I know... this has nothing to do with CAP. I was watching the Inglorious Basterds and was wondering if the US military has ever worked any units like that outside of the Viet Nam Police Action. The reason I ask here is that CAP really seems to have by some of the best military historians around.
seems like a question that would never generate a response from a person who has btdt.
just throwing that out there.
Vietnam was a "Police Action"? I don't remember ever wearing a badge there. I do recall being in the war there from 1969-1971. I notice that your signature line has both the Iraq and Afghan Service medals on there, were those "Police Actions" also.
Quote from: Cecil DP on May 27, 2010, 01:37:31 PM
Vietnam was a "Police Action"? I don't remember ever wearing a badge there. I do recall being in the war there from 1969-1971. I notice that your signature line has both the Iraq and Afghan Service medals on there, were those "Police Actions" also.
Quote from: Robert Heinlein Starship TrooperThe historians can't seem to settle whether to call this one "The Third Space War" (or the "Fourth"), or whether "The First Interstellar War" fits it better. We just call it "The Bug War" if we call it anything, which we usually don't and in any case the historians date the beginning of "war" after the time I joined my first outfit and ship. Everything up to then and still later were "incidents," "patrols," or "police actions." However, you are just as dead if you buy the farm in an "incident" as you are if you buy it in a declared war."
To answere Robert K's answer....yes the U.S. military has always had some sort of unconventional warfare forces all the way back to the French and Indian wars (which was before the U.S. in fact...but we often trace a lot of our military tradions back to this first "American" war).
BA History, University of Maryland, University College 2005. ;D
The reason I say "Police Action" was that the history books call it a police action... or at least they did when I was a kid. I just din't want to offend anyone by calling it a war. But I guess the offense could go either way. I do still think it was a war.
I was just curious about anything that might have been really controversial that was sanctioned by the US Govt. Like inhumane torture of enemy soldiers.
If you are interested in the insane and wacky things that the military has done, study WWII. You'll find plenty.
And remember that Inglorious Basterds was a work of fiction. Quentin Tarentino's fiction, no less.
So no, Hitler did not die in a theater in Paris.
I know, Inglorious Basterds was totally fiction. That's what makes it so awesome. I personally love the tactic scare the livin [Filter Subversion] out of the hearts and minds of the enemy much more than winning them. I would use the tactic given the opportunity in Iraq and Afghanistan.
That is why we have the Law of Armed Conflict.
Scaring the heck out of people does not mean you will have peace in the end.
Just look at 911....scared the U.S. but did we just stop fighting?
No, 911 did nothing but make us mad. That is because it was an act of cowardice. Now were it that people were scalping our soldiers and maiming them in a very inhumane way instead of attacking civilians that might just drop the morale of our army so low as to make entire units combat ineffective.
Quote from: robert.killion on May 27, 2010, 09:37:54 PMNow were it that people were scalping our soldiers and maiming them in a very inhumane way instead of attacking civilians that might just drop the morale of our army so low as to make entire units combat ineffective.
I'm hoping that I'm reading this wrong. Are you suggesting we adopt similar tactics?
Only if it were done to us first, you know escalation of force. I only jest, it is merely a joke. I am just curious about the actions through history.
why don't you just go back in the Army? You seem to really miss it.
Quote from: cap235629 on May 28, 2010, 01:56:37 AM
why don't you just go back in the Army? You seem to really miss it.
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
Quote from: robert.killion on May 27, 2010, 04:51:36 PM
The reason I say "Police Action" was that the history books call it a police action... or at least they did when I was a kid. I just din't want to offend anyone by calling it a war. But I guess the offense could go either way. I do still think it was a war.
I was just curious about anything that might have been really controversial that was sanctioned by the US Govt. Like inhumane torture of enemy soldiers.
This is one forum where using the leftist description of Vietnam is not apprecaiated. Korea was described as a "Police Action" by the United Nations to justify commiting troops to stop the" illegal" invasion of the South by the North. Again PC BS. Hint, If you're being shot at and wearing a uniform, IT's A WAR!! No matter what others may call it.
Quote from: robert.killion on May 27, 2010, 06:22:36 PM
I know, Inglorious Basterds was totally fiction. That's what makes it so awesome. I personally love the tactic scare the livin [Filter Subversion] out of the hearts and minds of the enemy much more than winning them. I would use the tactic given the opportunity in Iraq and Afghanistan.
The Soviets tried that approach in Afghanistan. Look where it got them...
QuoteQuote from: robert.killion on May 23, 2010, 11:13:51 PM
I am in the same CAP you are.
Robert why are you here? It seems that every post you initiate seems to irritate someone. In my world we call that a troll. By referencing the above quote I am pointing out to my fellow CAPTALKER's who ARE IN FACT members of the Civil Air Patrol, that according to the CAP member search, YOU ARE NOT a member. If I am incorrect then prove me wrong. In the mean time please keep you contentious opinions to yourself. You knew very well what the reaction to words like "police action" would bring. I personally find it offensive and disrespectful to the thousands of Vietnam and Korea Veterans. You post a picture of the CIB on your signature. If you truly earned this award, you have my respect but make sure that you respect those who earned it before you were born.
I only called it a police action because politically correct people want it called that. Me? N, I do not believe it was a police action. I know it was a war. When a soldier is shot at no matter when or where it happens at that moment it is war. I greatly respect those who came before me and gave all they could. I am very grateful for those who gave it all.
I really wish I were still in the Army, However I have one good eye and a good chunk of my mind (PTSD) to the Army. If I could I would be right back in. I have been to Iraq and Afghanistan and I loved every moment that I served. I loved the fact that I served my country and I like to think that I gave just a little back to those who gave before me.
Please don't read and assume that you know or understand me wholly. You don't, and most likely not even most people who really do know me will know it all. I say things like police action because I know that is how many would call it who are being "politically correct". I mean absolutely no offense. I just ask a question because I love history especially of our military.
I'll be leaving now.
Ok so i can't figure out how to delete my account
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on May 28, 2010, 07:13:35 PM
Ok so i can't figure out how to delete my account
You can't. If you don't want to participate just don't come back. The better alternative would be to learn from this and move forward.
Why would you use a perversion of language like "police action" to satisfy the PC crowd? I'm not nor have ever been in the military and will never be in for medical reasons and I consider calling Vietnam a "police action" to be offensive. It is disrespectful to my family and friends that were over there. Political correctness is an attempt by cowards to change reality into something that it's not.
This is from Wikipedia, not that I agree but this is how it is explained and this is why some call it a police action.
Police action in military/security studies and international relations is a euphemism for a military action undertaken without a formal declaration of war.
Since World War II, formal declarations of war have increasingly become a rarity. Instead, nations involved in military conflict (especially the major-power nations) often attempt to justify their conduct by fighting the war under the auspices of a "police action".
The 1948 Indian annexation of the Hyderabad State, codenamed Operation Polo, was referred to as a police action by the government.
The Korean War, the Vietnam War, and the Kargil War were undeclared wars and hence are sometimes described as police actions.
The Soviet war in Afghanistan was an undeclared war and hence also could be described as a police action, especially since the initial troop deployments into Afghanistan were at the request of the Afghan government.
Again, not my words, but the words of Wikipedia and some history books. I DO STILL BELIEVE VIET NAM TO BE A WAR.
:o Let it go and move on........
Quote from: Cecil DP on May 28, 2010, 03:51:45 AM
Quote from: robert.killion on May 27, 2010, 04:51:36 PM
The reason I say "Police Action" was that the history books call it a police action... or at least they did when I was a kid. I just din't want to offend anyone by calling it a war. But I guess the offense could go either way. I do still think it was a war.
I was just curious about anything that might have been really controversial that was sanctioned by the US Govt. Like inhumane torture of enemy soldiers.
This is one forum where using the leftist description of Vietnam is not apprecaiated. Korea was described as a "Police Action" by the United Nations to justify commiting troops to stop the" illegal" invasion of the South by the North. Again PC BS. Hint, If you're being shot at and wearing a uniform, IT's A WAR!! No matter what others may call it.
What exactly is leftist about it? I'm more liberal than not, and I don't consider it a police action.
I tend to have neoliberal conservative views and see no offensiveness as calling the Vietnam War a "police action". Anybody who gets bent out of shape because of a label needs to take a step back and think about whether substituting their label for another is worth the bickering that will result.
In any case, getting back to the topic at hand, there have been quite a number of covert espionage, sabotage, and even assassination attempts of foreign countries and nationals before, during, and even after World War II. One of my favorites was the CIA's Operation Mongoose which included a plot to assassinate Fidel Castro by planting a box of exploding cigars in his office. Of course, the plot failed but it was a pretty crafty idea.
Quote from: N Harmon on May 29, 2010, 05:20:16 PM
I tend to have neoliberal conservative views and see no offensiveness as calling the Vietnam War a "police action". Anybody who gets bent out of shape because of a label needs to take a step back and think about whether substituting their label for another is worth the bickering that will result.
In any case, getting back to the topic at hand, there have been quite a number of covert espionage, sabotage, and even assassination attempts of foreign countries and nationals before, during, and even after World War II. One of my favorites was the CIA's Operation Mongoose which included a plot to assassinate Fidel Castro by planting a box of exploding cigars in his office. Of course, the plot failed but it was a pretty crafty idea.
Everybody sing " We three men of CIA are, trying to light Castro's cigars, they were loaded, they exploded....Boom! We two men of CIA are....
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on May 27, 2010, 06:22:36 PM
I know, Inglorious Basterds was totally fiction. That's what makes it so awesome. I personally love the tactic scare the livin [Filter Subversion] out of the hearts and minds of the enemy much more than winning them. I would use the tactic given the opportunity in Iraq and Afghanistan.
You must've been a private and a stupid one at that. Scaring the locals will only make them hate you. Those who hate you will either actively or passively work against you. If you lose the populace, you lose the war. In the American Revolution only 1/3 of colonialists were on our side. Another third didn't care, and the last third were pro-British. Where do you think we won the war? In keeping that middle third either neutral or at least not helping the enemy.
Oh yeah, go ahead and call VN a "police action" at the local VFW and see if you don't get your ears pinned back.
Unconventional warfare? There's only one unit in the military that does that - Army Special Forces. If the unit doesn't wear a green beret, it doesn't do UW. Period.
Blisterheads who want to scare the (whatever) out of the locals will lose this war for us (sounds like that's what you did). The war will be won with people sitting with the village chief, sitting cross legged on the floor eating goat, and learning to trust one another.
There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding here. The premise of "Inglorious Basterds" was not of a clandestine force terrorizing the local populace, but rather a force terrorizing an occupying army. The premise was that of a special service force made up entirely of jewish soldiers who organize what their commander called "an apache resistance" (think Geronimo's resistance of Mexico and later the United States).
Just about everything in the movie is a fiction, although there actually was an all-jewish commando unit. And there were clandestine units throughout Europe. They weren't scalping Nazis though, mostly blowing up oil refineries and the like.
As for emulating the movie's tactics in Iraq and Afghanistan? I do not see how anybody would consider in legal.
Quote from: Gunner C on May 29, 2010, 09:20:25 PM
The war will be won with people sitting with the village chief, sitting cross legged on the floor eating goat, and learning to trust one another.
Absolutely amazing what can be done when you take time to see things from the other culture's point of view....
Quote from: shorning on May 30, 2010, 02:20:23 AM
Quote from: Gunner C on May 29, 2010, 09:20:25 PM
The war will be won with people sitting with the village chief, sitting cross legged on the floor eating goat, and learning to trust one another.
Absolutely amazing what can be done when you take time to see things from the other culture's point of view....
Recommended reading:
"Learning to Eat Soup with a Knife" by Nagl (The title alludes to a quote by T.E. Lawrence, Lawrence of Arabia, about the difficulty of fighting guerrilla warfare.)
"The Defense of Jisr Al-Doreaa" by Burgoyne and Marckwardt, which is an update of "The Defense of Hill 781" by McDonough, which, in turn, updated the classic "The Defence of Duffer's Drift" by Swinton.
"Learning" contrasts the successful counterinsurgency during the Malay Emergency with the unsuccessful one in Viet Nam, while "Defense" speaks directly to the point made by both GunnerC and Shorning directly above.
Nagl is a retired Army lieutenant colonel while both Burgoyne and Marckwardt were both Army captains with two tours each in Iraq when "Defense" was published.
I've never heard the term "police action" used in any other context other than the Korean War and was pretty sure that it was just a term of convenience used by the government at the time to account for the legal basis behind what was being done under the auspices of the UN. Never heard it applied to Vietnam and I'm pretty sure the liberals of the day were the ones calling it a war and that it was the government using other terms for it for a while.
Its a common practice.
Id really love to say something to you, but since im only C/A1C i can't
*whisper* (jerk)
And if I'm right at first we were only there to advise the South Vietnamese, and eventually it was a war.