Thoughts on a Commissioned Officer Corp?

[Eclipse]

Another can of worms that this opens would be the perception of the RM - would they be required to salute higher-ranking CAP Warrant/Commissioned officers?  I can see THAT argument turning ugly FAST.

No.  The current policy would remain in place, where they are not required to salute, but can do so voluntarily.

Not much point in a commission not even recognized by other services.

[Major Carrales]

We could even consider Mafia rank titles:

Capo di tutti capi (Boss of all bosses)
Capo bastone (underboss)
Consigliere (counselor)
Caporegime (captain)
Sgarrista (soldier - 'made man')
Picciotto (associate)

Have we got an offer you can't refuse!

From Coastal Patrols to Cosa Nostra in 60 some years...gives new meaning to "Flighsuit MAFIA."  Chuck...you're a regular riot!!! 

[a2capt]

* a2capt rings the bell for the moderator.

[OldSalt]

On many practical levels, it would not work.

I have semi-experience with this in that several years ago I applied for the NOAA Corps and wasn't accepted on medical grounds.  They have very stringent standards.

First of all, NOAA officers are truly commissioned officers in a uniformed service of the United States.  They are paid at Armed Forces officer rates, are subject to the UCMJ, and rate a salute from all junior ranked personnel (including us).  If you are a CAP Captain and you pass a NOAA Lieutenant Commander, you are obligated to salute and render a greeting.

They have to attend a four-month Academy at the Merchant Marine Academy in Kings Point, New York.  Following that, they spend three years sea duty aboard a NOAA vessel.

They get all the retirement benefits that an officer in the Army, Air Force, Navy, Marine Corps, Coast Guard and U.S. Public Health service does.

Not to disparage us, because we do what we do, and try to do it well, but it's light-years away from a young NOAA Ensign shivering his/her butt off pulling watch duty in the Arctic.

If I were to do any "shake-and-bake" of the CAP ranks (which would remain all-volunteer), I would re-introduce a true enlisted/NCO tier and Warrant Officers.

E-1 Airman Basic
E-2 Airman
E-3 Airman First Class
E-4 Senior Airman
E-5 Sergeant
E-6 Staff Sergeant
E-7 Flight Sergeant (Technical Sergeants aren't all "technical")
E-8 Master Sergeant

All insignia would be blue embroidered on grey background, USAF pattern.  This rank tier would be for 18-year-olds and up that are high school graduates with no prior service.  They would be specialists in one speciality track.

WO-1 Warrant Officer 1
CWO-2 Chief Warrant Officer 2
CWO-3 Chief Warrant Officer 3
CWO-4 Chief Warrant Officer 4
CWO-5 Chief Warrant Officer 5

Standard USAF warrant officer insignia (still authorised, but not in use), like CAP used to have.
For 21+ with no prior service and at least an associate's degree.  Cadets achieving Spaatz at 18 come in at CWO-2.

O-1 Second Lieutenant
O-2 First Lieutenant
O-3 Captain
O-4 Major
O-5 Lieutenant Colonel
O-6 Colonel (reserved for Wing Commanders and National staff officers)
O-7 Brigadier General (reserved for Region Commanders and Deputy National CC)
O-8 Major General (National Commander)

Direct commissions available for the following:
Pilots (FAA and/or military certified)
Lawyers, Attorneys, Barristers and Solicitors
Doctors (MD, DO)
Physician Assistants
Nurse Practitioners
Dentists (DDS)
Nurses (RN)
Chaplains
Mental Health clinicians with at least an M.S.W.

Prior service military with at least E-5 can apply for the officer ranks, maximum of First Lieutenant.  Former military officers (active, reserve, Guard, State Defence Forces) would come in at their last-held rank.

OK, it's not perfect, and it wouldn't happen, but it's just a thought.

We would also be much less top-heavy with officers.

This is by far the most useful serious post in reply (Don't get me wrong - I like humor and a good laugh as much as the next guy).

Good analysis CyBorg. This type of suggestion does make some sense in my mind and I think might give us more credence with our AF teammates. In light of this and having experience with lots of Warrant Officers from my time in the Army Air Cav (great visual by the way to the Stetson wearing Cobra jockeys  ) this re-org really does make sense.

Except for Pilots and actual Command Staff, the rest of our whole officer corps is technician based and fits better into the warrant officer position than the "Commissioned" positions.

This really wouldn't upset the boat too much since we currently authorize enlisted, flight officer (i.e. warrant officer), and commissioned-style ranks.

Any further thoughts on developing this avenue of thought?

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Thank you, except it'll never happen...I think we're too enamoured of our bars, leaves, etc. for that, though I'd have no problem trading in my Captain's bars for Warrant bars and squares.

Also, I should have replaced the wording "direct commission" with "direct appointment," for medics, lawyers, etc., since we are not commissioned.

[OldSalt]

I posted up a chart in the photo gallery of a very simplistic rank structure based on the warrant officer idea. I even included the corresponding official AF warrant officer rank graphics. Have to wait for the moderator to approve it before it will show.

**update - I think it's working now here: http://captalk.net/index.php?action=mgallery;sa=item;id=150

Another thought in our favor - there are currently no AF Warrant Officers so we would never be confused with regular AF officers if we went this route. This could be a CAP / AF Aux only rank.

[Major Carrales]

Let's just keep it like it is.

[OldSalt]

Let's just keep it like it is.

"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Anyone else see the irony here 

[Major Carrales]

Let's just keep it like it is.

"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Anyone else see the irony here 

What you are proposing has no operational affect to our missions nor any true movement other than to reorganize for no other, or pressing, reasons but rather just to do it.  You do not address how you will transition from the status quo to this new system or why it needs to happen.

The power to change CAP does not imply making changes on such items that, in the grand scope of things, will produce little impact other than making people waste money on new doo-dads for their uniform.  The power to change CAP is most done at the local levels, killing "flying clubs" and replacing them with operational CAP units, developing resources and logistics for your squadron and groups so these Units can put into effect Wing, Region and National Mission.

It mean you buil dnew units where none exist, help cadets better themselves and promote aerospace education to whomever you can.

Redesigning uniforms, ranks structures for senior or new logos is not the sort of change needed, in fact, it is a distraction.

The only irony I detect here is that this topic keeps coming up ad infinitum, dies...and then gets brought up yet again.

As for commissions, how do you intend to get Congress to go along with that?  If CAP was a paid independent UNIFORMED service of the US government that would be another matter.  However, there is no identified need that would justify such actions.  CAP is useful and viable because it is volunteer in every sense of the word, once it is not...its will be rolled away into som other group and dissolved.

Let's just leave it the way it is.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Major Carrales: My "restructuring" is a flight of fancy, based on past CAP structure (I've seen pictures), nothing more.

I have no illusions that it would be adopted.

As well, I suppose I wasn't clear enough in stating that actual "commissions" are not in the picture, never have been, never will be.

I do have problems with us being nearly all "officers," especially since it wasn't always that way.  I do think it can be an operational hindrance when we interact with the actual military.

Eclipse stated that there would be no point in having commissions not recognised by another service...I agree to a point, except that there is already precedent.  State Defence Force officers hold commissions and warrants issued by their state.  They are not Federally recognised (unlike dual-status ANG/ARNG commissions/warrants) and carry no weight outside of their state, and they have no command authority over Federal forces, though they are usually saluted out of courtesy by active-duty troops.

I agree with you about the focus on "killing the flying clubs," having belonged to one of those myself.

[OldSalt]

Let's just keep it like it is.

"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Anyone else see the irony here 

What you are proposing has no operational affect to our missions nor any true movement other than to reorganize for no other, or pressing, reasons but rather just to do it.  You do not address how you will transition from the status quo to this new system or why it needs to happen.

The power to change CAP does not imply making changes on such items that, in the grand scope of things, will produce little impact other than making people waste money on new doo=dad for their uniform.  The power to change CAP is most done at the local levels, killing "flying clubs" and replacing them with operational CAP units, developing resources and logistics for your squadron and groups so these Units can put into effect Wing, Region and National Mission.

It mean you buil dnew units where none exist, help cadets better themselves and promote aerospace education to whomever you can.

Redesigning uniforms, ranks structures for senior or new logos is not the sort of change needed, in fact, it is a distraction.

The only irony I detect here is that this topic keeps coming up ad infinitum, dies...and then gets brought up yet again.

As for commissions, how do you intend to get Congress to go along with that?  If CAP was a paid independent UNIFORMED service of the US government that would be another matter.  However, there is no identified need that would justify such actions.  CAP is useful and viable because it is volunteer in every sense of the word, once it is not...its will be rolled away into som other group and dissolved.

Let's just leave it the way it is.

I understand and agree with most of what you are saying here, but I just couldn't resist the jab.

However, and there is always a "however" when it comes to postulating ideas for improvement, I have been converted by Cyborg's earlier posting and I now believe that the Warrant Officer rank structure I posted up in the gallery makes a lot more sense operationally and organizationally to how we operate in coopoeration with our AF teammates than my initial idea of Commissioning.

The bottom line is clarification of rank vs. duties. In CAP currently, the only ranks that matter in terms of command structure are Colonel and above. The majority of our operational duty assignments and in fact our whole professional development program is based on skills training. Historically within the military Warrant Officer ranks more accurately reflect a highly trained technician with management assigned duties than does the commissioned-style ranks. This also provides greater respect for our officer corps as a whole and makes our rank structure actually more meaningful, especially in a volunteer organization.

For instance, in CAP I don't want to command troops or participate in regional politics - I just want to fly the planes and do missions. That's great, CAP has a rank for you - it's called Flight Officer. Oh, you want to also be the master Commo Officer, well then, we have the rank for you - Warrant Officer. What, you only want to show up occassionally and just be an extra hand - that's great too and we have a rank for you - it's called Staff Sergeant. YOu know what though, on second thought, my squadron commander is stepping down and I think I might like that role, voila - we have the command rank for you too!

Seems like it works just fine, offers all members regardless of intent a rank suitable to their desires and participation levels. It does mean that those members who just can't stand the thought of losing their bars or leaves will have to evaluate whether they want to stay in CAP for the wrong reasons, or adjust and continuing serving for the right reasons. The current rank structure is just missing something - and it discredits our organization for everyone to be a "command officer" even though they are not in command of anything except their own personal development.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Crikey.  I wasn't trying to "convert" anyone.  I have no doubt that if I would submit my "suggestion" through the chain it would end up in the CS file at Maxwell, if it got that far, especially given the current sensitivity about uniforms.

[Major Carrales]

The fundamental flaw in most of is that most people here are equating CAP rank with that of Military rank...and that is folley.  Rank and Grade in CAP is that it is...a reflection of professional development or skills in CAP...nothing more and nothing less.

It is not any sort of "operational hinderance" when working with the military unless people work really hard at making that happen.  Simply put, a CAP Major or CAP Captain is exactly that.  Don't start making parallels where none exist.

When an active duty or reserve officer, NCO or enlisted person see a CAP officer, they should respect CAP for what it is...not for what it is not.  They should see a person preforming CAP duties as prescribed by CAP regulations and policies.  That we have an internal grade structure should not enter into it at all.  No more than the grades and insignias of a volunteer fire department or police force should.

Keep it the way it is.  We have ranks for people who don't want command, there are called 1st and 2d Lt.  Want to be a Captain, take the classes and the test.  Want to be a Major, do the time and extra work.  Complete the program and be a Lt Col.  I still see no actual good out of changing the names and ranks of people to conform to some ideal of what we "are not."

If you really were trying to accomplish your "objective..."

Then the warrant officer stuff is not where you should start.  In fact, if I did support your reasoning I would have to say that everyone without a college degree should start as an Airman and work there way up through the NCO grades...yes, the coveted NCO GRADES...bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha.  All college educated members should be appointed to 2d Lt upon completeion of ECI 13 with the potential to advance to Capt.  Majors would commander Sqadrons, Lt Cols would be Group Commander, Cols the Wings, Brig Generals the Regions, Maj General the National Vice-Commander position and a Lt General the office of National Commander (all of which would retain the grade after the service).

[OldSalt]

The fundamental flaw in most of is that most people here are equating CAP rank with that of Military rank...and that is folley.  Rank and Grade in CAP is that it is...a reflection of professional development or skills in CAP...nothing more and nothing less.

It is not any sort of "operational hinderance" when working with the military unless people work really hard at making that happen.  Simply put, a CAP Major or CAP Captain is exactly that.  Don't start making parallels where none exist.

When an active duty or reserve officer, NCO or enlisted person see a CAP officer, they should respect CAP for what it is...not for what it is not.  They should see a person preforming CAP duties as prescribed by CAP regulations and policies.  That we have an internal grade structure should not enter into it at all.  No more than the grades and insignias of a volunteer fire department or police force should.

I have to respectfully disagree with you here. This would be all well and good if we were not the Air Force Auxiliary and wearing AF-Style uniforms with military commissioned officer-style ranks. We can try all we want to tell people that a tiger is really an elephant, but when they look at the tiger they will see a tiger and react accordingly.

This is especially true in an operational / mission setting where emotions are running higher than normal and the hornets nest has been stirred up. It is especially relevant during those times to ensure that what you are looking at is exactly what IT is. What is wrong with a tiger looking like a tiger? Why must we stop and have to explain to everyone first that a CAP Officer really isn't an officer. It begs the question of, "Then why are you dressed like an officer?"

[Major Carrales]

The fundamental flaw in most of is that most people here are equating CAP rank with that of Military rank...and that is folley.  Rank and Grade in CAP is that it is...a reflection of professional development or skills in CAP...nothing more and nothing less.

It is not any sort of "operational hinderance" when working with the military unless people work really hard at making that happen.  Simply put, a CAP Major or CAP Captain is exactly that.  Don't start making parallels where none exist.

When an active duty or reserve officer, NCO or enlisted person see a CAP officer, they should respect CAP for what it is...not for what it is not.  They should see a person preforming CAP duties as prescribed by CAP regulations and policies.  That we have an internal grade structure should not enter into it at all.  No more than the grades and insignias of a volunteer fire department or police force should.

I have to respectfully disagree with you here. This would be all well and good if we were not the Air Force Auxiliary and wearing AF-Style uniforms with military commissioned officer-style ranks. We can try all we want to tell people that a tiger is really an elephant, but when they look at the tiger they will see a tiger and react accordingly.

This is especially true in an operational / mission setting where emotions are running higher than normal and the hornets nest has been stirred up. It is especially relevant during those times to ensure that what you are looking at is exactly what IT is. What is wrong with a tiger looking like a tiger? Why must we stop and have to explain to everyone first that a CAP Officer really isn't an officer. It begs the question of, "Then why are you dressed like an officer?"

In the 13 years I have been in CAP, I have yet to step on foot on a USAF Facility.  What's more...when we have dealt with USAF personel it was the biggest of non-issues.  When emotions are "running high," like the Hurricane Relief Missions we do down here, the last thing on the Governor, 1st Airforce or FEMAs mind is "is that man a Lt Col or what?"  They are more interested in having the aerial recon photos in Austin, the FEMA personal transported or the materials to 1st Airforce than uniform bickering. 

I am going to present this based on two assuptions, they may be true or not, but the points will be made none-the-less.  You are new to CAP, and likley either a cadet (based on some of your diction) or a person new to CAP from on of the other services.  Additionaly, it is a common folly for cadets to want to twist CAP to their world view or for a new CAP officer from one of the Services to try to apply the institutions/policies/practices of the military into CAP. Simply put, whatever the case, CAP is what it is and operates as it does.  Be more proud of what you are, than ashamed of what you are not.

Oh...and one more thing, we are dressed like CAP Officers, not USAF ones...if it bothers you to any degree to have to educate anyone as to what your status is (which, if done well, grants us allies, and if done poorly makes us untold critics and even enemies)...then you need to switch over to the golf shirt and grey slacks.  I'm proud of my service in CAP...are you?

[Short Field]

^^^ +1  Nicely said.   :clap:

[Spike]

I have to respectfully disagree with you here. This would be all well and good if we were not the Air Force Auxiliary and wearing AF-Style uniforms with military commissioned officer-style ranks. We can try all we want to tell people that a tiger is really an elephant, but when they look at the tiger they will see a tiger and react accordingly.

Ohh Newbie......
As "CAP Officers" we are volunteers.  We can be ordered to do something and just WALK AWAY if we don't like it.  In the Military when an Officer disregards, disobeys, or violates verbal or written orders they will stand in front of a superior and if their answer for their actions is not good enough will at the minimum, be cashiered from the Service.  Look at the history of the American Military.  Failure to follow orders can lead to a summary execution by a superior Officer.

Commissioning Officers specifically for CAP may sounds like an awesome idea.  Can you imagine the years of WORK that will go into implementing a program like that.  Laws and US Code would need changing, and the actual funding for such an undertaking would be enormous.  By the time it finally took effect, you would be too old to receive a CAP Commission.

Do I believe that CAP needs more oversight and control from the Air Force?  You Bet!  For starters we need the AF to write our regulations, manuals and directives like they did until 1990.  Second we need access to the GSA fleet of vehicles so we can carry out missions.  It would be nice to go sign a van out from the GSA lot to take Cadets to Encampment each year.  We could also benefit from on-line AAFES access and the permission to buy anything at an exchange.  I think CAP has earned that right.

We need to solve so many little issues, that HUGE issue like Commissioning CAP Officers will never be undertaken.

If we need Commissioned Officers, then there are more than enough retired and former Officers floating around CAP that we can pull from.

I would say that a requirement for Wing, Region and National Leadership positions would be a Military Commission or (for those that have not served in a Uniform Service) the attainment of the Air Command and Staff College completion certificate.  I would make ACSC a requirement and phase it in for the future leaders of CAP by 2020.  That is more attainable than getting CAP Members Commissions.

     

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Do I believe that CAP needs more oversight and control from the Air Force?  You Bet!  For starters we need the AF to write our regulations, manuals and directives like they did until 1990.  Second we need access to the GSA fleet of vehicles so we can carry out missions.  It would be nice to go sign a van out from the GSA lot to take Cadets to Encampment each year.  We could also benefit from on-line AAFES access and the permission to buy anything at an exchange.  I think CAP has earned that right.

I think all of those things would be a lot more beneficial to CAP in the long run than actually saying "hey, I'm a commissioned officer."

However, I think there are those throughout CAP with such a "corporate" mindset that they aren't going to want the AF to resume the role it had pre-1990.

I also doubt we'll ever get full BX privileges.

I would say that a requirement for Wing, Region and National Leadership positions would be a Military Commission or (for those that have not served in a Uniform Service) the attainment of the Air Command and Staff College completion certificate.  I would make ACSC a requirement and phase it in for the future leaders of CAP by 2020.

Would that also include a commission in a State Defence Force, since those are not Federally recognised?

The ACSC should be a must for anyone putting on Colonel's eagles and above.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

In the 13 years I have been in CAP, I have yet to step on foot on a USAF Facility.

That amazes me, Major.

I attended my first Comms school on an ARB before I ever put on 2nd Lt.

[Major Carrales]

In the 13 years I have been in CAP, I have yet to step on foot on a USAF Facility.

That amazes me, Major.

I attended my first Comms school on an ARB before I ever put on 2nd Lt.

The nearest USAF installation is in San Antonio (250 plus miles away), the closest thing to a USAF installation I have been on is Brooks City Base.  I have never been to Lackland or Randolph on any CAP business.

When we have been on US Navy installations, the "rank/grade" issue has been a non-issue.