CAP senior member NCOs are not "Officers" but cadet officers are

Started by RiverAux, December 13, 2006, 11:38:19 PM

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

lordmonar

Quote from: mikeylikey on December 19, 2006, 04:35:47 AMI get what your saying but my point that I tried to get across was that as an Officer I was appointed as an Officer by the President and my Oath of Office was my legal acceptance of that appointment.  My Commission Certificate that hangs on my wall merely states the appointment.  Even though the document says others of lesser rank must obey me, the true laws regulating obedience are found in regulations and the USC, as are all the other things relating to Officers in the Uniformed Services.  The execution of the Oath of Office is the only legal binding and power deriving device that makes a private citizen an Officer.  In the past it may have been that the Commission Certificate itself was the source of power.  Today it is our laws on record and the appointment to US Government Office. 

The certificate is your proof that you took that oath.  Much like your birth certificate...you don't need every day....but once you start getting into the legal/bureaucratic world....you got show proof that you raise your right hand and swore that oath.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

JohnKachenmeister

The laws and the certificate go hand-in-hand.  The source of the officer's authority is the authority that the President grants him, no more, no less.  The commission states that the President "Reposes special trust and confidence in..." the officer, and directs him to obey the President's orders.  It also directs everybody else to obey the officer.  The laws of the US (And they have ALWAYS existed) state that any soldier who disobeys an officer acting under the authority of the President is is deep kim-che, as is an officer who acts contrary to the President's orders.
Another former CAP officer

Monty

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on December 18, 2006, 10:26:54 PM
.................................I took a lot of .............. Psychology pseudo-sciences because there are no right or wrong answers there.

Ouch, baby......very, very OUCH!   ;)

Guess I ain't showing you MY college transcripts.....   :D

DrJbdm

 My honest opinion is that we should be commissioned as Officers thru CAP/USAF as CAP USAF AUX Officers. for what purpose? Well as DNall and others have said it would certainly mean something to the person being Commissioned and it would help in the retention area as well. Besides it adds credibility to us as the USAF AUX if we have a nice Commission hanging on the wall that mirrors as close as possible the USAF commission. Now I think we all know that commission wouldn't mean a darn thing legally or even in the military world, but it would mean a lot for those who earned it. (I think we NEED to earn it, but that's another discussion)

  On my wall hangs a Certificate from the Texas Commission on Law Enforcement licensing me as a Peace Officer as well as a Commission from my agency appointing me as a Police Officer for the State of Texas, that also hangs on my wall, But that isn't what really makes me a Peace Officer or what really gives me any special powers, or even what allows me to carry my gun everywhere I go. That power ultimately comes from the oath I swore to with the Secretary of State and with the Agency who commissioned me as a Peace Officer. But it is a total package. (my credentials I carry in my wallet attests to the fact that I'm a Commissioned Officer)

  As for the person beating up on DNall for listing his education, that's not needed, what's wrong with listing your credentials/education if it's relevant? I hold a Doctoral degree and I don't flaunt it, Hell I don't even call myself Doctor.  But I would bring it up in a conversation if the conversation headed into an area of my expertise...... underwater basket weaving!  DNall has a fine education; he is very well suited to discuss these areas. Maybe those of us who haven't been commissioned as Military Officers can learn something. He did work hard for his degree as did all of us who have a degree....regardless of the major.

   Ok, forgive me for sticking up for DNall; I'm a member of his fan club...lol.

DNall

ah crap. Now there's fan clubs? Does that help or hurt in a security clearance investigation?  :D Thanks doc, but it's really no problems. No sweat off my back, I got a decently thick skin. I can't go starting contentious discussions & then expect everyone to play nice in everything they say. It's really no big deal.

JohnKachenmeister

OK, so now DNall has a fan club.  What I want is groupies waiting for my band bus at the backstage door!
Another former CAP officer

DNall

Dangit, I forgot about groupies. Now I want some of those too. What form is that again to get them issued by the Army?

flyguy06

Quote from: RiverAux on December 16, 2006, 03:04:42 PM
There must have been a reason that they felt it necessary to tack on that last phrase about them being under the age of 21.  I have a hard time believing they would do that unless there was some other requirement limiting it to 21 or above. 

Thats not true. There are six military junior colleges inthe USA. They will commission you as a college sophomoer and that is usually age 20. Now with that in mind, you MUST get your Bachelors in order to keep that commission.

flyguy06

Check this out since we are talking about ranks. In the National Guard, the Head of each state is called the Adjutant General (or TAG for short). There are 52 of these each state plus the Virgin Islands and PR) each TAG is normally a two-star General. Why? Because the CHief of the National Guard Bureau whos is a full time Guardsman in Washington DC is a three star Genral. Now, in my state, the Givenor promoted our TAG to three stars. I dont know how he did it, but he did. SO, now our TAG is the only three start TAG int he nation. However it is only recognized inthe state. If he goeas outside the state or if goes in front of the Chief, National Guard Bureau, he WILL where two stars. Its kinda strange, but hey its way above my pay grade, so I dont get involved. Jusst thought I'd mention it.

DNall

Quote from: flyguy06 on December 19, 2006, 10:52:33 PM
Check this out since we are talking about ranks. In the National Guard, the Head of each state is called the Adjutant General (or TAG for short). There are 52 of these each state plus the Virgin Islands and PR) each TAG is normally a two-star General. Why? Because the CHief of the National Guard Bureau whos is a full time Guardsman in Washington DC is a three star Genral. Now, in my state, the Givenor promoted our TAG to three stars. I dont know how he did it, but he did. SO, now our TAG is the only three start TAG int he nation. However it is only recognized inthe state. If he goeas outside the state or if goes in front of the Chief, National Guard Bureau, he WILL where two stars. Its kinda strange, but hey its way above my pay grade, so I dont get involved. Jusst thought I'd mention it.
Actually, the way I understand it you can only have a federal commission in the guard up to Colonel, and ALL gruard generals are on state commissions for their stars. I know that was the case for the AAG-Air I knew here who had a federal commission at O-6 & state commission at O-7. The TAG at that time had a federal commission at O-9 cause he'd held it on active duty & was confirmed by congress. I'm not absolutely positive on all this, but I know for sure they do have to revert to federally recognized grade when called to federal active duty for over 30 days or something &/or in Washington. I've seen the rule on it, but the exact details ellude me right this second.

flyguy06

That is not true. The TAG is NOT a once a month soldier. He is a full time Guardsman. He is AGR (active Guard/Reserves) So he is basically active duty. My Brigade Commander is a one star. He is a monthly soldier. and his commission as well as mine is federaly recognized. The Guard in no differant than active duty. Maybe it was like that back inthe day, but nowadys. A commission is a commission. They are all the same. I went through the Guard OCS program. It was certified by FT Benning. We had FT Benning instructors and I have the same commission my active duty brothern have

JohnKachenmeister

To explain the point of state vs, federal rank.  The governor can commission officers to any rank.  This is called a state commission.  IF the officer meets the standards set by the Army or Air Force for that rank, then the officer will be "Federally recognized" at that rank.

Otherwise, once called to federal active duty, the state rank comes off, and the highest federal rank goes on.  On state active duty (disaster relief, for example) the state rank stays on.

When I was commissioned, I got BOTH a state and federal commission.  I got the governor's first, then the President's a few months later, backdated to the day I completed OCS.  I never got a new federal commission to reflect my new rank, but when I was promoted to Major in the Guard, I got a new governor's commission certificate with my new rank.

1LT and CPT I made in the USAR, so I didn't get a state commission.
Another former CAP officer

flyguy06

This may be true and it may have been like that in Vietnam. But in today's National Guard, I have never seen that and I have been in for 18 years.

DNall

No, John is right on this one. It's not one of those real obvious things that everyone knows about, but it is the case. For instance, you can go thru that state OCS program prior to finishing a degree. Because it meets the curriculum requirements of the big Army & you're eval'd by a federally commissioned officer, if you DO have your degree done then you'll get a federal commission from the start. On the other hand, if you're still lacking some hours or there is some other issue (paperwork a lot of times) then you will get a state commission at the start, which gets you out to your unit acting as an officer, then when you finish up you'll be eval'd again & get the federal commission you now qual for. That's the way it works right now based on how Congress does the strength numbers, but if they want to push that number up over the congressional allowance than sometimes they do that by keeping NG officers on state commissions. It also happens sometimes that the state will promote you & it'll become federally recognized six months later. It really isn't a big deal at all.

You see it at that stage & you also see it at the very top with TAG & AAGs (they're on state active duty, you notice they DO wear state decorations). BCT/CCs I would think would have a federal commission based on the nature of their assignment.

This is all well beyond semantics, so ^^ just for the sake of discussion.

lordmonar

Quote from: flyguy06 on December 20, 2006, 01:24:40 AM
That is not true. The TAG is NOT a once a month soldier. He is a full time Guardsman. He is AGR (active Guard/Reserves) So he is basically active duty.
AGR is full time on the states dime not the federal dime....and that makes a difference.


Quote from: flyguy06 on December 20, 2006, 01:24:40 AMMy Brigade Commander is a one star. He is a monthly soldier. and his commission as well as mine is federally recognized. The Guard in no different than active duty. Maybe it was like that back in the day, but nowadays. A commission is a commission. They are all the same. I went through the Guard OCS program. It was certified by FT Benning. We had FT Benning instructors and I have the same commission my active duty brethren have

Sort of...the regular services recognize all state commissions...but there is a difference.  If the NG gets federalised...the DOD does NOT have to recognized those commissions.  If we went to war and all the NG's got federalized and we did not need so many officers...the DOD could convert them to enlisted ranks.  Not this will ever happen in the near future...but it has happened in the past and is still in the rule books.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

JohnKachenmeister

Quote from: flyguy06 on December 20, 2006, 04:03:15 AM
This may be true and it may have been like that in Vietnam. But in today's National Guard, I have never seen that and I have been in for 18 years.

Flyguy:

First, I was enlisted in Vietnam.  I was not commissioned until 1978.

Your state may do it different.  The governor of Ohio makes it a point to award commissions to all Guard officers.  Guard officers hold "Dual commissions,"  state and federal.  This is seldom an issue, except when the gov. commissions an officer higher than his federal grade.  He can wear the higher rank, but is paid by his federal grade unless he is on state active duty.  If called to federal active duty, he can not wear state awards nor state rank.

Another former CAP officer

flyguy06

Quote from: lordmonar on December 20, 2006, 07:34:42 AM
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 20, 2006, 01:24:40 AM
That is not true. The TAG is NOT a once a month soldier. He is a full time Guardsman. He is AGR (active Guard/Reserves) So he is basically active duty.
AGR is full time on the states dime not the federal dime....and that makes a difference.


Quote from: flyguy06 on December 20, 2006, 01:24:40 AMMy Brigade Commander is a one star. He is a monthly soldier. and his commission as well as mine is federally recognized. The Guard in no different than active duty. Maybe it was like that back in the day, but nowadays. A commission is a commission. They are all the same. I went through the Guard OCS program. It was certified by FT Benning. We had FT Benning instructors and I have the same commission my active duty brethren have

Sort of...the regular services recognize all state commissions...but there is a difference.  If the NG gets federalised...the DOD does NOT have to recognized those commissions.  If we went to war and all the NG's got federalized and we did not need so many officers...the DOD could convert them to enlisted ranks.  Not this will ever happen in the near future...but it has happened in the past and is still in the rule books.

We just got back from Iraq (which is definantly federalized) and we all had the same rank we had back in the state.

JohnKachenmeister

Like I said, it is rare for a governor to commission someone higher than his federal grade.  Normally it happens only at the general officer level.  A colonel who is appointed to a BG position has to wait on a list until his star is officially recognized by the federal government, since there is a Congressionally-imposed limit on the number of general and flag officers.  He has to wait out deaths and retirements until he bubbles up on the list.

Not so with a Guard general.  The governor commissions him a BG, and on goes the star.

The exception to this is when a general selectee goes overseas.  A colonel in a general officer command who has his unit deploy overseas usually is "Frocked" or paid as a colonel but with the badge of rank of a general.

This happened with a USMA grad that took over my USAR reserve command back in the 80's.  He wanted to put on that star, so he talked somebody at DA into deploying us to Honduras for training.  He went with the HQ, and got frocked before we went.  He got his star, I spent 6 months in the jungle and got a re-lapse of my malaria.

Doo-doo rolls down hill, and I live in the valley.

Another former CAP officer

lordmonar

Quote from: flyguy06 on December 20, 2006, 04:02:49 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on December 20, 2006, 07:34:42 AM
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 20, 2006, 01:24:40 AM
That is not true. The TAG is NOT a once a month soldier. He is a full time Guardsman. He is AGR (active Guard/Reserves) So he is basically active duty.
AGR is full time on the states dime not the federal dime....and that makes a difference.


Quote from: flyguy06 on December 20, 2006, 01:24:40 AMMy Brigade Commander is a one star. He is a monthly soldier. and his commission as well as mine is federally recognized. The Guard in no different than active duty. Maybe it was like that back in the day, but nowadays. A commission is a commission. They are all the same. I went through the Guard OCS program. It was certified by FT Benning. We had FT Benning instructors and I have the same commission my active duty brethren have

Sort of...the regular services recognize all state commissions...but there is a difference.  If the NG gets federalised...the DOD does NOT have to recognized those commissions.  If we went to war and all the NG's got federalized and we did not need so many officers...the DOD could convert them to enlisted ranks.  Not this will ever happen in the near future...but it has happened in the past and is still in the rule books.

We just got back from Iraq (which is definantly federalized) and we all had the same rank we had back in the state.

Yes sir....and the military right now needs all the officers it can get ergo....they chose to recognise your state commission (assuming you do not also hold a federal commission).
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

DNall

Quote from: lordmonar on December 20, 2006, 05:12:38 PM
Yes sir....and the military right now needs all the officers it can get ergo....they chose to recognise your state commission (assuming you do not also hold a federal commission).
Careful, cause that word "recognition" tends to mean they eval your quals & grant a federal commission. I know a guy actually I shuld ask about this. He joined the guard (MP) to pay for school & got sent to state OCS a couple years in. He got a state commission cause he'd yet to finish his degree. Then they were deployed to Gitmo for a year (not very good things to say about the current residents). I know he kept his bar while down there. I met him after he'd gotten back & he was in school then. I don't know if they granted him a federal commission or not. Obviously he didn't have a degree, but he was on active duty for over 30-60 days whatever the number is before you're supposed to take off. I don't know the paperwork came down on that.