Corporate or Auxiliary

[Smokey]

The idea is corporate vs. aux.  I am all for states supplementing AF funding. But when outside funding is more important that your moral compass, I have a problem.

One person so far has been honest enough to admit he is here for himself. He said in a post "And that has always been my point.....CAP is a flying club that want to help our nation.  I don't have a problem with that idea.  People join CAP because they get to fly.  They get to fly free or cheap, they get to meet and interact with other people who like to fly and serve their country."   Notice the bit about serving is last, almost an afterthought.

Many who post here who want CAP to be a corporation who only works for the AF part time are those who believe in "Self before service". It doesn't matter to them who pays or what the mission as long as they can fly. If CAP operates as a corporation willing to fly for anyone who will pay the bill, they are no different than banner towers, cancelled check haulers, etc. just cheaper.

The origins of CAP revolved around folks sacrificing to serve our counttry in the war effort. Read about how many gave up jobs and family to help out in "The Flying Minutemen" history of CAP.  They didn't come to CAP to fly for free but to serve. It was not self serving. That's where my roots are. Not with " I fly for free or I'm outta here."

I know there are some coporate side folks out there who will fly for the local dog rescue , looking for a lost poodle and call it "training." After all. it's free flying.  I however refuse to prostitute myself.  I'll save myself for the Air Force and missions I will be proud to tell my kids about.

[lordmonar]

One person so far has been honest enough to admit he is here for himself. He said in a post "And that has always been my point.....CAP is a flying club that want to help our nation.  I don't have a problem with that idea.  People join CAP because they get to fly.  They get to fly free or cheap, they get to meet and interact with other people who like to fly and serve their country."   Notice the bit about serving is last, almost an afterthought.

I would not necessarily say that I am her for myself.  I am here to help my country and my state and my city AND to do indulge my love of flying.  That is what CAP is.  We are first and formost volunteers who want to help AND they have a love of flying and the Air Force culture.  If I wanted to help and had a more medical bent, I would join the Red Cross.  If I wanted to help but had a more pyromania bent, I would join my local volunteer fire department.  If wanted to help but had a more criminal justice bent I would join my local police axillary.

If I just wanted to fly...I would just rent a plane and fly, it would be a lot cheaper to mean in terms of time spent.

Many who post here who want CAP to be a corporation who only works for the AF part time are those who believe in "Self before service". It doesn't matter to them who pays or what the mission as long as they can fly. If CAP operates as a corporation willing to fly for anyone who will pay the bill, they are no different than banner towers, cancelled check haulers, etc. just cheaper.

Again I think you are mis-representing the aims of most of the members of CAP AND you are not really state the true status of our organization.  We are current only part time USAF-AUX right now.  I am only looking for ways to keep CAP viable if/when the USAF starts to drop our funding and mission support.  And in no way do I think we should become a business enterprise, but with our focus mainly on the USAF assigned mission, we are loosing a lot of opprotunities to help our country.  The search for the Kim family is a prime example.  The local sheriff may not have even known that he had a small air force just chomping at the bit to help.  There are lots of law enforcement missions that would be perfect for us if we did not have posse commutates holding us back.

The origins of CAP revolved around folks sacrificing to serve our counttry in the war effort. Read about how many gave up jobs and family to help out in "The Flying Minutemen" history of CAP.  They didn't come to CAP to fly for free but to serve. It was not self serving. That's where my roots are. Not with " I fly for free or I'm outta here."

Again you are res-representing what I, and others have said.  I would still join CAP even if I had to pay for ever flight and every ground mission that came my way.  No one (at least not me) has ever said....I fly for free or not at all!  In fact if you look back you will see a post where I already stated that in the last four months we have had two self funded SAREXs and there was not a peep from the squadron and we had the same exact turn out as when we had CAP funded SAREXs.

I know there are some coporate side folks out there who will fly for the local dog rescue , looking for a lost poodle and call it "training." After all. it's free flying.  I however refuse to prostitute myself.  I'll save myself for the Air Force and missions I will be proud to tell my kids about.

And what is wrong with that?  You say that we are self before service...but you would refuse to help your community when called upon because it was beneath your dignity?!  No sir!  It is you and your pride that marks you as a self before service individual.  If the local animal shelter wanted our assistance to conduct an area search for a lost pet....like that would ever happen...and they wanted to fund it....again like they have that kind of cash laying around...why not fly it?  Looking for a single animal in the woods is execellant training for SAR and HLS missions.  But you would ignore the free training because it was below your dignity.  I think you need to go back and check your assumptions about what is really service before self.  Service before self is doing the jobs that help your community with out taking in to account things like home life and personal dignity.

[Smokey]

This has nothing to do with being below me.....my post was meant to show those who would use searching for a lost pet with an aircraft( as ridiculous as that would be) and claim it is for training are again not honest with themselves.  You obviously missed illustrating the absurd by being absurd. Please....if you feel it is so necessary for you to fly for free that you would search for a lost dog in the woods...well there is nothing I can say.  You obviously feel the risk of flying over the woods for a lost dog is important.  If it wasn't for free would you rent a plane for $100/hr and fly the mission. I'll bet my CAP paycheck you would not.

We will always disagree on this...you want to fly for free no matter the mission. I have other standards. If I want to fly for proficiency or for the joy of flight...I rent a plane. I stand willing to fly AF missions, searches for lost  PEOPLE, disaster recon, disaster relief, WADS missions and the like.    But I refuse to take anyones money to fly silly missions ( looking for  Millie the poodle, flying a survey mission for the local real estate agent looking for land to sell(but  who is on the local govt. redevelopment committee using govt funds, etc. ) in a CAP aircraft just so I can log hours.

If someone wanted to pay me outside of CAP for surveying real estate, or checking on their flock of sheep, etc. that would be fine. 

You and I have different standards.  My grandkids will hear how I searched for a missing aircraft, located a stranded hiker in the mountains, flew a WADS mission to train AF pilots in intercepts.  Yours will hear how you found fluffy in the woods.

I wish you luck in your CAP endeavors.

[lordmonar]

This has nothing to do with being below me.....my post was meant to show those who would use searching for a lost pet with an aircraft( as ridiculous as that would be) and claim it is for training are again not honest with themselves.  You obviously missed illustrating the absurd by being absurd. Please....if you feel it is so necessary for you to fly for free that you would search for a lost dog in the woods...well there is nothing I can say.  You obviously feel the risk of flying over the woods for a lost dog is important.  If it wasn't for free would you rent a plane for $100/hr and fly the mission. I'll bet my CAP paycheck you would not.

Well we have never been asked to look for lost dogs (that was your suggestion not mine) but CAP has flow animal tracking missions for a university recently (can't remember what wing but it was in the news...and someone on this board complained about it!).

And again...I would not fly the mission because it was free flying...I would fly the mission because it would be helping my community.   As for paying to fly...I have done so.  I have payed for the privilege to get my CAP training on more than one occasion and I will do so again.  If we ever get the call to go out and help someone for real and we got to pay for it ourselves...I will be one of the first to pony up the money.  Would I do the same for a lost dog or a animal tracking mission?  Maybe...depends on the situation.  That has nothing to do with my want to serve my community.

We will always disagree on this...you want to fly for free no matter the mission. I have other standards. If I want to fly for proficiency or for the joy of flight...I rent a plane. I stand willing to fly AF missions, searches for lost  PEOPLE, disaster recon, disaster relief, WADS missions and the like.    But I refuse to take anyones money to fly silly missions ( looking for  Millie the poodle, flying a survey mission for the local real estate agent looking for land to sell(but  who is on the local govt. redevelopment committee using govt funds, etc. ) in a CAP aircraft just so I can log hours.

So again...you do not want to support your community if the missions below your level of dignity.  That is like a leader saying....I will clean the office but I don't do windows...because that is silly.  And again...I am NOT saying we should be doing business missions.  We should not be for "hire" but we should be available to any public service organization that has a need for aerial support.  The local real estate agent would have to go to a commercial service for his survey flight....but the local county surveyor should be able to call on us for support to do the same job.

If the local realestate agent cons the county in doing the job for him....that is not my look out and assuming such a thing were legal...who cares?  Yes it is not a "real" mission.  But you can't say the techniques and skills developed flying such over flights do not prepare you to fly the same profile during a DR damage assessment survey.  Just as looking for the lost dog is a fine training for looking for a lost child.  If you can find Fido in the woods a child should be child's play.  Yes Fido is not anywhere near as important as little Johnny....but finding Fido make you better at finding Johnny.

You and I have different standards.  My grandkids will hear how I searched for a missing aircraft, located a stranded hiker in the mountains, flew a WADS mission to train AF pilots in intercepts.  Yours will hear how you found fluffy in the woods.

Yes...and I would be proud to say that I helped my community. 

And I am proud of any contributions I make to my nation and community.  I fought the first Gulf War...manning a telephone in Japan.  Was that duty beneath me?  I mean I trained to be a tactical communcations technician.  I don't tell my boss that sorry I don't want to be a job controller because I want to tell my kids I fought in the big war.  No.  I understand how my little job impacted the bigger picture and I am proud of that.  I understand how each little and silly mission makes CAP better and helps our community.  And from our communites point of view...finding fluffy is vastly more important to someone out there than being a target for F-16s (talk about making a silly mission into something bigger than it is!)

Where we differ....is that you thing only the national missions rate your consideration.  I however, know that our community is the house next door and the city over the hill just as much as it is part of our nation.  I want to help everyone...not just the federal government.

[Smokey]

Capt Harris......You win....I surrender....I was wrong......


I will fly missions for anyone, absolutely anyone who will pay the bill.  Fly to find fluffy,   got it. Fly to check on the sheep,  got it.  Fly to check for a good Wal Mart location, got it.   I'm on it....you have shown me the error of my ways.  Oh....that WADS mission to help train Viper pilots to intercept a possible terrorist....I'll have to pass on that...not enough community interest in stopping a terrorist act....and that would benefit the AF, besides I'm too busy looking for fluffy.




I guess flying 200 hours a year on someone else's dime is the way to go. Just call me Trixie, your local whore.

Now...I've got to go.....Santa needs me to scope out a route to all the good CAP member's houses. He said he'd pay well.

[Psicorp]

Do you ever wonder how much out of pocket expenses the original CAP pilots paid in order to fly missions before we became Federally funded and called CAP?    Adjusting for inflation, I'd wager it was quite a bit.   

Ever wonder how much flight time you could pay for if you weren't buying every new uniform and accessory every time the regs changed? 

When I was in a volunteer fire department, every year we'd dress up in santa suits and ride around the community on the fire trucks blasting christmas music and tossing candy to the kids.  Why did we do it?  Public Relations and a chance for the public to see us when we're not racing through town on the way to a fire.   

Maybe looking for a lost dog is "beneath us", but that is the kind of public service that gets notice.   And absolutely, if you can find a lost golden retriever, you can find a lost 5 year old child.    Go ahead and wait for an anti-terrorist mission or a mission that isn't "beneath" you...you'll be waiting a while and you'll be out of practice, if anyone remembers that you're even there by then.

Spot on, Captain Harris.  If you need a Scanner or Radio Operator on a Fluffy/Fido mission, give me a call. 

[RiverAux]

Do you ever wonder how much out of pocket expenses the original CAP pilots paid in order to fly missions before we became Federally funded and called CAP?

Probably not much.  CAP was a federal organization from the start.  They shut down pretty much all private flying other than CAP soon after the Japanese attack so there really wasn't any room for any non-CAP volunteer pilots to do much.  It didn't loosen up again for quite a while.  I know a few states had started to form their own versions of CAP in late 1941  prior to Pearl Harbor but those fairly quickly shut down and/or were absorbed when CAP was created.   

However, I get your larger point but couldn't help but take you literally. 

[lordmonar]

Capt Harris......You win....I surrender....I was wrong......

I will fly missions for anyone, absolutely anyone who will pay the bill.  Fly to find fluffy,   got it. Fly to check on the sheep,  got it.  Fly to check for a good Wal Mart location, got it.   I'm on it....you have shown me the error of my ways.  Oh....that WADS mission to help train Viper pilots to intercept a possible terrorist....I'll have to pass on that...not enough community interest in stopping a terrorist act....and that would benefit the AF, besides I'm too busy looking for fluffy.

I guess flying 200 hours a year on someone else's dime is the way to go. Just call me Trixie, your local whore.

Now...I've got to go.....Santa needs me to scope out a route to all the good CAP member's houses. He said he'd pay well.

Now again you are deliberately mis representing what I have said.  I have never said that we should be doing other missions at the expense of our USAF missions.  No way...no how!

And again...I have never said we should be doing any sort of commercial work (this is in relation to the Wal Mart comment).  I have only said that there are other legitimate customers out there that have money to spend of a flying mission and we would be stupid not to go for it.  And that by advocating that I am not in it just so I can fly for free.  I am in it because I think we should be helping our community at all levels...even if we have to pay for it out of our own pocket.

The WADS mission is an important one...but you can't say that it was a very difficult one...nor can you say that it helped you prepare for the next time a plane crashes or someone is missing.

This entire portion of this thread got off track because you think that anyone looking for more customers is somehow not nearly as committed to our core values as you.  I am only trying to show you that you are wrong.

[lordmonar]

Do you ever wonder how much out of pocket expenses the original CAP pilots paid in order to fly missions before we became Federally funded and called CAP?

Probably not much.  CAP was a federal organization from the start.  They shut down pretty much all private flying other than CAP soon after the Japanese attack so there really wasn't any room for any non-CAP volunteer pilots to do much.  It didn't loosen up again for quite a while.  I know a few states had started to form their own versions of CAP in late 1941  prior to Pearl Harbor but those fairly quickly shut down and/or were absorbed when CAP was created.   

However, I get your larger point but couldn't help but take you literally. 

What about the proto CAP organizations that existed before CAP was formed?  All our history pamphlets seem to say....and on 2 December 1941 CAP was born through the efforts of....there had to be a lot of "flying clubs" around either doing some of this type of work at a local level or practicing for it before they formed CAP. 

[BillB]

CAP was paid during WW II. Members recieved a per diem allowance, but checks were usually late according to "From Maine to Mexico". Members paid for the uniforms and expenses above the per diem allowance, and fuel was furnished. Most all of the operating expenses came from members pockets when USAAC materials, supplies and facilities were not available. If memory serves members got a per diem allowance of $8.50 a day. But it wasn't clear if that was for flight crews or all members taking part in CAP missions.

[Smokey]

Cap Harris,

You win....what else do you want....my first born?

Please go find all the "customers" you want, whoever they are.

you never understood any of my points as they just seemed to go over your head, but I guess that proves your position is better than my .  I surrender.

I will continue to pay for my fun flights and flight proficiency by flying at the aero club. I'm not rich, but my conscience will be intact.

[DNall]

Gees, can I suggest toning it down a bit?

As you know, I don't endorse a lot of non-AF cleared flying, but it has little to do with what those missions are. Some are very noble jobs that need to be done & CAP may well be the best asset to do them, and then some do make the word whore flash thru my mind before I come up with a more tactful way to say it.

My bigger issue is we're doing less of the AF mission, and therefore deserve less of their funding. Meanwhile the AF has done everything in their power to reel CAP in from this slip inot commercial flying. They've dramatically increased the flight training budget over the last few years to make up for the loss of SaR flying. Meanwhile they've put out calls for papers at levels that seem like they are desperately looking for more ways to utilize CAP within the AF familiy, regardless if that includes flying or not.

My problem is one of identity. If people want to go fly any old mission just cause it's a "MISSION" that may help someone somewhere, well that IS a problem. We don't exist to just do any old mission. We exist to help the AF accomplish their congressionally assigned missions, and through that process we help community, state, & nation.

If you'll look around a little harder, there are tens of thousands of flying hours that can be flown under the AF if the requesting agency will follow the right proceedure (AF pays CAP, customer pays AF). Most of the missions I'm tolerant of us flying fall into that category. The ones that make me think about words like hypocracy don't work that way & are very harmful to CAP strategically (even if it gets you a few proficeincy hours locally). There's a very small area of things in the middle that might be okay, but right now we've slipped a long way down this slope & seem to be aiming ever lower, so if it were my call, I'd put on the freeze till things can be re-centered.

I understand we don't all agree on these points, and I have no problem discussing that, but please be respectful.

[RiverAux]

What about the proto CAP organizations that existed before CAP was formed? 

The ones I know about were sponsored by their states, sometimes in conjunction with their State Defense Force organization.  I imagine that it was these organizations that generated the idea to form a national one that became CAP.  There were plenty of flying clubs around, but they weren't doing any public service work that I'm aware of. 

[DNall]

We having that what would happen if CAP went away conversation again? SDFs & state Hwy Patrol Aviation units would fill teh void at State expense w/ federal assistance (grant money & the planes they take away from us). That narrow aspect of it would make it much cheaper on the AF. CP & AE can be delegated & reapportioned among other existing orgs too. What keeps CAP alive (besides tradition) is the synergy (you know as a team it is greater than the sum of its parts)that comes from having each of those things together under one roof. It's a narrow margin though, we have to work hard to stay relevant in the AF household, and the direction we're going isn't doing that, it's just placating & distracting our members in the short-term.

[RiverAux]

We having that what would happen if CAP went away conversation again?

No   we were talking about whether pre-CAP state versions of CAP required members to pay out of their own pocket.  Discussing history, not possible futures.

[ZigZag911]

What keeps CAP alive (besides tradition) is the synergy (you know as a team it is greater than the sum of its parts)that comes from having each of those things together under one roof. It's a narrow margin though, we have to work hard to stay relevant in the AF household, and the direction we're going isn't doing that, it's just placating & distracting our members in the short-term.

I agree completely....what do you see as steps toward getting back on track?