CAP senior member NCOs are not "Officers" but cadet officers are

Started by RiverAux, December 13, 2006, 11:38:19 PM

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ELTHunter

Quote from: Psicorp on December 14, 2006, 06:36:29 PM
If someone really wanted to be a stickler about it, we could change the designations slightly and call CAP Officers "Appointed Officers" and NCOs, "Non-Appointed Officers" (NAOs).   

Interesting thought.
Maj. Tim Waddell, CAP
SER-TN-170
Deputy Commander of Cadets
Emergency Services Officer

RogueLeader

Pass it Chain of Command, and see what happens.  It'll be interesting I'm sure.
WYWG DP

GRW 3340

Psicorp

Quote from: RogueLeader on December 15, 2006, 06:10:38 PM
Pass it Chain of Command, and see what happens.  It'll be interesting I'm sure.

As I said, it doesn't really matter.  My grade could be "Civilian Airman First Class" and it would make no difference in how I do my job or why I do my job.   
Jamie Kahler, Capt., CAP
(C/Lt Col, ret.)
CC
GLR-MI-257

DeputyDog

Quote from: Hammer on December 14, 2006, 04:26:58 PM
Quote from: ELThunter on December 14, 2006, 04:15:55 AM
I've always thought it wasn't quite right to call Cadet Sargents NCO's also, because no CAP members are commissioned whether they are Senior Member Officers or Cadet Officers.

There's an Active Duty Air Force Lt Col in my Squadron, who is Comissioned.
Who is commissioned as an Air Force officer, not as a CAP officer. CAP regulations allow him to be "appointed" as a CAP Lieutenant Colonel because he or she was commissioned as a Lieutenant Colonel in the Air Force.
Quote
FWIW, I hear that CAP SM NCO's out-rank CAP SM Officers, because their rank is Federal. But that's just what I was told by someone who's both a CAP and AF Officer.
So how does it work when a National Guard NCO who is not on federal status joins CAP and is appointed as a CAP NCO? "Federal rank" has no bearing on the CAP since we are not subject to the UCMJ. Military officers do not have command jurisdiction over CAP personnel. Like someone else said, CAP is based on positional authority rather than grade authority.

So technically...a non-prior service First Lieutenant who is a squadron commander will "out-rank" an active duty Lieutenant Colonel who is in the CAP as a Lieutenant Colonel and is in that squadron.

DeputyDog

Quote from: Psicorp on December 14, 2006, 06:36:29 PM
If someone really wanted to be a stickler about it, we could change the designations slightly and call CAP Officers "Appointed Officers" and NCOs, "Non-Appointed Officers" (NAOs).    
According to CAPR 35-5....CAP NCOs are "Appointed Officers" as well. There is no real authoritative distinction between a CAP Staff Sergeant and a CAP Second Lieutenant. They are both "Appointed Officers". The only difference that I have found in the regulations is that one of them gets saluted first.

There is no need to change the designation...as the term Non-commissioned Officer means that they are not comissioned. 

Psicorp

Quote from: DeputyDog on December 15, 2006, 07:07:40 PM
So technically...a non-prior service First Lieutenant who is a squadron commander will "out-rank" an active duty Lieutenant Colonel who is in the CAP as a Lieutenant Colonel and is in that squadron.

That's the difference between "grade" and "rank".
Jamie Kahler, Capt., CAP
(C/Lt Col, ret.)
CC
GLR-MI-257

MIKE

Depends... People say that, but it don't jive with whats in Leadership 2000: And Beyond... And that's the only place I've seen it defined officially::)
Mike Johnston

Major_Chuck

Hmmm....

Just another reason why we should adopt a Flight Officer Grade for all adult (don't use the term ....senior old goat member) based upon what level of the Adult training program you fall in.  FO1, FO2, FO3, FO4,or FO5.

Another option would be Brevet Lieutenant Colonel, Brevet Major, Brevet Captain...
Chuck Cranford
SGT, TNCO VA OCS
Virginia Army National Guard

DeputyDog

Quote from: CAP Sergeant on December 15, 2006, 07:53:17 PM
Hmmm....

Just another reason why we should adopt a Flight Officer Grade for all adult (don't use the term ....senior old goat member) based upon what level of the Adult training program you fall in.  FO1, FO2, FO3, FO4,or FO5.

Another option would be Brevet Lieutenant Colonel, Brevet Major, Brevet Captain...
Would that change anything other than what they are called? How would the Air Force react to someone identifying themselves as "Brevet Captain Smith from the CAP" when conducting business with them? I remember the double-takes I got when I was a Senior Flight Officer attending a CLC on an Air Force base.

Hammer

Quote from: DeputyDog on December 15, 2006, 07:07:40 PM
Quote from: Hammer on December 14, 2006, 04:26:58 PM
Quote from: ELThunter on December 14, 2006, 04:15:55 AM
I've always thought it wasn't quite right to call Cadet Sargents NCO's also, because no CAP members are commissioned whether they are Senior Member Officers or Cadet Officers.

There's an Active Duty Air Force Lt Col in my Squadron, who is Comissioned.
Who is commissioned as an Air Force officer, not as a CAP officer. CAP regulations allow him to be "appointed" as a CAP Lieutenant Colonel because he or she was commissioned as a Lieutenant Colonel in the Air Force.
Actually, Commissioned as a Second Lieutenant, only some Doctors and Lawyers get Commissioned as a Lieutenant Colone.

Quote from: DeputyDog on December 15, 2006, 07:07:40 PM
So how does it work when a National Guard NCO who is not on federal status joins CAP and is appointed as a CAP NCO? "Federal rank" has no bearing on the CAP since we are not subject to the UCMJ. Military officers do not have command jurisdiction over CAP personnel. Like someone else said, CAP is based on positional authority rather than grade authority.
National Guard rank carrries the same weight as Reserve rank, because the Guard is a Reserve Component.

Quote from: DeputyDog on December 15, 2006, 07:07:40 PM
So technically...a non-prior service First Lieutenant who is a squadron commander will "out-rank" an active duty Lieutenant Colonel who is in the CAP as a Lieutenant Colonel and is in that squadron.
Kinda, sorta, not really.

JohnKachenmeister

Flight Officer status shouldn't, but does create raised eyebrows in the USAF.  The USAF and the Army Air Corps both used "Flight Officer" for the same reason we do... You have to be 21 to be a 2nd Lt. by federal law.  Even though not really commissioned, we defer to the public law in our officer appointments to avoid confusion.
Another former CAP officer

JohnKachenmeister

And also to avoid people laughing when one of our lieutenants buys razor blades! >:D
Another former CAP officer

lordmonar

Quote from: Hammer on December 16, 2006, 02:37:42 AM
Quote from: DeputyDog on December 15, 2006, 07:07:40 PM
So technically...a non-prior service First Lieutenant who is a squadron commander will "out-rank" an active duty Lieutenant Colonel who is in the CAP as a Lieutenant Colonel and is in that squadron.
Kinda, sorta, not really.

Not kinda, sorta...100% correct, positional authority always out ranks pay grade.

When the President flies on Air Force One, the Col PIC is the ranking officer on that plane and everyone must follow his orders.

Particularly in CAP the squadron command out ranks everyone in his squadron.  Just as an IC is the top dog at a mission base, irregardless of their actual grade.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

DeputyDog

Quote from: Hammer on December 16, 2006, 02:37:42 AM
Actually, Commissioned as a Second Lieutenant, only some Doctors and Lawyers get Commissioned as a Lieutenant Colone.
Sorry about that. I should have said "holds or held" a commission as a Lieutenant Colonel.
Quote from: Hammer
National Guard rank carrries the same weight as Reserve rank, because the Guard is a Reserve Component.
You missed my point on that. I was trying to get across that the term "Federal Rank" has no bearing on "ranking" in the CAP. However, not all National Guardsmen have federal recognition for their rank. Sometimes there is a delay between when the state promotes you, and when you get federal recognition for that grade.

The interesting thing is that CAPR 35-5 does not provide for that situation. We can promote any person to the CAP NCO grade of Master Sergeant as long as they have something official (ID card, orders, etc.) that says they are a Master Sergeant or its equivalent. If their federal recognition is only that of a Technical Sergeant, how is anyone in CAP going to know the difference? So is that CAP Master Sergeant's "rank" federal? It doesn't matter. CAP doesn't go off that. In order for "federal rank" to matter in the CAP, some of the laws that govern our relationship with the military need to be changed.
Quote from: Hammer
Kinda, sorta, not really.
Someone else answered this, but I'll expand. What would happen if a non-prior service Major was a Squadron Commander, and that prior-service Lieutenant Colonel (who is in the Major's squadron) was attempting to give him orders? "Kinda, sorta, not really" would be nowhere in sight...and neither would that Lieutenant Colonel if he or she tried pulling that on me.

I recently had a senior member (officer) try and do that me. He had a hard time grasping the concept of positional authority versus grade authority. I provided a way for him to see the light.

DeputyDog

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on December 16, 2006, 02:40:18 AM
You have to be 21 to be a 2nd Lt. by federal law.
Where do you get that from? You can go through Army OCS at age 18. On completion do they just sit around until they turn 21?

I haven't found any federal laws that restrict the grade of second lieutenant to those who are age 21 or above. In fact, I found this under Title 10, Section 2106 in reference to Senior R.O.T.C.: (a) Upon satisfactorily completing the academic and military
requirements of the program of advanced training, a member of the
program who was selected for advanced training under section 2104 of
this title may be appointed as a regular or reserve officer in the
appropriate armed force in the grade of second lieutenant or ensign,
even though he is under 21 years of age.

RiverAux

There must have been a reason that they felt it necessary to tack on that last phrase about them being under the age of 21.  I have a hard time believing they would do that unless there was some other requirement limiting it to 21 or above. 

DeputyDog

Quote from: RiverAux on December 16, 2006, 03:04:42 PM
There must have been a reason that they felt it necessary to tack on that last phrase about them being under the age of 21.  I have a hard time believing they would do that unless there was some other requirement limiting it to 21 or above. 
It could be common pratice or departmental policy to say age 21 for second lieutenant. I looked through Title 10 and could not find anything actually restricting it to 21 year olds or above.

ELTHunter

Didn't this horse just get beat to death on another thread?
Maj. Tim Waddell, CAP
SER-TN-170
Deputy Commander of Cadets
Emergency Services Officer

DeputyDog

Quote from: ELThunter on December 16, 2006, 03:57:53 PM
Didn't this horse just get beat to death on another thread?
Which thread? I remember it being talked about on the Portal with nothing definitive being concluded, but not here. Besides, the federal law issue wasn't discussed in trying to find a source.

JohnKachenmeister

Quote from: DeputyDog on December 16, 2006, 01:17:55 PM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on December 16, 2006, 02:40:18 AM
You have to be 21 to be a 2nd Lt. by federal law.
Where do you get that from? You can go through Army OCS at age 18. On completion do they just sit around until they turn 21?

I haven't found any federal laws that restrict the grade of second lieutenant to those who are age 21 or above. In fact, I found this under Title 10, Section 2106 in reference to Senior R.O.T.C.: (a) Upon satisfactorily completing the academic and military
requirements of the program of advanced training, a member of the
program who was selected for advanced training under section 2104 of
this title may be appointed as a regular or reserve officer in the
appropriate armed force in the grade of second lieutenant or ensign,
even though he is under 21 years of age.


Maybe my information is as dated as my wardrobe.  When I went through Army OCS, we had a 20-year old candidate who was accepted because our graduation date was after her 21st birthday.  When some situation (Can't recall anymore what it was) forced a change to our graduation date by a week or so, the staff had to get authorization from the Dept. of the Army to "Frock" her as a 2LT on graduation, and her date of rank was her birthday, a week or so after everybody else in the class.

Another former CAP officer