We recently have had two cadets join, one with ADD and one with ADHD. The cadet with ADD has it under relative control, but our cadet with ADHD is not doing well. He is medicated, but has a ridiculously short attention span. We cannot get him to stand at attention (or parade rest, or anything else that involves standing still, focusing, etc.
Any tips on how to deal with this. He is also 12, and very immature...
Maybe CAP isn't for him at this point in his life. Most sqdns don't have the training and resources to deal with a cadet with poor control of this problem. Is it fair to the other cadets to devote a disproportionate portion of sqdn resources to one person? This situation has the potential to cause major disruption and morale probs for your other cadets. Why set this kid up for failure by having him in a program with expectations that he apparently isn't able to attempt at this time?
Second.
Though it's not fair to discriminate against the kid for his problem, I think a meeting with his parents explaining that, at this point, the cadet program may not be a good fit for him. Perhaps again in a few years once some of the maturity starts to kick in. Otherwise, it'll just be a drain on unit personnel/resources and a disruption to those who are there to participate in the program
Rock and a hard place...
On one hand it is much easier to talk with the parents and assist them in arriving at the conclusions that "little jimmy" isn't ready for this yet.
On the other hand we are bound by accepted nondiscrimination policies. So, if we tell him he cannot stay and play, and Mother and Father fight it, we can have a potentially serious issue on our hands.
I hate to sound like a jerk, but....
You should have had a serious talk with the parents before any papers were signed about this.
It should have been made very clear what would be expected of this kid and did they, the parents think that he could handle it.
A suggestion of waiting a year or so until he was a bit more mature would have been very approperate if you guys thought there was going to be a problem.
One really big question is, does this cadet really want to be in CAP, or is it the parents who want him in.
If they don't wanna be there, then it's not going to be a good time for anyone.
Quote from: IceNine on May 14, 2008, 03:33:58 AMOn the other hand we are bound by accepted nondiscrimination policies. So, if we tell him he cannot stay and play, and Mother and Father fight it, we can have a potentially serious issue on our hands.
Not really. There is a
major difference between non-discrimination and medical care. We are bound by non-discrimination policies. We are not required to provide care or behavioral training to someone with an existing
medical condition. Far different worlds.
Tell the parents that we lack the proper professional training to assist the young man. Be straightforward and polite. A simple "We're sorry, but we don't have the training or resources to assist your son" will go a long way. Above all, be polite, no matches over it.
I once had a family of 3 boys, then their father, then their mother join. All 3 kids, the parents claimed, were ADHD/ADD. All were on Ritalin and the parents should have been too. I actually had to tell the mom to stop coming to meetings because she was just as much of a distraction to the entire squadron as her sons. At least the dad was into flying (observer) stuff.
I told the parents I was going to treat their kids no different than I would treat any cadet. If a cadet is being disruptive, playing around or otherwise being a space cadet, I'll address it. If a talkin' to doesn't fix it, then they'll be sent out of the room. If that didn't fix it, a talkin' to the parents with the cadet present. If that doesn't work, suspend them for 3 meetings.
Once, I had to tell the parents to have their oldest take a break for 3 weeks. Other than that, I think they acted like 12, 14, 15, 17, year olds. Had all of them in CAP up until they graduated high school. The worst was the oldest who somehow got into the Army Reserves as a Generator Repair Technician and came back after AIT telling the cadets, in my absence, that he was in Afghanistan killing terrorists with the SEALs and that his buddy got killed and he saved his first sergeant. <<<---- I'm not making this up. So he tried to come back as a senior member and I told him he's full of poop and to not come back, ever.
Middle kid went into the Air Force as a TACP.
Not sure what happened to the youngest.
Before you start talking about the kid not coming back, try finding out if there is anything that you can do to handle the behavior.
We have a kid with ADHD in our squadron, he is medicated and has a short attention span. His parents were up front with us about it so we inquired if there were any "techniques" that would help retain his attention when needed.
The cadet himself even offered some pointers on how to "bring him back." He apologized (which he didn't need to because it really isn't something he can help) but said he really wanted to do this and knew he had some difficulties but would try really hard.
They offered a few hints about keeping him engaged with what is going on. Fortunately, he loves drill and finds it to be a big challenge, it's the classroom settings that are a bit harder, but throw in a hands on activity and he's good.
I would inquire about some simple things to reel him back in, I'm sure he knows some and I'm sure the parents do to. If we can get a partially mentally-challenged kid with epilepsy through encampment, we should be able to "handle" some ADHD.
If the worst thing that he does is not stand at attention for long periods of time, I don't see that as that big of a deal. Every cadet goes through some periods where they fidgit, etc. A few "corrections" here and there shouldn't be too much.
Good luck though.
I will ask about the attention span.. It's kind of wierd. He will be sitting in a class, taking notes, doing great, then all of a sudden he will just start doodling in his notebook, or he will interrupt the class with a little story that may or may not be very relevent to the topic at hand.
We have dealt with a difficult cadet before. About a year ago a cadet joined with a minor learning disability. He could never get his uniform straight, sucked at drill, couldn't figure out customs and courtesies, etc. Now, with some mentoring and a lot of patience he is on his way to being one of our better cadets. He is wearing his uniform properly, is adequate at drill, and is generally doing fairly well. He just passed his Arnold last night too. So I know it can be done.
"There is a major difference between non-discrimination and medical care. We are bound by non-discrimination policies. We are not required to provide care or behavioral training to someone with an existing medical condition. Far different worlds."
Well not so fast....we are not being asked to treat ADHD, we are being asked to work with a young person with a disability...far different worlds. As has been pointed out when we discussed the BOG firing the National Commander even though the regs say the National Board should have, federal law beats CAP regs....my point is does the Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990 apply to us? I would think yes.
To those who think we should run this kid off.....would you say to a 14 yr old in a wheelchair sorry you can't stand up for opening formation so there is no place in CAP for you? Would you say to a blind 12 yr old sorry our books don't come in brail? That would be sad to turn a blind kid away from things like COS, CLA and other leadership schools....never know if he/she might grow up to be Governor of a large state like New York. ADD and ADHD are considered by most to be learning disabilities. Lets not act like this kid is a "bad behaved trouble maker".
For those who say we don't have the training, you are most likely correct.... maybe it is time to buy one less G1000 airplane and put some money into training adult leaders of cadets. Lets face it our in house youth leader training is very very weak.
I for one do not want to belong to a group that treats disabled young people like second class people.
Quote from: John Bryan on May 14, 2008, 04:46:42 PM[M]y point is does the Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990 apply to us? I would think yes.
Interesting question, but I'm not sure why it would.
The ADA (http://www.ada.gov/pubs/ada.htm), by its own terms, applies to employers, state and local governments, and public accomodations.
It does not appear to cover volunteer groups, clubs, or associations.
And the Executive Branch of the Federal government is not covered by the ADA (but may be covered by other "ADA-like" regulations.)
CAP, Inc is certainly required to comply with various ADA requirements for our paid employees at NHQ and in the field, but nothing I've seen would suggest that cadet members are covered by the ADA.
What makes you think the ADA would apply to cadets?
Ned Lee
Former CAP Legal Officer
ADA does not apply to CAP. We're a federal corporation under direction of congress w/ AF oversight. As a volunteer org, it does not apply. As a federal entity it does not apply. CAP as a corp has chosen to voluntarily comply. We are also bound by certain AF & DoD regs on the issue. All that basically means the dollar figure will be lower in judgment than normal circumstances & we might be able to weasel out of a few cases.
It's a tough spot cause we really can't comply all the time when we have no funding at the local level & mostly live off the charity of others. We have very limited personnel & training resources so it's hard to actually address special needs. We do what we can, but there will always be cases where people don't feel comfortable & choose to leave the setting.
Does ADA apply to joining the Branches or the National Guard?
I think in our case, if we take each perspective on a case by case basis. I'm saying this as I'm diagnosed with ADD. Although there is a school of thought that it's all ADHD now. But that aside, I know from my experience in JROTC that sometimes the discipline of either program can be of help to a young person that has attention issues. There are some we can help and some we can't.
CAPR 36-2 in part:
a. The Constitution of the Civil Air Patrol, Article VII, states, "Discrimination based on race, sex, age, color, religion, national origin, or disability is prohibited."
I would propose that discrimination against a disability, even ADHD, is a BIG no-no and better be handled with kid (no pun intended) gloves.
The Americans w/ disabilities act does not apply to the military. Obviously you can't be an infantryman in a wheel chair - though I could have used one after a few marches.
Conditions such as ADD & ADHA are disqualifying. Taking medications for such conditions after age 12 is DQ. You can get waivers, if the condition no longer exists & you have not been on meds for over a year.
The rules I mentioned apply more to civilian employees & public access buildings being handicap accessible.
Quote from: capchiro on May 14, 2008, 06:54:22 PM
CAPR 36-2 in part:
a. The Constitution of the Civil Air Patrol, Article VII, states, "Discrimination based on race, sex, age, color, religion, national origin, or disability is prohibited."
I would propose that discrimination against a disability, even ADHD, is a BIG no-no and better be handled with kid (no pun intended) gloves.
I'm not siding either way, but I'm wondering what the definition of disability qualifies as in this scenario. (Sorry, I'm a bright-line type of person). I've heard of times where we do not let cadets fly in a glider at a specific activity because their weight puts the glider over its weight and balance. I also know we don't waive cadets PT because of obesity (though I have heard of [not witnessed] doctors doing so). Addionally, either the amount of ADHD/ADD has increased drastically with mine and younger generations, or we just like over diagnosing and over medicating kids.
That's sort of like saying that there has been a significant increase in the number of cancer patients over the last 100 years. If you don't understand something enough to know what it is, you can't diagnose it.
Look at PTSD, it has gained quite a bit of awareness since the 1980's after people realized what the heck was going on. However, I do think that some kids are being medicated that shouldn't.
On the waiving CPFT for obesity, that is one of those things that is specifically spelled out in the PT pamphlet:
QuoteCategory II - Temporarily Restricted. A cadet in this category is determined by the squadron commander to
be temporarily restricted from parts or all of the CPFT due to a condition or injury of a temporary nature.
Temporary conditions include broken bones, post-operative recovery, obesity, and illness. Cadets normally
will not exceed six months in this category without reevaluation.
I don't know that there is a specific definition or list of what consitutes a "disability," so I suppose we could use the same logic that Justice Potter Stewart used for obscenity - "I know it when I see it."
Quote from: kpetersen on May 14, 2008, 09:38:50 PM
just like over diagnosing and over medicating kids.
That seems to be the case.
There is a medical def for obesity. Fat body gets out of PT = bad. Fat kid damages knees trying to make fixed run times = worse. I'd rather them lose the weight while doing moderate exercise building up to the standards than cause real long-term harm.
Disability is always going to get the widest possible definition. You still have to keep your program operating as well as possible and stay safe for them & others. If it crosses one of those lines then you can trim back a bit. All this needs to happen prior to joining, not after they're in the system.
Kids with ADD and ADHD can benefit tremendously from the structure of a program such as CAP. I recommend doing all you can to work with the youngsters in question. You may very well be the person who makes all the difference in the world to them. Kids with ADD and ADHD have some challenges to overcome if they are to be successful; they can use your help.
I have two sons who have been diagnosed with ADD. My oldest son is a J-ROTC cadet at the local high school. J-ROTC has inspired him in ways nothing else has. It hasn't been a smooth ride, but it has been worth it. My youngest son is a CAP and J-ROTC cadet and was diagnosed with ADD just two weeks ago. Almost a year into his CAP experience he doesn't have many accomplishments under his belt. Now that we know what we are tackling I hope he will benefit from cadet programs like his brother has.
Parenting teens with ADD can be frustrating and challenging. As a leader of cadets I watch other kids excel in ways my boys don't (so far). But I'm not giving up and neither are their other leaders. After all, we aren't providing medical care, we are mentoring them. I am thankful for the opportunities they have in CAP and J-ROTC. Their chances of joining the military are slim, but there are plenty of other reasons to participate in a cadet program.
For what it's worth, I was an ADD skeptic until my son was diagnosed. We didn't want to believe it then. Experience has proven the diagnosis accurate. When I learned about my youngest a few weeks ago I was surprised again. It displayed differently in each of them. Don't lump all the kids with ADD or ADHD into the same stereotype.
Finally, there are plenty of people without ADD or ADHD conduct themselves far worse than anything I've seen from ADD/ADHD folks I've met.
I for one don't agree with lumping obesity into CAT 2 TEMP Restrictions.
I don't have it anymore, but did the old PT booklet specifically outline that in order to receive a milestone award (Mitchell etc) you had to pass the PT test. And for those that were medically incapable of passing the test due to being in a category, it was just TOO BAD?? I seem to recall that. It has been like 12 years though since I read it.
As far as letting the fat kids "Category out" of doing PT....thats just promoting their condition. If they are fearful they will bust a knee on the mile run (1 mile), then they can walk it. If they are afraid of getting a hernia from doing the sit-up, then they can sit in the up position while everyone else does the event. If they are afraid of pulling a back muscle doing the sit and reach, they can just sit there. If they are afraid of breaking a sweat doing push-ups then they can just stay in the up position while everyone else completes the event (or let their stomachs hold them up).
Trust me, the FAT Kids do more physically to get and eat candy, cakes and cookies during the day than is generally known. Walking to the refrigerator (although tiring at times) is physical exercises, and I can't accept that they can't walk one mile.
Nothing makes me more upset than a Fat person saying how their weight effects (affects) their daily life, but they have no plan on how to correct it.
How about....wake up an hour earlier, and go for a walk. OR during your lunch break eat your Big Mac while walking around the office. OR go see a nutritionist and get on a diet.
I have nothing against FAT people. My family is fat. I was hugely FAT. I work hard at making sure I don't get that way again. Sometimes I slip up, and gain 5 pounds because I get lazy, but I get back into action and lose the weight.
I am so very accommodating to my FAT Soldiers, because I know how very difficult it is to lose the weight. I will provide them with the coaching they need to lose the weight, but it is up to them to carry out the plan. I usually give them 6 months to get down to an agreeable weight (in accordance with Army regs and MD's opinion). It may not be the Army's allowable weight, but we then work on a new plan to lose even more weight. However, I will be the first person to flag a soldier and get him or her discharged if they fail at the plan.
Sorry for the rant, but I just have a very strong opinion about obesity in this country.
Back to ADD/ADHD......
I say as long as they don't cause any more disruption than any other Cadet, there is no issue here. However, I am no specially trained ADD/ADHD counselor or teacher, I have no guidance to give them in dealing with their condition, and will be the first person to confront the parents, and see if the parents can correct any issues.
Quote from: mikeylikey on May 15, 2008, 05:07:22 AM
I don't have it anymore, but did the old PT booklet specifically outline that in order to receive a milestone award (Mitchell etc) you had to pass the PT test. And for those that were medically incapable of passing the test due to being in a category, it was just TOO BAD?? I seem to recall that. It has been like 12 years though since I read it.
As far as letting the fat kids "Category out" of doing PT....thats just promoting their condition. If they are fearful they will bust a knee on the mile run (1 mile), then they can walk it. If they are afraid of getting a hernia from doing the sit-up, then they can sit in the up position while everyone else does the event. If they are afraid of pulling a back muscle doing the sit and reach, they can just sit there. If they are afraid of breaking a sweat doing push-ups then they can just stay in the up position while everyone else completes the event (or let their stomachs hold them up).
Trust me, the FAT Kids do more physically to get and eat candy, cakes and cookies during the day than is generally known. Walking to the refrigerator (although tiring at times) is physical exercises, and I can't accept that they can't walk one mile.
Nothing makes me more upset than a Fat person saying how their weight effects (affects) their daily life, but they have no plan on how to correct it.
How about....wake up an hour earlier, and go for a walk. OR during your lunch break eat your Big Mac while walking around the office. OR go see a nutritionist and get on a diet.
I have nothing against FAT people. My family is fat. I was hugely FAT. I work hard at making sure I don't get that way again. Sometimes I slip up, and gain 5 pounds because I get lazy, but I get back into action and lose the weight.
I am so very accommodating to my FAT Soldiers, because I know how very difficult it is to lose the weight. I will provide them with the coaching they need to lose the weight, but it is up to them to carry out the plan. I usually give them 6 months to get down to an agreeable weight (in accordance with Army regs and MD's opinion). It may not be the Army's allowable weight, but we then work on a new plan to lose even more weight. However, I will be the first person to flag a soldier and get him or her discharged if they fail at the plan.
Sorry for the rant, but I just have a very strong opinion about obesity in this country.
Back to ADD/ADHD......
I say as long as they don't cause any more disruption than any other Cadet, there is no issue here. However, I am no specially trained ADD/ADHD counselor or teacher, I have no guidance to give them in dealing with their condition, and will be the first person to confront the parents, and see if the parents can correct any issues.
why would you say things like that. yea u have noting against fat people i find the fact that you said that fat people can still do the things that their 180 pound counterpart can do. i find the way you worded your post to be Mean to people who are fat. i understand your point that you have noting against fat people. me being fat make my life a live hell but that does not stop me from doing things in CAP so what that that they are obesity , i weight 220 pounds sand have trouble doing to mile run but i still do it my best time was 8:20 or around their. i to have ADHD but don't take meds. my mom who is a nurse is against give med to kid Like ADHD Meds i sorry i can't run a 6 min. mile like the other kid in my sqdn sorry that a can't get past A1C because i can past my PT test. i missed encampment because i could not make it to SSGT so what if i can do it i still find thing i can do like making powerpoint for GK or use the radio or flying i' sixteen and can't do was my 180 pound counter part can do
Thank Cody
PS Having ADHD does not stop me from have fun
Cody, I am sure that Mikey did not mean to be mean. A lot of people don't understand obesity and the differing causes of obesity. Not all obesity is a just a matter of having a stronger will power. Mikey says he used to be fat and a lot of people that have overcome a personal hardship become intolerant of others in a like predicament. Medicine certainly doesn't have the answers to obesity or they wouldn't resort to life threatening surgery to overcome morbid obesity. I appreciate what your mother is trying to do in keeping you off of medication if at all possible. She is in the medical field and has seen the side-effects of medication and over-medication. Interestingly, a possible side-effect of Ritalin is hyperactivity. Go figure. I do think we have over diagnosed a lot of children today with ADHD and ADD when they used to be considered 100% boys or girls. It is a child's job to be active and inattentive. That is how they learn. Due to Spock's book on no corporal punishment and the intervention of social services into family matters, a highly spirited youngster that at one time would have calmed down by a little rear-end warming is now called ADHD and ADD and given medication to break his/her spirit. I apologise for Mikey's seemingly mean comments and ask that you and others reading this not take them personal. Just keep on keeping on and stay with the program, we are glad and proud to have you. By the time you are Mikey's age, you might weigh 175 pounds and then again you might not. Worth is not determined by skinniness. I dare say that Schwartzkopf may have been close to being over the weight limits and may have had a hard time doing a six minute mile, but he was a great leader and his men loved him.
Quote from: capchiro on May 15, 2008, 01:13:18 PM
. I dare say that Schwartzkopf may have been close to being over the weight limits and may have had a hard time doing a six minute mile, but he was a great leader and his men loved him.
he was a great leader just like i hope that someday i will too to people under my command or furter cadet and hope to god that when i do join the AirForce as a Sertitly forces i will be able to do a six min. mile and i sorry to i toke out my fastion on Mikey and hope that he not upset with me and sorry to captalk too
^ Never upset. Sorry if what I wrote upset you.
Quote from: lilred36781 on May 15, 2008, 12:26:13 PMi missed encampment because i could not make it to SSGT
Why would you miss encampment based on your grade?
Like I said, temporary profile (6mo) so they can get the weight off safely rather than try to make a test the next month & end up on jacked knees & stress fractures that become long-term limitations.
Far as being mean about fat kids, get over it. I'm sorry you got problems with your weight, be they genetic or behavioral. Workout hard & overcome it. That's part of what the program is teaching is to face hard things & become a better person by overcoming that adversity thru hard work & tenacity. I can promise you I HATE with a freakin passion PT. More than anything I HATE running & I'm bad at it. It's a struggle for me to maintain the standard required of me by the Army, but I do it. I don't like it & I don't want to, but I endure the pain, sweat, & near heart attacks to keep at that standard. Being able to run at that speed doesn't make me a better soldier. Facing that thing I hate & staying ahead of that thing I'm bad at, those things make me a better person.
That's the standard, and there's no excuse for not meeting it. If any cadet can't get that done in a reasonable timeframe, then they are failing to progress & don't belong in the program. They should be counseled & given the opportunity to correct their behavior, but eventually shown the door if they aren't willing to man up.
Quote from: Eclipse on May 15, 2008, 09:54:45 PM
Quote from: lilred36781 on May 15, 2008, 12:26:13 PMi missed encampment because i could not make it to SSGT
Why would you miss encampment based on your grade?
because i try to make it to staff
Quote from: lilred36781 on May 15, 2008, 10:54:13 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on May 15, 2008, 09:54:45 PM
Quote from: lilred36781 on May 15, 2008, 12:26:13 PMi missed encampment because i could not make it to SSGT
Why would you miss encampment based on your grade?
because i try to make it to staff
So you have done a doolie encampment?
Also, is there a medical reason you are obese, or is just a poor diet, lack of exercise type thing? I am also severely overweight, but, I'm eating less and exercising more, and lo and behold, I'm starting to lose weight.
If it is a valid medical issue you might consider getting a medical waiver for the parts of the CPFT you cannot do, namely the run.
Quote from: DC on May 16, 2008, 02:40:04 AMSo have done a doolie basic encampment?
How about if we stop perpetuating this silly term in regards to basics cadets at a CAP encampment?
The only remote connection is its use for a first-year freshman at the USAFA. Since a basic encampment is nothing remotely analogous to the USAFA, its just silly.
Tags - MIKE
QuoteQuote from: Eclipse on May 16, 2008, 02:57:32 AM
Quote from: DC on May 16, 2008, 02:40:04 AM
So have done a doolie basic encampment?
How about if we stop perpetuating this silly term in regards to basics cadets at a CAP encampment?
The only remote connection is its use for a first-year freshman at the USAFA. Since a basic encampment is nothing remotely analogous to the USAFA, its just silly.
Please forgive me for using a term that is in wide spread use. And what does your personal preference have to do with dealing with cadets with ADHD, or at this point, obesity. Seriously, can we get through one thread without people getting flamed for using a common term that one person doesn't like, or, dare I say it, merely mentioning uniform accoutriements. Is a civilized, mature discussion that difficult to achieve?
Went to PM...
Quote from: DC on May 16, 2008, 02:40:04 AM
Also, is there a medical reason you are obese, or is just a poor diet, lack of exercise type thing? I am also severely overweight, but, I'm eating less and exercising more, and lo and behold, I'm starting to lose weight.
If it is a valid medical issue you might consider getting a medical waiver for the parts of the CPFT you cannot do, namely the run.
Are you sure you lost it? I think I found some of it :( >:D
How about captalk starts this program. Lead by example:
President's Challenge (http://www.presidentschallenge.org/)
http://www.presidentschallenge.org/group_admin/start_group.aspx (http://www.presidentschallenge.org/group_admin/start_group.aspx)
^ All you have to do is eat less calories than you burn. Search Google for "calorie calculator" and "food calorie content". It is not rocket science, although some here would have you believe it is.
As far as obesity being a medical condition, it still is a result of eating too many calories and not burning enough.
I hate it when people say "I'm fat because of a medical condition. NO......your FAT because you continue to eat too much food. There is NO medical condition that magically makes you fat, you have to eat food which turns into fat. If you have a condition which may make you more susceptible to being fat, STOP EATING. Go on a low calorie intake plan with a doctors guidance, and I guarantee you will lose weight.
Quote from: flyerthom on May 16, 2008, 04:14:08 PM
Quote from: DC on May 16, 2008, 02:40:04 AM
Also, is there a medical reason you are obese, or is just a poor diet, lack of exercise type thing? I am also severely overweight, but, I'm eating less and exercising more, and lo and behold, I'm starting to lose weight.
If it is a valid medical issue you might consider getting a medical waiver for the parts of the CPFT you cannot do, namely the run.
Are you sure you lost it? I think I found some of it :( >:D
How about captalk starts this program. Lead by example:
President's Challenge (http://www.presidentschallenge.org/)
http://www.presidentschallenge.org/group_admin/start_group.aspx (http://www.presidentschallenge.org/group_admin/start_group.aspx)
LOL.
CAP cadets are encouraged to participate in the President's Challenge, both individually and to shoot for the group awards. See page 29 of CAPP 52-18.
Is this thread about fat kids or ADHD? I'm confused...
I've actually never met an ADHD kid that was fat...all that energy I suppose.
^ Sorry it is about ADD/ADHD.
I just watched a program on ADHD and ADD on the Discovery Health Channel (yeah, I'm a DORK). There was one woman on there that said ADD and ADHD was invented by the pharmaceutical industry to push drugs. It was a very compelling rant she had. I can see where some Doctors may be pushing ADD/ADHD when presented by a few characteristics of the disease, but in reality the child does not even have it. They also said that once on the drugs to help with ADD/ADHD, it actually makes the disease worse if the child should be taken off the meds, and will create the disease in the child if the child did not have it to begin with.
At the end one guy said that these problems are actually a result of the parents taking drugs before having the kid. Either illegal drugs or even aspirin and Tylenol can lead to changes in the undeveloped baby. (I am not sure if I believed that or not)
Late to the party...
I have two boys with ADHD, one is a c/A1C right now. We're working on both being off meds (Adderal XR) at the moment. They have some good days and some bad days.
Here's what going on in the ADHD brain. There is actually a lack of seratonin in the brain (that's why all the meds are stimulants) and the mind jumps from place to place to find seratonin. It also engages in "stim" activity, trying to increase those levels. When you see ADHD kids fidgiting, you're seeing them "stim".
One thing you can do is help the cadet find less noticeable stim routines while in formation. I have a habit of stimming by tapping my thumb to the pads of my finger joints in different patterns. He could do something like this while at attention.
I'm going to echo those that mentioned the structure and regimen of the cadet program helping them. Since I was ADD before they had a word for it, I never took any meds (school would have dramatically different if they had understood me the way they are understanding kids with it now...) and I've learned to train myself over the years to overcome the effects. If you keep him in and are patient with him, CAP might be the thing that makes a hug difference in his success later in life by giving him the mental training he needs.
Quote from: jayburns22 on May 17, 2008, 08:28:12 PM
Is this thread about fat kids or ADHD? I'm confused...
I've actually never met an ADHD kid that was fat...all that energy I suppose.
i weight 220 and have ADHD or i did have i think it the meads the make a kid have to much energy and yes you have never met me i both fat and have ADHD
Quote from: Eclipse on May 16, 2008, 02:57:32 AM
Quote from: DC on May 16, 2008, 02:40:04 AMSo have done a doolie basic encampment?
How about if we stop perpetuating this silly term in regards to basics cadets at a CAP encampment?
The only remote connection is its use for a first-year freshman at the USAFA. Since a basic encampment is nothing remotely analogous to the USAFA, its just silly.
Tags - MIKE
:clap:
Quote from: Ned on May 14, 2008, 05:29:31 PM
Quote from: John Bryan on May 14, 2008, 04:46:42 PM[M]y point is does the Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990 apply to us? I would think yes.
Interesting question, but I'm not sure why it would.
The ADA (http://www.ada.gov/pubs/ada.htm), by its own terms, applies to employers, state and local governments, and public accomodations.
It does not appear to cover volunteer groups, clubs, or associations.
And the Executive Branch of the Federal government is not covered by the ADA (but may be covered by other "ADA-like" regulations.)
You are correct in that the Executive branch is not covered by the ADA, but it is covered by the Rehabilitation Act of 1973 and in particular section 504 which is quite clear on the subject:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_504_of_the_Rehabilitation_Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_504_of_the_Rehabilitation_Act)
However, the term "disability" is defined by the Act as a person that has a physical or mental impairment that substantially limits a major life activity.
So the question becomes, does ADD/ADHD qualify? I don't think the answer is as simple as having a diagnosis of the condition. The person having the disorder would need to have it so severely as to meet the definition of "disability" under the act and that can be a pretty difficult bar to hurdle.
However, from the sound of this particular instance, the parents have already come forth and identified the condition and it could be construed that they have already requested "reasonable accommodation" based on the condition and that CAP has already accepted and accommodated the cadet. This may obligate CAP to continue to accommodate the cadet.
That's just my $0.02 worth. I'm no lawyer, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
Actually I have an extra duty as a federal EEO counselor, so I do have a bit of experience with these issues. The legal questions are best avoided if at all possible, because when you go down that road, nobody wins (except the lawyers).
QuoteI'm no lawyer, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
;D Sorry, couldn't resist...
Having had to deal with this situation on a number of occasions, I can tell you what I was told by NHQ lawyers about
3 years ago.
As written and defined, the ADA does not apply to Civil Air Patrol, however our leaders saw fit to sign a letter to congress indicating that while they are not bound by the law, CAP would follow it anyway.
Make of that what you will, and if anyone can substantiate different than I wouldn't argue it.
Quote from: Eclipse on May 25, 2008, 01:32:32 AM
Having had to deal with this situation on a number of occasions, I can tell you what I was told by NHQ lawyers about
3 years ago.
As written and defined, the ADA does not apply to Civil Air Patrol, however our leaders saw fit to sign a letter to congress indicating that while they are not bound by the law, CAP would follow it anyway.
Make of that what you will, and if anyone can substantiate different than I wouldn't argue it.
The Rehabilitation Act is the law CAP is bound by.
CAPR 36-2
...
e. DOD Directive 1020.1, Nondiscrimination on the Basis of Handicap in Programs and
Activities Assisted or Conducted by the Department of Defense, is the basic implementing directive for DOD compliance with the Rehabilitation Act of 1973, Section 504. It states that no qualified handicapped person in the United States shall on the basis of handicap be excluded from participation in, denied the benefit of, or otherwise subjected to discrimination under any program or activity conducted by the Federal Government or receiving Federal financial assistance.
^ Reading that without the rest of the paper sitting in front of you, you could assume it to mean, the Military is required to let in handicapped people.
Quote from: mikeylikey on May 25, 2008, 04:26:12 AM
^ Reading that without the rest of the paper sitting in front of you, you could assume it to mean, the Military is required to let in handicapped people.
I'm off to the mall tomorrow to go see the MA NG recruiter. Coming soon... PFC Johnston. ;D
Quote from: mikeylikey on May 25, 2008, 04:26:12 AM
^ Reading that without the rest of the paper sitting in front of you, you could assume it to mean, the Military is required to let in handicapped people.
No. There is such a thing as lawful discrimination. The FAA isn't required to hire blind controllers. The airlines have a mandatory retirement age for pilots. You have to be able to do the job even if you are given an accommodation.
Quote from: Frenchie on May 25, 2008, 04:11:27 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on May 25, 2008, 01:32:32 AM
Having had to deal with this situation on a number of occasions, I can tell you what I was told by NHQ lawyers about
3 years ago.
As written and defined, the ADA does not apply to Civil Air Patrol, however our leaders saw fit to sign a letter to congress indicating that while they are not bound by the law, CAP would follow it anyway.
Make of that what you will, and if anyone can substantiate different than I wouldn't argue it.
The Rehabilitation Act is the law CAP is bound by.
CAPR 36-2
...
e. DOD Directive 1020.1, Nondiscrimination on the Basis of Handicap in Programs and
Activities Assisted or Conducted by the Department of Defense, is the basic implementing directive for DOD compliance with the Rehabilitation Act of 1973, Section 504. It states that no qualified handicapped person in the United States shall on the basis of handicap be excluded from participation in, denied the benefit of, or otherwise subjected to discrimination under any program or activity conducted by the Federal Government or receiving Federal financial assistance.
We are not part of the DOD.
Quote from: Frenchie on May 25, 2008, 06:27:07 PMYou have to be able to do the job even if you are given an accommodation.
A lot of people seem to forget that.
Quote from: Eclipse on May 25, 2008, 07:08:33 PM
Quote from: Frenchie on May 25, 2008, 04:11:27 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on May 25, 2008, 01:32:32 AM
Having had to deal with this situation on a number of occasions, I can tell you what I was told by NHQ lawyers about
3 years ago.
As written and defined, the ADA does not apply to Civil Air Patrol, however our leaders saw fit to sign a letter to congress indicating that while they are not bound by the law, CAP would follow it anyway.
Make of that what you will, and if anyone can substantiate different than I wouldn't argue it.
The Rehabilitation Act is the law CAP is bound by.
CAPR 36-2
...
e. DOD Directive 1020.1, Nondiscrimination on the Basis of Handicap in Programs and
Activities Assisted or Conducted by the Department of Defense, is the basic implementing directive for DOD compliance with the Rehabilitation Act of 1973, Section 504. It states that no qualified handicapped person in the United States shall on the basis of handicap be excluded from participation in, denied the benefit of, or otherwise subjected to discrimination under any program or activity conducted by the Federal Government or receiving Federal financial assistance.
We are not part of the DOD.
Be that as it may, CAP still receives money from DOD and as such is required to comply with DOD Directive 1020.1 so long as it wishes to continue to receive those funds. Even if DOD 1020.1 didn't apply (which it does), CAP is still required to comply with Section 504 which says the same thing.
Or we could just look at our own discrimination policy/reg...
Quote from: CAPR 36-2
3. Definitions. For the purposes of this regulation:
a. "CAP Member" See CAPR 39-2, Civil Air Patrol Membership.
b. "Complainant" means one who identifies a possible violation of CAP's nondiscrimination policy, and brings it to the attention of the Equal Opportunity Officer (EOO) or a person in a position of leadership or authority.
c. "Complaint" means a written document listing facts and circumstances specifically alleging a violation of CAP's nondiscrimination policy.
d. "Investigation" means an authorized, systematic, and detailed examination to uncover facts and determine the truth and validity of a complaint.
e. Qualified Member with a Disability" means a CAP member with a disability who, either with or without reasonable accommodation, can perform the essential functions required by a CAP program or activity that such CAP member desires to participate in.
Quote from: CAPR 36-2
c. All Commanders:
(1) Are responsible for implementing and enforcing CAP policies, procedures, and directives prohibiting discrimination, as well as DOD Directives 5500.11, 1020.1, and AFI 36-2707, throughout their respective commands.
(2) Will ensure that the CAP Nondiscrimination Policy is briefed annually to all members within their respective commands.
Quote from: jimmydeanno on May 28, 2008, 09:53:35 PM
Or we could just look at our own discrimination policy/reg...
This is correct, however the penalties for disobeying a policy/reg are usually minor and limited to the person violating that policy/reg. The penalty for violating a law can be a lawsuit filed in federal court or a formal complaint filed with the DOD office of civil rights (which can eventually result in an Administrative Law Judge hearing).
The bottom line is, one should be very careful giving a cadet (or senior member) the boot who may be interpreted as having a disability. The wing/region legal officer should be consulted before such action is taken rather than trying to sort out complex legal questions at the squadron level.
Quote from: Frenchie on May 29, 2008, 12:01:55 AM
The bottom line is, one should be very careful giving a cadet (or senior member) the boot who may be interpreted as having a disability. The wing/region legal officer should be consulted before such action is taken rather than trying to sort out complex legal questions at the squadron level.
:clap:
Absolutely, with the only caveat being that you should go to the Wing CC and let him decide if Legal or anyone else needs to get involved. Its his problem if things get sporty, and he should not hear second hand from Legal.
As a corporate officer it will also be up to him to decide if an compensating processes or adjustments to the activities are appropriate and reasonable.
No one should be denied an opportunity based strictly on any arbitrary discrimination, but the other side of this is the experience for the rest of the group or activity.
Its got to be fair to everyone involved.