CAP Talk

Operations => Safety => Topic started by: BillB on September 23, 2011, 11:53:33 PM

Title: FAA Safety NOTAM
Post by: BillB on September 23, 2011, 11:53:33 PM
Earlier today FAA came out with a NOTAM


QuoteFAA Safety Team | Safer Skies Through Education
Urgent Airmen Notification - Satellite Re-entry
Notice Number: NOTC3252


Until September 26, 2011
U.S. airspace and territories

Specific instructions and restrictions are available from normal NOTAM sites and local air traffic facilities.

*For the latest information, call your local Flight Service Station at 1-800-WX-BRIEF.

So if doing Sacnner training look UP not down
Title: Re: FAA Safety NOTAM
Post by: bosshawk on September 24, 2011, 12:33:53 AM
Having worked in the satellite business for more years than I like to admit, I have a couple of pointed questions for the FAA.

What are the chances of seeing a piece of space junk re-entering at some speed upwards of 18,000 MPH?

If you happen to see one, which part of a milisecond do you have to do anything about it?

If it should happen to hit your airplane, whom do you call?  Outside of God?

Seems to me that this notice is a perfect example of the FAA playing CYA.
Title: Re: FAA Safety NOTAM
Post by: Eclipse on September 24, 2011, 12:40:11 AM
It would make an awesome 78!
Title: Re: FAA Safety NOTAM
Post by: Major Lord on September 24, 2011, 01:07:20 AM
What? A pilot who believes he cannot out-maneuver a supersonic burst of metallic plasma in a 172? ( Maybe our beloved safety officers should create a check list in the event you are instantaneously vaporized from space) I just hope it lands in the ocean where we can see it or on the headquarters of the Amway Corporation.....It could be a heck of a light show in the right circumstances.

Major Lord
Title: Re: FAA Safety NOTAM
Post by: bosshawk on September 24, 2011, 01:22:40 AM
Wait until one of your Safely Officers tries to use this one for a monthly brief.  Might become a contest to see how far a Safety Officer will bounce.
Title: Re: FAA Safety NOTAM
Post by: dbaran on September 24, 2011, 04:23:17 AM
In CA, we'll probably have to do mandatory safety briefings and ORM before every flight to check for falling satellites.  Oh wait ... new Wing commander...maybe we won't do that anymore.
Title: Re: FAA Safety NOTAM
Post by: Spaceman3750 on September 24, 2011, 04:29:33 AM
Don't forget, they've got to hit the ground somewhere. I'm including "falling space debris" in my next ground team ORM.
Title: Re: FAA Safety NOTAM
Post by: Major Lord on September 24, 2011, 04:35:47 AM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on September 24, 2011, 04:29:33 AM
Don't forget, they've got to hit the ground somewhere. I'm including "falling space debris" in my next ground team ORM.

Well, if it made the dinosaurs extinct, just think of what it could do to a ground team! And let us not forget the concomitant dangers of Zombies created by radioactive space debris. You think that machete is on the GT TO&E for cutting firewood?

Major Lord
Title: Re: FAA Safety NOTAM
Post by: Spaceman3750 on September 24, 2011, 04:42:06 AM
Quote from: Major Lord on September 24, 2011, 04:35:47 AM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on September 24, 2011, 04:29:33 AM
Don't forget, they've got to hit the ground somewhere. I'm including "falling space debris" in my next ground team ORM.

Well, if it made the dinosaurs extinct, just think of what it could do to a ground team! And let us not forget the concomitant dangers of Zombies created by radioactive space debris. You think that machete is on the GT TO&E for cutting firewood?

Major Lord

Good morning all, my name is TFO Bagodoughnuts and I will be your GTL. Today's mission number is 11-M-1234 and our mission objective is a missing person. Our sortie will be to search the area in UTM grid 12345678. Weather is cloudy with a chance of zombies. >:D
Title: Re: FAA Safety NOTAM
Post by: JC004 on September 24, 2011, 08:06:18 PM
All done.

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2011-09-24/nasa-research-satellite-enters-earth-off-u-s-west-coast.html
Title: Re: FAA Safety NOTAM
Post by: Ed Bos on October 01, 2011, 10:26:51 PM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on September 24, 2011, 04:29:33 AM
Don't forget, they've got to hit the ground somewhere. I'm including "falling space debris" in my next ground team ORM.
If you put it on an ORM sheet, send it to me and I'll use it for the GTL school.  ;D
Title: Re: FAA Safety NOTAM
Post by: JeffDG on October 01, 2011, 10:51:45 PM
This reminds me of once, back a few years, we were planning a server room move for a company to a new HQ.  This was a pretty big deal, actually...we were talking a couple million an hour for any downtime, and if their main ERP system was lost during the move, well...we were pretty much screwed.

Well, to lighten the mood during one of the risk assessment meetings, I made the mistake of mentioning that the move was happening during the time window that the Mir space station was supposed to come down, and similarly, it was a ballistic object with no maneuvering fuel left...

The risk ended up in the plan, with a mitigation strategy...the two mirror servers of the ERP system had to be put into separate trucks for the move, and the second one couldn't leave until the first had arrived safely at the new office....

For projects, I always categorize risks onto a two axis graph, with one axis being the probability, and one being the impact.  If a risk's impact is in the "catastrophic" impact category, we review it regardless of how low the probability axis sits.
Title: Re: FAA Safety NOTAM
Post by: FlyTiger77 on October 02, 2011, 01:27:33 AM
Quote from: JeffDG on October 01, 2011, 10:51:45 PM
For projects, I always categorize risks onto a two axis graph, with one axis being the probability, and one being the impact.  If a risk's impact is in the "catastrophic" impact category, we review it regardless of how low the probability axis sits.

I would be interested in seeing one of your graphs. If you can, please email me one.

Thanks.
Title: Re: FAA Safety NOTAM
Post by: AirDX on October 02, 2011, 08:49:09 PM
Try this one on for size, in the NOTAMs this morning...  3 one gram objects?

FDC 1/4220 (A2004/11) - PART 1 OF 2 SPECIAL POTENTIAL FOREIGN OBJECTS AND
DEBRIS (FOD)
DUE TO POSSIBILITY OF UP TO THREE 1-GRAM PIECES OF DEBRIS FALLING
WITHIN AN AREA BOUNDED BY THE COORDINATES BELOW.
0500-1000 UTC DLY WEF 1110020500-1110041000 (OCT 1-3 1900-2400 HST
LOCAL)
LAT/LONG
22-10N/159-16W
22-13N/159-19W
22-14N/159-23W
22-14N/159-29W
22-13N/159-31W
22-14N/159-34W
22-11N/159-39W
22-09N/159-44W
22-06N/159-45W
22-04N/159-47W
22-01N/159-48W
22-00N/159-47W
22-10N/159-46W
22-05N/159-38W
22-06N/159-29W
END PART 1 OF 2. WIE UNTIL UFN. CREATED: 30 SEP 21:52 2011


FDC 1/4220 (A2004/11) - PART 2 OF 2 SPECIAL POTENTIAL FOREIGN OBJECTS AND
DEBRIS (FOD)
22-10N/159-18W
22-10N/159-16W
END PART 2 OF 2. WIE UNTIL UFN. CREATED: 30 SEP 21:52 2011


Title: Re: FAA Safety NOTAM
Post by: SarDragon on October 02, 2011, 11:04:13 PM
Well, Ek = (1/2) · m · v2 J. Kinetic energy

That gives us (1/2) · .01 kg · (7600 m/s)2 = 288.8 kJ for 1 gram mass at orbital velocity.

That's the same energy as a 1500 lb object moving at 65 mph. That should enable a small sized object to poke quite a hole in whatever it hits.
Title: Re: FAA Safety NOTAM
Post by: davidsinn on October 02, 2011, 11:21:13 PM
Quote from: SarDragon on October 02, 2011, 11:04:13 PM
Well, Ek = (1/2) · m · v2 J. Kinetic energy

That gives us (1/2) · .01 kg · (7600 m/s)2 = 288.8 kJ for 1 gram mass at orbital velocity.

That's the same energy as a 1500 lb object moving at 65 mph. That should enable a small sized object to poke quite a hole in whatever it hits.

I highly doubt something with a mass of one gram could survive in the troposphere at orbital velocity.
Title: Re: FAA Safety NOTAM
Post by: JeffDG on October 02, 2011, 11:25:30 PM
Quote from: SarDragon on October 02, 2011, 11:04:13 PM
Well, Ek = (1/2) · m · v2 J. Kinetic energy

That gives us (1/2) · .01 kg · (7600 m/s)2 = 288.8 kJ for 1 gram mass at orbital velocity.

That's the same energy as a 1500 lb object moving at 65 mph. That should enable a small sized object to poke quite a hole in whatever it hits.
Actually, one gram is .001 kg, reducing the kinetic energy to a 150 lb item
Title: Re: FAA Safety NOTAM
Post by: PHall on October 03, 2011, 01:13:18 AM
Quote from: JeffDG on October 02, 2011, 11:25:30 PM
Quote from: SarDragon on October 02, 2011, 11:04:13 PM
Well, Ek = (1/2) · m · v2 J. Kinetic energy

That gives us (1/2) · .01 kg · (7600 m/s)2 = 288.8 kJ for 1 gram mass at orbital velocity.

That's the same energy as a 1500 lb object moving at 65 mph. That should enable a small sized object to poke quite a hole in whatever it hits.
Actually, one gram is .001 kg, reducing the kinetic energy to a 150 lb item

It'll still make a nice hole in YOU if it hits you. Even if you are wearing your hard hat!
Title: Re: FAA Safety NOTAM
Post by: SarDragon on October 03, 2011, 02:08:24 AM
Quote from: JeffDG on October 02, 2011, 11:25:30 PM
Quote from: SarDragon on October 02, 2011, 11:04:13 PM
Well, Ek = (1/2) · m · v2 J. Kinetic energy

That gives us (1/2) · .01 kg · (7600 m/s)2 = 288.8 kJ for 1 gram mass at orbital velocity.

That's the same energy as a 1500 lb object moving at 65 mph. That should enable a small sized object to poke quite a hole in whatever it hits.
Actually, one gram is .001 kg, reducing the kinetic energy to a 150 lb item

OOPS!

Correct calculation:
(1/2) · .001 kg · (7600 m/s)2 = 28.88 kJ for 1 gram mass at orbital velocity.

@ David Sinn - there's still a substantial amount of energy for a small object, even of the speed is a couple of thousand miles an hour slower.

Here's a different comparison - a 40 grain (2.6 g) .22 LR bullet, with a velocity of 330 m/s, has an energy of 159 J.

I'm guessing that the objects are projected to have that 1 g mass after getting through most of the atmosphere.
Title: Re: FAA Safety NOTAM
Post by: Al Sayre on October 03, 2011, 12:57:43 PM
I guess the point is, that if you see a flaming mosquito size object heading at you at speeds approaching mach 3, get the heck out of the way...
Title: Re: FAA Safety NOTAM
Post by: wuzafuzz on October 03, 2011, 11:52:30 PM
Quote from: Al Sayre on October 03, 2011, 12:57:43 PM
I guess the point is, that if you see a flaming mosquito size object heading at you at speeds approaching mach 3, get the heck out of the way...
Or, if a flaming mosquito size object is headed your way...party down!   8)
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