CAP Talk

General Discussion => Uniforms & Awards => Topic started by: BradM on October 05, 2010, 08:29:10 PM

Title: Mission Observer/Scanner training
Post by: BradM on October 05, 2010, 08:29:10 PM
Hello, is it always required to have a Nomex flight suit, all leather boots, and Nomex or leather gloves to start Mission Observer or Mission Scanner training? Are other uniforms also approved?

See:
http://sarcityusa.org/classes.php#4 (http://sarcityusa.org/classes.php#4)

Duration: 16 hours
Scanner and Observer Training: 8, 9 and 10 October 2010

  SARCity is hosted by the Barstow Desert Rescue Squad in conjunction with the San Bernardino County Sheriff, OES, and Barstow College. As part of SARCity, Civil Air Patrol conducts a Mission Scanner class, which is open to non-CAP attendees.

Saturday class will be held at Daggett Airport (DAG); specifically at the Headquarters of

  NTC Aviation Company, US ARMY
39500 National Trails Highway
Daggett, CA 92327-4595

This is a military installation. All participants are required to wear a uniform in accordance with CAPR 39-1and, in the tradition of the United States Military, be cleaned, boots polished, hair cut, etc.

  The first 10 MO & MS registrants will each be scheduled for two training flights. Those flights commence Sunday, 0730 thru 1600. The crew will be a well qualified MP and a MO/MS trainer. The MO student will fly right front; the scanner trainee will ride right back, and instructor left back. That instructor will train both the MO & MS student.

MS and MO prerequisites: minimum age 18, wear a Nomex flight suit (sometimes the label will state "Aramid") with all-leather boots, and have Nomex or leather gloves. 
Title: Re: Mission Observer/Scanner training
Post by: SJFedor on October 05, 2010, 08:31:59 PM
In your wing, at least it used to be.
Title: Re: Mission Observer/Scanner training
Post by: BradM on October 05, 2010, 08:37:13 PM
Quote from: SJFedor on October 05, 2010, 08:31:59 PM
In your wing, at least it used to be.

I want to take MO and MS training the next time its offered. Any suggestions on where to get a Nomex flight suit and boots? Vanguard? ;) or is there a more competitive alternative? How about an Air Force store?
Title: Re: Mission Observer/Scanner training
Post by: vento on October 05, 2010, 08:38:14 PM
I was at SARCity last year (the requirement was the same). Most of MP/MO/MS trainees flew their missions without gloves. They did however wear all leather boots.
Title: Re: Mission Observer/Scanner training
Post by: BradM on October 05, 2010, 08:41:45 PM
Quote from: vento on October 05, 2010, 08:38:14 PM
I was at SARCity last year (the requirement was the same). Most of MP/MO/MS trainees flew their missions without gloves. They did however wear all leather boots.

Are these the same boots that you can wear with the BDUs?
Title: Re: Mission Observer/Scanner training
Post by: SarDragon on October 05, 2010, 08:43:01 PM
Quote from: BradM on October 05, 2010, 08:37:13 PM
Quote from: SJFedor on October 05, 2010, 08:31:59 PM
In your wing, at least it used to be.

I want to take MO and MS training the next time its offered. Any suggestions on where to get a Nomex flight suit and boots? Vanguard? ;) or is there a more competitive alternative? How about an Air Force store?

The suits available from Vanguard are brand new, and expensive.

There are deals for used suits on eBay all the time. Sometimes you have to wait for your size to show up, but the deals are there. I got a really nice blue one for $70. It took a little while to get one for a price I was willing to pay, but it was worth the wait.

Boots - shop around. Get something that fits your feet, and meet the all leather requirement.

Yes, same boots can be worn with BDUs.
Title: Re: Mission Observer/Scanner training
Post by: BradM on October 05, 2010, 08:45:50 PM
In a sport jacket I'm a 42 Short. In a flight suit I would also be a 42S? I'm 5'7.5" tall (short) :)
Title: Re: Mission Observer/Scanner training
Post by: vento on October 05, 2010, 08:46:11 PM
Here's where I got my flightsuit. Still very expensive, but much better than Vanguard.
http://www.bdu.com/F511546347.html

(http://www.bdu.com/h-images/F511546347.jpg)
Title: Re: Mission Observer/Scanner training
Post by: Hawk200 on October 05, 2010, 08:53:18 PM
Quote from: BradM on October 05, 2010, 08:45:50 PM
In a sport jacket I'm a 42 Short. In a flight suit I would also be a 42S? I'm 5'7.5" tall (short) :)
Go the next size up. At 5'7.5', a standard chart shows you as a "short.". So you'd probably want a 44 Short.

Here's a chart from Gibson & Barnes (who absorbed flightsuits.com) : Size Chart (http://www.gibson-barnes.com/index.php?id=46)

As for best shopping, I'd try eBay. I've gotten five from there at a total of $200 (yes, that's an average of $40 a piece). The suits are practically new. Sewed my stuff on them, was good to go.
Title: Re: Mission Observer/Scanner training
Post by: BradM on October 05, 2010, 09:01:57 PM
Thank you all. I saved your recommended sites! :)
Title: Re: Mission Observer/Scanner training
Post by: SarDragon on October 05, 2010, 09:02:35 PM
Quote from: vento on October 05, 2010, 08:46:11 PM
Here's where I got my flightsuit. Still very expensive, but much better than Vanguard.
http://www.bdu.com/F511546347.html (http://www.bdu.com/F511546347.html)



How so? They are all made to the same specs, and the Vanguard source varies according to the current contract, so there's no way of knowing the specific prior to ordering, anyway.
Title: Re: Mission Observer/Scanner training
Post by: vento on October 05, 2010, 09:09:11 PM
Quote from: SarDragon on October 05, 2010, 09:02:35 PM
Quote from: vento on October 05, 2010, 08:46:11 PM
Here's where I got my flightsuit. Still very expensive, but much better than Vanguard.
http://www.bdu.com/F511546347.html (http://www.bdu.com/F511546347.html)



How so? They are all made to the same specs, and the Vanguard source varies according to the current contract, so there's no way of knowing the specific prior to ordering, anyway.

I meant much better than Vanguard (pricing) when it comes to parting with my hard earned money from my own pocket.
Title: Re: Mission Observer/Scanner training
Post by: flyboy53 on October 05, 2010, 11:03:18 PM
I would check with who ever is conducting the training.

Certainly a Nomex flight suit is important, expecially from a safety prospective, but if you were pursing that factor to the end, you'd be wearing Nomex gloves as well.

So, that brings us to the quandry of where to get one cheaply. I would check with the logistics guys to see if someone may have a serviceable flight suit in your size. Then I would start trolling e-bay or surplus stores, and see who can survey stuff at DRMO or land something declared surplus from an active/reserve or guard unit. Also, don't forget gun shows; you never know what might be sitting around cheap...I've outfitted two other aircrew members in my unit with serviceable helmet bags that were picked up at gun shows for five dollars each.

Remember that observers and scanners may not fly as often as the pilots in some wings, so as a last resort, buy it new. Also, be careful to not get one of those commercially-produced look-a-like military flight suits that are only cotton. However, I am aware of some units where the blue utility/flight suit seems the preferred uniform.

My flight suits and jackets are original from A/D and were not new when they were issued to me...as is my flight helmet and helmet bag. They've held up just fine, thank you very much. So, I can attest to the used stuff, as long as you're careful.

As far as a flight suit requirement for entering training, I really question that. BDUs, polo shirts, the blue utilities or flight suits should be acceptable for the ground training...they may even be passable for flight traiining. Afterall, we don't require cadets to wear flight suits for O-rides.

One other thing, the scanner/observer programmed learning guides put out by your wing are ABSOLUTELY EXCELLENT!
Title: Re: Mission Observer/Scanner training
Post by: lordmonar on October 05, 2010, 11:12:19 PM
I would also question the entire need for Nomex at all.

The used to be a PCR sup to 60-1 that required nomex....but it does not exist anymore.  I don't recall if CAWG still has one as well.  I seem to remember that they backed off that requirment.

It may just be someone who remembers the old and still going with "this is the way we always did it".

I may be wrong....and bearing in mind that the UOD can be set by the activity director....a $200 flight suit is pretty hefty price.
Title: Re: Mission Observer/Scanner training
Post by: dbaran on October 06, 2010, 03:22:18 AM
This is a current CAWG rule/policy as a result of a bad accident a few years back.   All ICs have been told to enforce it ... and I have not ever seen a case where it was not observed.  Yeah, it isn't published as an OI (although I did write the draft OI about a year ago because I didn't like unwritten rules myself).    We take it seriously because we remember the painful injuries that could have been prevented, and wouldn't want to have it happen again.

The only downside is that it can be hard to come up with a blue one, but they can be found at reasonable prices with a bit more searching.

Title: Re: Mission Observer/Scanner training
Post by: davidsinn on October 06, 2010, 01:35:53 PM
Quote from: dbaran on October 06, 2010, 03:22:18 AM
This is a current CAWG rule/policy as a result of a bad accident a few years back.   All ICs have been told to enforce it ... and I have not ever seen a case where it was not observed.  Yeah, it isn't published as an OI (although I did write the draft OI about a year ago because I didn't like unwritten rules myself).    We take it seriously because we remember the painful injuries that could have been prevented, and wouldn't want to have it happen again.

The only downside is that it can be hard to come up with a blue one, but they can be found at reasonable prices with a bit more searching.

How do you enforce something not in writing?
Title: Re: Mission Observer/Scanner training
Post by: Al Sayre on October 06, 2010, 01:47:49 PM
If you can live with a 42R here are a couple of sources

http://wardenssupplyco.com/cart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=5_10&products_id=107 (http://wardenssupplyco.com/cart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=5_10&products_id=107)

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=591963 (http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=591963)

Title: Re: Mission Observer/Scanner training
Post by: JeffDG on October 06, 2010, 02:30:29 PM
Quote from: davidsinn on October 06, 2010, 01:35:53 PM
Quote from: dbaran on October 06, 2010, 03:22:18 AM
This is a current CAWG rule/policy as a result of a bad accident a few years back.   All ICs have been told to enforce it ... and I have not ever seen a case where it was not observed.  Yeah, it isn't published as an OI (although I did write the draft OI about a year ago because I didn't like unwritten rules myself).    We take it seriously because we remember the painful injuries that could have been prevented, and wouldn't want to have it happen again.

The only downside is that it can be hard to come up with a blue one, but they can be found at reasonable prices with a bit more searching.

How do you enforce something not in writing?

Wing Commander appoints the ICs for events, and gives orders that the UOD for flight crews is a nomex flight suit.

If the Wing Commander changes, so can the UOD.  Not everything needs to be a formal regulation, much of it can be handled through routine instructions flowing down the chain-of-command.
Title: Re: Mission Observer/Scanner training
Post by: sarmed1 on October 06, 2010, 02:47:47 PM
What I find funny is the all leather boot requirement: 
However my USAF Issued flight approved boots are leather and NYLON with a gortex liner.  No where in the manufacture information is there anything about there being nomex, kevlar or PBI type fire resistant construction.

mk
Title: Re: Mission Observer/Scanner training
Post by: Eclipse on October 06, 2010, 03:01:56 PM
Quote from: davidsinn on October 06, 2010, 01:35:53 PMHow do you enforce something not in writing?

With great difficulty, plenty of wailing and gnashing of teeth, and a health dose of bad feelings all around.
Title: Re: Mission Observer/Scanner training
Post by: MSgt Van on October 06, 2010, 03:47:22 PM
Nomex flight suit and gloves...what's next, a darn helmet? Don't forget the aviator sunglasses. That completes the look.
Title: Re: Mission Observer/Scanner training
Post by: flyboy53 on October 06, 2010, 03:54:01 PM
Quote from: MSgt Van on October 06, 2010, 03:47:22 PM
Nomex flight suit and gloves...what's next, a darn helmet? Don't forget the aviator sunglasses. That completes the look.

OK, so the joke is that I was issued a flight helmet in CAP back in 1975 while assigned to the Indiana Wing because the wing still had O-1 Birddogs and, believe it or not, a BT-13. That helmet travels with me on to A/D, gets reconditioned at Elmendorf AFB, when I became a mission essential aircrew member on HC-130s and HH-3s, and then swaped out for a new one because I took such good care of it, and the Life Support guys wanted it for their collection.

I've actually had to use it once or twice in a 172, works well with an avionics adapter.

So, it's CAP's fault.
Title: Re: Mission Observer/Scanner training
Post by: BradM on October 06, 2010, 05:08:20 PM
Quote from: dbaran on October 06, 2010, 03:22:18 AM
This is a current CAWG rule/policy as a result of a bad accident a few years back.   All ICs have been told to enforce it ... and I have not ever seen a case where it was not observed.  Yeah, it isn't published as an OI (although I did write the draft OI about a year ago because I didn't like unwritten rules myself).    We take it seriously because we remember the painful injuries that could have been prevented, and wouldn't want to have it happen again.

The only downside is that it can be hard to come up with a blue one, but they can be found at reasonable prices with a bit more searching.

What would a Nomex one have added? Are they fire proof?

And why is a blue one preferred?
Title: Re: Mission Observer/Scanner training
Post by: davidsinn on October 06, 2010, 05:55:51 PM
Quote from: BradM on October 06, 2010, 05:08:20 PM

What would a Nomex one have added? Are they fire proof?


You're kidding right? ???

Nomex is a fire resistant material by it's very nature. That's why flight suits are made of it.
Title: Re: Mission Observer/Scanner training
Post by: BradM on October 06, 2010, 06:10:32 PM
No I wasnt kidding. Having never served in any of the armed services nor as a pilot in any capacity "Nomex" was just a name to me. By the context of the posts I assumed it was fireproof and I wanted confirmation. Just because I have/had no prior knowledge of aviation flight suits and other aviation related topics doesnt mean I'm stupid. Just unexposed and unfamiliar with a lot of things regarding aviation. Which I assume in the months and years ahead I will be. :)
Title: Re: Mission Observer/Scanner training
Post by: PhotogPilot on October 06, 2010, 06:44:40 PM
Quote from: BradM on October 06, 2010, 06:10:32 PM
No I wasnt kidding. Having never served in any of the armed services nor as a pilot in any capacity "Nomex" was just a name to me. By the context of the posts I assumed it was fireproof and I wanted confirmation. Just because I have/had no prior knowledge of aviation flight suits and other aviation related topics doesnt mean I'm stupid. Just unexposed and unfamiliar with a lot of things regarding aviation. Which I assume in the months and years ahead I will be. :)

Some things are so ingrained is us that we forget that not everyone has had the same exposure to the terms of art that we use every day. Keep asking and learning. Blue flightsuit is required if you don't meet height/weight and/or grooming standards.
Title: Re: Mission Observer/Scanner training
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on October 06, 2010, 07:52:46 PM
Quote from: PhotogPilot on October 06, 2010, 06:44:40 PM
Quote from: BradM on October 06, 2010, 06:10:32 PM
No I wasnt kidding. Having never served in any of the armed services nor as a pilot in any capacity "Nomex" was just a name to me. By the context of the posts I assumed it was fireproof and I wanted confirmation. Just because I have/had no prior knowledge of aviation flight suits and other aviation related topics doesnt mean I'm stupid. Just unexposed and unfamiliar with a lot of things regarding aviation. Which I assume in the months and years ahead I will be. :)

Some things are so ingrained is us that we forget that not everyone has had the same exposure to the terms of art that we use every day. Keep asking and learning. Blue flightsuit is required if you don't meet height/weight and/or grooming standards.

For a long time I believed Nomex to be some sort of fluid that they'd treat the threads with, so yes, we all have a learning curve with the organizational lingo and TLAs
Title: Re: Mission Observer/Scanner training
Post by: SarDragon on October 06, 2010, 08:12:54 PM
All about Nomex® (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomex).

It would do you well to use a search engine to look up things you see, that you aren't familiar with.
Title: Re: Mission Observer/Scanner training
Post by: Hawk200 on October 06, 2010, 08:22:15 PM
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on October 06, 2010, 07:52:46 PMFor a long time I believed Nomex to be some sort of fluid that they'd treat the threads with, so yes, we all have a learning curve with the organizational lingo and TLAs
I've actually met a few people that thought this, so you're not alone.

Nomex is a type of nylon that's been processed into a textile, and then can be woven into thread or a fabric. It's very similar to Kevar. A little bit of info from the chemical side:Linky (http://www.pleo.com/dupont/nomex/index.html).
Title: Re: Mission Observer/Scanner training
Post by: Eclipse on October 06, 2010, 08:24:27 PM
Quote from: SarDragon on October 06, 2010, 08:12:54 PM
All about Nomex® (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomex).

It would do you well to use a search engine to look up things you see, that you aren't familiar with.

What is the AOL keyword for search engine?
Title: Re: Mission Observer/Scanner training
Post by: Hawk200 on October 06, 2010, 08:37:47 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on October 06, 2010, 08:24:27 PM
Quote from: SarDragon on October 06, 2010, 08:12:54 PM
All about Nomex® (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomex).

It would do you well to use a search engine to look up things you see, that you aren't familiar with.

What is the AOL keyword for search engine?
"Google"?
Title: Re: Mission Observer/Scanner training
Post by: HGjunkie on October 06, 2010, 08:57:48 PM
Wait a minute. AOL? I thought that thing died because noone used it except for their CD coasters.  ::)
Title: Re: Mission Observer/Scanner training
Post by: vento on October 06, 2010, 10:20:36 PM
Quote from: HGjunkie on October 06, 2010, 08:57:48 PM
Wait a minute. AOL? I thought that thing died because noone used it except for their CD coasters.  ::)

You are too young, I still remember the days when Prodigy was number 1 in America and we had our first glimpse of online airfare booking via the Apollo system using our 1200 bps modem.  ;D
Title: Re: Mission Observer/Scanner training
Post by: JeffDG on October 06, 2010, 10:31:45 PM
Ahhh...the days of Compuserve, where your e-mail address was only good with other Compuserve users and was a random string of numbers that was not changeable.  All that at 300 bps.  I could easily outype 300 baud...7.5 words per minute.
Title: Re: Mission Observer/Scanner training
Post by: SarDragon on October 06, 2010, 10:41:38 PM
Punch cards and core memory, anyone?
Title: Re: Mission Observer/Scanner training
Post by: JeffDG on October 06, 2010, 10:50:14 PM
Quote from: SarDragon on October 06, 2010, 10:41:38 PM
Punch cards and core memory, anyone?

I can still read FORTRAN...don't ask me to write it, but if you slap some down in front of me, I can still understand what it's trying to do...COBOL too, but that was all the rage in the late '90s as well.

I've done backups on reel-to-reel tapes too...
Title: Re: Mission Observer/Scanner training
Post by: SarDragon on October 06, 2010, 10:58:10 PM
Drifting a bit, are we?  ;)
Title: Re: Mission Observer/Scanner training
Post by: BradM on October 07, 2010, 12:40:27 AM
Quote from: SarDragon on October 06, 2010, 10:58:10 PM
Drifting a bit, are we?  ;)

Hey all of you knock it off with that ancient computer talk! ;)
Title: Re: Mission Observer/Scanner training
Post by: FlyTiger77 on October 07, 2010, 02:05:48 AM
Quote from: JeffDG on October 06, 2010, 10:50:14 PM
Quote from: SarDragon on October 06, 2010, 10:41:38 PM
Punch cards and core memory, anyone?

I can still read FORTRAN...don't ask me to write it, but if you slap some down in front of me, I can still understand what it's trying to do...COBOL too, but that was all the rage in the late '90s as well.

I've done backups on reel-to-reel tapes too...

I remember using a cassette tape recorder as a storage device...
Title: Re: Mission Observer/Scanner training
Post by: indygreg on October 07, 2010, 09:23:12 AM
Quote from: FlyTiger77 on October 07, 2010, 02:05:48 AM
Quote from: JeffDG on October 06, 2010, 10:50:14 PM
Quote from: SarDragon on October 06, 2010, 10:41:38 PM
Punch cards and core memory, anyone?

I can still read FORTRAN...don't ask me to write it, but if you slap some down in front of me, I can still understand what it's trying to do...COBOL too, but that was all the rage in the late '90s as well.

I've done backups on reel-to-reel tapes too...

I remember using a cassette tape recorder as a storage device...


Me too, on my Commodore Vic 20
Title: Re: Mission Observer/Scanner training
Post by: BillB on October 07, 2010, 10:41:23 AM
Learned Cobol and Fortran when taking an USAF ECI Course. My first computer used CPM back when the standard storage device was a 5 1/4 floppy.
Title: Re: Mission Observer/Scanner training
Post by: JeffDG on October 07, 2010, 11:18:08 AM
Quote from: BillB on October 07, 2010, 10:41:23 AM
Learned Cobol and Fortran when taking an USAF ECI Course. My first computer used CPM back when the standard storage device was a 5 1/4 floppy.

Lemme guess...Turbo Pascal too...that was pretty common on CP/M machines.