commissions, they would be a called upon, by almost everyone, to "add teeth" to the commissions.  Think of it this way based on precedent...Why have we no NCO corps autonmous to CAP?  Answer, because the USAF NCOs have, or are preceived to have, some problem with it.

Ideally, a "man off the street" should start as an airman and progress through NCO grades with Officers holding command or some other function.  When NCOs in CAP are discussed, if non-prior service is even considered, the amount of training to become an NCOs is heeped up to a point beyond even what a CAP Wing Commander should have to do.
Now, my old CAPTALK FRIEND, tell me that is not so.

[vmstan]

The whole "let's get a commission" issue seems, to me at least, as a grasp at some sort of legitamacy.  Which we already have as an organization "as we exist now."  We are the USAF Auxiliary, congressionally charters, with over 60 years of service in peace and war.  We are community level volunteers (for the most part) that operate our squadrons locally.

We provide a proven cadet element...Emergency Servies in the face of Disasters as large as hurricanes and as small as non-distress ELTS.  And we do it for free in a well established structure hand in hand with the USAF.

Why is that so hard for people to understand.  Be more proud of what you are than ashamed of what you are not.

X2

[RiverAux]

That is an opinion that you are stating as fact. 

I would better call it an informed speculation based on established trends.  For CAP to hold Federal Commissions, they would be a called upon, by almost everyone, to "add teeth" to the commissions.  Think of it this way based on precedent...Why have we no NCO corps autonmous to CAP?  Answer, because the USAF NCOs have, or are preceived to have, some problem with it.

Ideally, a "man off the street" should start as an airman and progress through NCO grades with Officers holding command or some other function.  When NCOs in CAP are discussed, if non-prior service is even considered, the amount of training to become an NCOs is heeped up to a point beyond even what a CAP Wing Commander should have to do.
Now, my old CAPTALK FRIEND, tell me that is not so.

It all depends on what the deal is.  If the commission mean that CAP officers were now considered "real" officers with the potential to be given authority over members of the military, sure there would be heaps of stuff that would be expected of them before getting that piece of paper.  But, that wasn't what was being proposed here. 

[davidsinn]

That is an opinion that you are stating as fact. 

I would better call it an informed speculation based on established trends.  For CAP to hold Federal Commissions, they would be a called upon, by almost everyone, to "add teeth" to the commissions.  Think of it this way based on precedent...Why have we no NCO corps autonmous to CAP?  Answer, because the USAF NCOs have, or are preceived to have, some problem with it.

Ideally, a "man off the street" should start as an airman and progress through NCO grades with Officers holding command or some other function.  When NCOs in CAP are discussed, if non-prior service is even considered, the amount of training to become an NCOs is heeped up to a point beyond even what a CAP Wing Commander should have to do.
Now, my old CAPTALK FRIEND, tell me that is not so.

It all depends on what the deal is.  If the commission mean that CAP officers were now considered "real" officers with the potential to be given authority over members of the military, sure there would be heaps of stuff that would be expected of them before getting that piece of paper.  But, that wasn't what was being proposed here.

But that's exactly what a commission is. If you don't gain any authority or extra responsibility then nothing has changed.

[lordmonar]

This is just a rehash of the "we don't get no respect" and "Let's require degree" threads.

Bottom line......we will never get respect.

Aint going to happen.

AD types don't respect Reservists, Reservists don't respect NG types.  AD USAF Pilots don't respect non-pilots.  Fighter Jocks don't respect AWAC guys.  They don't care about Commissions.  They care about what you DO and how you do it.

If CAP went around and required 4 year degrees, A long OCS process, regular USAF PME, UCMJ authority.....we would still be the bastard step children.

[Short Field]

And have a officer corps of about 20 members who were not commissioned as a member of the RM.

[tdepp]

  Be more proud of what you are than ashamed of what you are not.

Very Zen, grasshopper!  And I completely agree. 

Here in SD, we've been flying photo missions for our flooding every single day this week for the State.  It is a great service at a great price that helps protect life and property.  It is being done by dedicated volunteers.  It makes me proud of my fellow Wing members and my organization.  That is the sort of thing we should be concerned about--our important missions--not whether we are "real" officers or what color gray our corporate pants should be.   

And I'll be up in the air tomorrow taking my turn to help out.  Gladly and proudly, I might add.  Not for pay, not for glory, but to help my fellow Dakotans in a time of need.  And I know most of you do what you do for the same reasons.

[nesagsar]

Does anyone think military officers give any credit towards NOAA or PHS people?  Do you think they view those Commissioned officers as real officers?  I very much doubt it. 

This is very unfair to USPHS and NOAA officers. Personally I know several officers of he PHS, I have even considered joining the PHS, and the level of training involved is more extensive than most people realize. Those officers earned their grade and there is a very good reason that they have authority over military personnel. I know one PHS officer who is a registered flight surgeon at an Army unit, no one flys without his clearance. That same officer has been a past instructor at NESA and he currently works at HHS/SOC.

Truthfully I see no reason that CAP officers would have need for a federal commission. I would suggest that a compromise would be state issued credentials to ES qualified members. In general a state level emergency manager has no idea what a 101 card is and will not trust it as a valid credential, this leads to a lower ops-tempo for CAP responders. a state credential would prove to non CAP personnel that we have the training required to participate alongside IMERT, DMAT, or SWMD teams, etc...

[RiverAux]

This is very unfair to USPHS and NOAA officers.

You missed the point of my statement entirely --- despite their accomplishments, the military is not going to look on these folks as real officers, just like they would never look on CAP officers as real officers no matter what sort of educational and other requirements were instituted along with a commission for CAP officers.

As far as I know, most states don't have any "credential" system for CAP to participate in so that is not a compromise that can be made.  There has supposedly been efforts towards a national system but I don't think it has gotten very far, but if it did I assume CAP would participate. 

[tsrup]

Actually there are methods in place that can put a 2nd Lt. in the air force over a commander in the PHS or NOAA, it has to deal with restricted, and unrestricted line officers.  A restricted line officer is like your direct commission folks, Chaplains, Doctors, the PHS etc..  URL officers are your traditional military officers.

following is an example:  Say you have a boat, and in the boat is a Navy LT. JG  and a Chaplain Captain (O-6) and a Doctor Lt. Commander (O-4).  Who is in charge of the boat?  Why the Navy Lt. (O-2).

So be careful when you say that NOAA and PHS officers have authority over RM officers.  You start to get into shades of grey.

Not to mention there is no reason for us to have any authority over the military.  We are the CIVIL Air Patrol after all.
     

[tdepp]

Not to mention there is no reason for us to have any authority over the military.  We are the CIVIL Air Patrol after all.
   

My young Dakota friend makes a lot of sense.  Let me summarize the Rupster's point more colorfully:

Cart, meet horse.  Horse, Cart.  Cart, you do not go before the horse. 

We are the USAF's Auxiliary.  As in functioning in a subsidiary capacity or providing help.  We exist to serve them.  Plus, we are volunteers.  Trained, dedicated, and professional volunteers, but volunteers who are not members of the military (though some may also be in the military while also CAP members.) 

Why is this so hard for some to understand?  If you want the Full Monty militarily speaking, volunteer for the armed services, get an Academy appointment, go through your college's ROTC program, or join the NG or ANG .

It's like Cartman from South Park.  Why are some so worried that no one will RESPECT MY AUTHORITY!?