Acceptable Encampment Identifiers

[Jolt]

The purpose of this topic is to find some way of visually differentiating staff cadets and basic cadets at encampments.  Obviously everyone here has an aversion to baseball hats with grade insignia, shoulder cords look ridiculous on BDUs, and colored cloth behind grade insignia doesn't look right either.

What else is there?  I'm looking for a relatively inexpensive way of differentiating between staff cadets and basic cadets at encampment this year.  Last year, we didn't use any indicators, but that encampment consisted of three flights and eight senior members, so we all knew each other very well right from the start.  I don't think the same system would work for a much larger encampment.

Any suggestions?

[RickFranz]

Joe

I have been to several encampments where each flight had a different color ball cap and the staff, Cadets and Seniors wore black ball caps.  All the caps had the regular CAP seal on them, so you had something to take back home.

Rick Franz

[jeders]

When I did my basic encampment when didn't have any silly looking visual identifiers, and this was an encampment with 10 or 11 full flights.

The basics knew who their staff was and the flight staff knew their basics. All the staff knew the other staff. Simple, cheap, effective.

[CAP Producer]

When I did my basic encampment when didn't have any silly looking visual identifiers, and this was an encampment with 10 or 11 full flights.

The basics knew who their staff was and the flight staff knew their basics. All the staff knew the other staff. Simple, cheap, effective.

I could not agree more.

[Jolt]

I'm familiar with the system because we used it at the last encampment I went to, however I question how well it will work on a large scale.

Next year's encampment will likely include several senior members who cannot commit to the entire week, so I think it would be good for everyone to have a quick visual system without having to learn the names of every cadet staff member and the flights of every basic cadet.  We are talking about young cadet staffers, so it wouldn't be much of a surprise if a flight commander wasn't outwardly showing that he was in charge of a flight at all times.

I  created this topic because I wanted to see if there were any other methods I haven't seen before that I could suggest up the chain of command.

[DC]

I have seen T-Shirt color restricted with BDUs, staff wear black and basics wear tan.

When I was a basic the staff wore color coded baseball caps differentiating the various levels of staff, flight level, SQ level, exec, support, etc.

You can also go with something simple, like hats with "STAFF" on the front, I have seen that done too.

[Slim]

We always use colored baseball caps for the staff.  Each squadron is a different color, with the squadron or flight designation screened in white.  For example, squadron one is blue, squadron 2 is red, squadron three is dark green.  Cadet command staff wears black.  Basics/first timers/flight members wear standard BDU hats, no squadron specific hats allowed.

We get them for under $5 each, including the printing.  They don't need to be really fancy hats, as they're usually quite trashed by the end of the week, and the thing to do here is get all of the other staff members (senior and cadet) to sign your hat at the end of the week.

Our senior staff, including TAC officers all wear a black hat with an embroidered GLR logo.  We get those for $10 each, including the embroidery, and these things last forever if taken care of.

We usually average flight size of 17 cadets (15 basics), and 9 flights organized into three squadrons.  As long as you know which color=which squadron, you're good to go.

[SarDragon]

I spent three and a half days at Slim's encampment this year, and as an out of state stranger, I had no problems distinguishing staff members from the rest of the pack. I even got one of my very own hats to wear and bring home. 

[RickFranz]

"The purpose of this topic is to find some way of visually differentiating staff cadets and basic cadets at encampments."

Just a reminder, this very thing is done at all the basic training for the Air Force and Army.  The Smokey bear hat is the visual differentiating device for basics and staff.

[BillB]

Years ago it was very easy to tell staff from badics. Basics did NOT wear grade insignia, where staff did. Of course that's prohibited by 52-16 now. But it made things simplier. The basic reason for basics to remove grade insignia was to make all basics equal. As it is no you can have a Flight Sgt whose earned grade is C/TSgt with C/CMsgt's in the flight. The no grade insignia equalized the difference. I've seen where a higher grade cadet in a Flight that was not on staff, try to over ride the cadet staff of a lesser grade.

[notaNCO forever]

 My state has a different color hat for each flight and black hats for all the staff except flight sergeants who wear the same color hats as their flight. It works decent except for the flight sergeants.

[MIKE]

Besides the Organizational Baseball Caps, CAPM 39-1 Table 1-3. covers it.

MAWG has worn scarves/ascots at all the encampments I attended.

[hatentx]

As I sit here at lunch reading the forum I noticed one the the NCO Academy cadre walk by.  They actually wear the DUI on a small leather strip that attaches to the uniform.  Possible this with the Cap crest.  Google 3rd Corps NCO   Academy and there should be a picture of what I am talking about.

Or I am remimbering now I have had instructors wear a specialty patch which was cliped onto the uniform similiar a flightline badge.  Maybe this being an option as well.  Hats I think are way to easy on this idea though.

[dwb]

NYWG has colored baseball caps, with the person's staff area in white lettering (except med, theirs is red lettering).

Blue: senior and cadet command staff
Maroon: commandant, training, stan/eval
Red: squadron and flight commanders
Grey: support staff (public affairs, admin, logistics, etc.)
Black: chaplain / moral leadership
Yellow: TAC officers
Green: flight sergants, first sergeant, and NCOs on the support staff
White: medical staff

It's worked for us for a lot of years, although I understand not everyone approves.

[davidsinn]

I'm reminded of an AFblues comic:

[Larry Mangum]

Washington uses hats to distinguish staff from basics, usually black for the cadet staff, and a different color for senior staff. Cadet basics and flight Sargent's, wear a felt flash pinned under their cap cutouts that match the flight colors. Alpha flight might wear blue, and Bravo green.  Cadet staff at the squadron level wear the colors of both of their flights.

[MIKE]

Cadet basics and flight Sargent's, wear a felt flash pinned under their cap cutouts that match the flight colors. Alpha flight might wear blue, and Bravo green.  Cadet staff at the squadron level wear the colors of both of their flights.

This would be an unacceptable modification as it has no basis in CAPM 39-1 Table 1-3.

[ol'fido]

Illinois has used green shoulder cords for all cadet staff at times in the past. Lately it has been brown t-shirts for basics, yellow for ATS, red for comm school, and black for staff. Another suggestion might be black pistol belts for staff.

[MIKE]

Non standard t-shirt colors are another no go.  See above.

[Eclipse]

Illinois has used green shoulder cords for all cadet staff at times in the past. Lately it has been brown t-shirts for basics, yellow for ATS, red for comm school, and black for staff. Another suggestion might be black pistol belts for staff.

To be clear, that is only done at one of its two encampments, and while you will potentially find authorization for multi-color baseball hats in 39-1, there is no allowance for a rainbow of t-shirts.  Spring did use red ball caps only for TAC officers for a very specific reason, and that's as far as it will ever go as long as I have any say about it.

In my opinion their is no need for identifiers between cadet staff and basics.

[IceNine]

If you want to run a by the book compliant encampment you have no options for such items.  39-1 specifically says that while wing cc's can authorize items (shoulder cords, white gloves, white and black belts, and helmet liners) They will not be worn at encampments without approval from National HQ (re: 39-1 table 1-3 line 2)

There are no provisions for hats, shirts, flashes, armbands, etc.

You can use shoulder cords, white gloves, white and black belts, helmet liners, and berets. IF you have approval from CAP/NHQ

[MIKE]

I forgot about that part. 

[ol'fido]

Oh well, I guess we'll just have to muddle through being non-compliant.

Signed,
Olefido
Summer Person

[SWASH]

I think different colored hats work best. I TXWG makes their basics all wear CAP cutouts, which is 100% unauthorized.  But then again SMs at the ILWG SE said TXWG had a star wars themed encampment and the top 3 cadets came to formation with lightsabers    A Lt Col, the commandant, told us this. He is from TXWG. 

[Eclipse]

TXWG makes their basics all wear CAP cutouts, which is 100% unauthorized.

Where?

On ball caps?  No.

In lieu of their actual grade? Which would have to be at least Curry to qualify for participation.  No.

Both are clearly and specifically in violation of applicable regulations.

[jimmydeanno]

In lieu of their actual grade? Which would have to be at least Curry to qualify for participation.  No.

Or fall under the temporary promotion/demotion rule in 52-16.

[SWASH]

52-16 states cadets will wear their earned grade at encampment. Well if I remember it was 52-16....

[Eclipse]

52-16 states cadets will wear their earned grade at encampment. Well if I remember it was 52-16....

Right - so, where is it "100% authorized" to be force cadets to wear cutouts? (as you indicate above)

[lordmonar]

52-16 states cadets will wear their earned grade at encampment. Well if I remember it was 52-16....

Right - so, where is it "100% authorized" to be force cadets to wear cutouts? (as you indicate above)

Go back and read that again...he said "100% unauthorised".

[Eclipse]

crap...yes he did...duh.

The mind is a terrible thing to taste...

[wacapgh]

52-16 states cadets will wear their earned grade at encampment. Well if I remember it was 52-16....

You are correct:

e. Temporary & Discretionary Grades. There are no temporary promotions or demotions, including temporary or "field" promotions or demotions at encampments and other activities. There are no discretionary grades. Cadets will wear their earned grade on their uniform at every CAP activity.

[lordmonar]

crap...yes he did...duh.

The mind is a terrible thing to taste...

Actually it is quite good with a little butter and garlic. 

[Nathan]

We had a successful system at an encampment I worked during a summer. Black hats for senior members, cadet commander, cadet executive officer, cadet squadron commanders, and cadet first sergeants.

There were multiple flights, each with a different color of hat. The flight staff was given the same color hat, but with a black Sharpie stripe drawn across the brim that allowed everyone (staff, flight, parents, and other basics) to tell that they were the ones in charge of the flight.

The system worked really well, since the staff could peruse the battlefield and easily tell at a glance which flights were where. TACs could easily find their flights, staff unfamiliar with the flights could report on the location of a certain color of hat instead of the flight name, and it helped differentiate the flights and give them a bit of unit cohesion.

I would recommend it highly to those who can afford the hats. No need to get special insignia, patches, or whatever, and it gives them a hat that they can wear at home without feeling like a CAP nerd for wearing a CAP hat.

[IceNine]

Oh well, I guess we'll just have to muddle through being non-compliant.

Signed,
Olefido
Summer Person

Or you could just follow proper channel's and get the stuff approved.  But I guess it's much easier to ask forgiveness than ask permission   

[Cecil DP]

Or you could actually run the encampment like you do your units,. Everyone should know who their superiors are without a neon sign. for most of the cadets, they really only have to know their flight staff. Anyone higher is the Flight Commander's problem.

[SWASH]

crap...yes he did...duh.

The mind is a terrible thing to taste...

It's ok, Eclipse.  Everybody makes their mistakes...

[Ford73Diesel]

At OHWG encampment, we used colored ball caps as well.

Black for senior staff, cadet command staff, and support staff (SM and cadet)

Each squadron has a choice of colors depending on how well prepared their staff is. The most prepared also gets choice of floor for the dorms. the Sq and Flt TAC's wear the same color as the squadron. The ATF also gets a choice of hats.
The usual colors are:

Dark green
Blue
Maroon
Tan
Navy blue


Some cadets wear grade on the hat in years past, but I finally stamped that out this year.

I know this is not the advice you are looking for and has been stated before, but there really is no need for the cadet staff to look any different than the basics. The system above has worked flawlessly for us. I've never confused a staff member and a basic. The basics will know who is in their CoC soon enough.

[jb512]

TXWG has their basics wear colored foam under their stripes/cutouts in the color of the flight they are in.  They do not make the cadets wear cutouts only.

And yes, they did do Star Wars themed formations where the cadet staff had lightsabres.   

[Nathan]

Or you could actually run the encampment like you do your units,. Everyone should know who their superiors are without a neon sign. for most of the cadets, they really only have to know their flight staff. Anyone higher is the Flight Commander's problem.

I used to take that position, until I was the one actually in charge of selecting the staff, planning most of the encampment, overseeing the activities, being responsible for all 100+ cadets, and still having to know where every single cadet under me fell in the chain. When I had 20+ cadet staff to remember in addition to ensuring the hectic encampment day went to par (along with everything else going on in that short week), I don't always have time to root through my brain to remember who is in charge what. Especially when we had two or three sets of twins at this encampment, one pair holding staff positions.

The basics aren't the only ones who need to know who is who. Granted, I didn't necessarily HAVE to know immediately which cadets were where and in charge of what. I TECHNICALLY only had to know where my squadron commanders and C/XO were, but it made my job a whole lot easier to be able to tell at a glance who goes where. For instance, I had several points during the encampment where there were literally six different activities going on at once, staggered, in order to accomdate for helicopter rides, and I was coordinating it all from a room with a radio. It made things immensely easier for me to look out the window and see that my blue flight, was drilling, Red Flight was heading to the barracks, Green flight was in the classroom, etc.

Encampment is not designed to be run like a weekly meeting. That's why it's an encampment. I know that there will be those on this board who are going to reply with, "Well, I rank an encampment twice as big, with a week to plan it, on a base the size of Nevada, and all the cadets were clones. And I didn't need no silly colored hats." In which case I would say, "Congratulations. But my job was much easier with the hats."

[PHall]

TXWG has their basics wear colored foam under their stripes/cutouts in the color of the flight they are in.  They do not make the cadets wear cutouts only.

They used to, and the complaints from some parents, yeah those parents, is one of the reasons why the 52-16 is worded like it is.

[IceNine]

Or you could actually run the encampment like you do your units,. Everyone should know who their superiors are without a neon sign. for most of the cadets, they really only have to know their flight staff. Anyone higher is the Flight Commander's problem.

I used to take that position, until I was the one actually in charge of selecting the staff, planning most of the encampment, overseeing the activities, being responsible for all 100+ cadets, and still having to know where every single cadet under me fell in the chain. When I had 20+ cadet staff to remember in addition to ensuring the hectic encampment day went to par (along with everything else going on in that short week), I don't always have time to root through my brain to remember who is in charge what. Especially when we had two or three sets of twins at this encampment, one pair holding staff positions.

The basics aren't the only ones who need to know who is who. Granted, I didn't necessarily HAVE to know immediately which cadets were where and in charge of what. I TECHNICALLY only had to know where my squadron commanders and C/XO were, but it made my job a whole lot easier to be able to tell at a glance who goes where. For instance, I had several points during the encampment where there were literally six different activities going on at once, staggered, in order to accomdate for helicopter rides, and I was coordinating it all from a room with a radio. It made things immensely easier for me to look out the window and see that my blue flight, was drilling, Red Flight was heading to the barracks, Green flight was in the classroom, etc.

Encampment is not designed to be run like a weekly meeting. That's why it's an encampment. I know that there will be those on this board who are going to reply with, "Well, I rank an encampment twice as big, with a week to plan it, on a base the size of Nevada, and all the cadets were clones. And I didn't need no silly colored hats." In which case I would say, "Congratulations. But my job was much easier with the hats."

I am in a similar situation, as Commandant but go ahead and add a whole slew of senior staff to the mix.  Otherwise the size is comparable.

Would I say that "silly colored hats" are necessary to my job.  Nope.  Could it help...Maybe.  But at the end of the day its just one more thing to try and remember.

Certainly its much easier to not attempt to learn names or positions or whatever.  I feel that these silly hats would simply give me a reason to disconnect and not really learn who the cadets are.

YMMV

[SAR-EMT1]

When I went to encampment I was a C/A1C or C/SrA. I was required to remove the insignia and either wear CAP cutouts or have bare lapels. Also trainees removed our ribbons. This was back in 2002 at NTC Great Lakes.

[IceNine]

^Insignia was a one hit wonder.

Ribbons are still a no go.  It alleviates a lot of headache

[Timbo]

When I went to encampment I was a C/A1C or C/SrA. I was required to remove the insignia and either wear CAP cutouts or have bare lapels. Also trainees removed our ribbons. This was back in 2002 at NTC Great Lakes.

2002?  Really......as I recall that practice was a no-go as early as 97.  I even think I recall a letter from the Cadet Programs directorate on the subject "curbing" it's practice, along with "frocking". 

[IceNine]

Yep, and with all things once someone bothered to to open the books and follow the rules it was changed.

[Nathan]

Certainly its much easier to not attempt to learn names or positions or whatever.  I feel that these silly hats would simply give me a reason to disconnect and not really learn who the cadets are.

Well... to a point... yes, it does encourage that behavior. And unfortunately, command itself seems to encourage that behavior. But there isn't really any way for me (or you) as a leader of 100+ people to remember everything we would need to know about everyone and still have the time and mental capacity to run the encampment effectively. This is, essentially, why encampments have an entire staff running them, not just a single person. Generally, the only basics I got to know particularly well during the encampment were the ones who ended up in my office for disciplinary reports.

[Eclipse]

Certainly its much easier to not attempt to learn names or positions or whatever.  I feel that these silly hats would simply give me a reason to disconnect and not really learn who the cadets are.

Well... to a point... yes, it does encourage that behavior. And unfortunately, command itself seems to encourage that behavior. But there isn't really any way for me (or you) as a leader of 100+ people to remember everything we would need to know about everyone and still have the time and mental capacity to run the encampment effectively. This is, essentially, why encampments have an entire staff running them, not just a single person. Generally, the only basics I got to know particularly well during the encampment were the ones who ended up in my office for disciplinary reports.

Yep - welcome to span of control.

Want to know them personally?  Be a TAC or a Flight Commander, otherwise, the sad reality is that many of them will come and go without you ever meeting them.

Nature of the game.

[Stonewall]

It's easy.  Seniors are automatically staff.  No need for special hats, insignia or tshirts.

Cadet Staff, well that's easy too.  They're the ones standing 20 ft tall.    at least that's how it felt at my first encampment.  My flight sergeant could have been 4' 9", but as far as I was concerned he was full-blown adult standing 6' 10" because he carried himself as if his full-time job in life was to be a C/TSgt and Flight Sergeant.

Hats are a good idea, but they can be costly, even at $5 a pop.  With 100 cadets, that's 500 additional bucks that could have been spent on something else.  Staff with special hats and pin on rank, sure.

[Timbo]

I hate to say that a rainbow of multicolored hats in a formation of 100+ people is laughable.  Even colored T-shirts. 

I do not think 39-1 says we can wear colored hats or t-shirts, and just because it is done at encampment does not make it correct.

Knowing who you are in charge of, and who is in charge of you is all that is needed.  Wouldn't it be easier to say "basics wear brown T-shirts, all staff wear BLACK".  That would be acceptable according to the uniform regs, and would be an "acceptable identifier".

^ 2 shirt colors, nothing more.  Wow.....I amaze myself sometimes. 

[Ned]

^ 2 shirt colors, nothing more.  Wow.....I amaze myself sometimes. 

Amazing, all right.

I want to be the guy that tells Mom -- "Hey, no problem Ma'am.  We use underwear color to tell the staff and basics apart.  Why do you ask?"   


Why not just let commanders decide what they need to do (within regulations) at encampment and stop double guessing about what they need or don't need and criticising them for the exercise of their discretion?

Why not just support them in doing a difficult and unappreciated job insted of anonymously sharpshooting them on the net?


"I amaze myself sometimes."

Ned Lee

[Eclipse]

double guessing about what they need or don't need and criticizing them for the exercise of their discretion?

Because they are exercising a "discretion" they don't actually have, and when they do, it cause issues for similar activities as well as back at the home unit.

[Ned]

Because they are exercising a "discretion" they don't actually have, and when they do, it cause issues for similar activities as well as back at the home unit.

Whoa, there, Bob. 

Back up three words on my quote and you'll see the words "within regulations".



Are you saying that commanders cannot use their discretion while obeying regulations?


If you truly believe that, remind me not to work for you anytime soon.



(But as a staff guy, I'll continue to support you in the exercise of your command discretion.

As long as you follow regulations.)

Ned Lee

[Timbo]

Why not just let commanders decide what they need to do (within regulations) at encampment and stop double guessing about what they need or don't need and criticising them for the exercise of their discretion?

Why not just support them in doing a difficult and unappreciated job instead of anonymously sharpshooting them on the net?
Ned Lee

First....who exactly did I criticize??  Second, I thought this thread was for expressing ideas about what would be simplest to do.  I gave what my idea was, and it was the simplest of all those presented, and fell within the regulation guidelines.

Why not support a fellow members right to express their opinions here, instead of bashing them and "sharpshooting" them....Mr Lee.

-Tim Baker   

[Eclipse]

Because they are exercising a "discretion" they don't actually have, and when they do, it cause issues for similar activities as well as back at the home unit.

Whoa, there, Bob. 

Back up three words on my quote and you'll see the words "within regulations".

Are you saying that commanders cannot use their discretion while obeying regulations?

Of course not, but in this case, little latitude for that purported discretion exists, and in nearly every discussion of this that comes up, the commanders who decide to do their own thing publicly acknowledge they are breaking regs, and then say they don't care, or try and justify it with an excuse about making it easier to manage the activity, which is irrelevant to the conversation.

"Within regulations" there is no allowance for rainbow colored shirts, or grade insignia on hats. Period. Especially the grade on hats as when and where this can be worn has recently been specified by NHQ.

Further, the authority to define local unit hats is not explicitly extended to activity commanders.  Certainly one could make the argument that it should be, however assuming that's the case, what may, or may not, be on those hats is very specific within 39-1.

I agree completely that "within regs" commanders have to use discretion, but this isn't a case with an ambiguous regulation, or something so new or unusual its never been spoken to.

This is simply local commanders doing whatever they think looks "cool", and the chain having more important things to worry about.

Which doesn't make it right, or negate the issues it causes elsewhere.

[Timbo]

"Within regulations" there is no allowance for rainbow colored shirts, or grade insignia on hats. Period. Especially the grade on hats as when and where this can be worn has recently been specified by NHQ.

Hmm......like the PAWG Wing Commander letting the Encampment Senior Staff wear metal grade insignia on their hats in 2008?  The pictures are floating around on the web, so I guess National Approves. 

[Eclipse]

"Within regulations" there is no allowance for rainbow colored shirts, or grade insignia on hats. Period. Especially the grade on hats as when and where this can be worn has recently been specified by NHQ.

Hmm......like the PAWG Wing Commander letting the Encampment Senior Staff wear metal grade insignia on their hats in 2008?  The pictures are floating around on the web, so I guess National Approves. 

Do not confuse apathy with approval.

[SWASH]

Can anyone provide me with a reg that says basic cadets attending encampment must wear brown shirts and black shirts are only worn by staff.  I looked in 52-16, but it did not even contain the word black in it.  I also looked in 39-1 and could not find anything.  Thanks.

[Eclipse]

Can anyone provide me with a reg that says basic cadets attending encampment must wear brown shirts and black shirts are only worn by staff.  I looked in 52-16, but it did not even contain the word black in it.  I also looked in 39-1 and could not find anything.  Thanks.

Look harder, 39-1 specifies brown or black t-shirts with BDUs, and white or black with BBDUs, and neither it, nor 52-16 allows for anything else, therefore, if it doesn't say you can, you can't.

As we have to repeatedly remind people, the CAP regs are written in a way that indicated what is allowed, to the exclusion of all else.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Why do you need special hats or shirts? Isn't the grade insignia telling enough? You know a senior member when you see one. You know a cadet officer when you see one, too.

And each cadet should be intelligent enough to know who his or her flight commander is. If not, they shouldn't be going to an encampment.

I could see a different color hat for each cadet squadron (each flight would be too much, probably). But that's about it. You don't need different colors for senior members, cadet staff members or whatever -- their grade is clearly indicated on their uniforms, and that should be enough.

All this special bling just because someone's on "staff" is silly. It's reminiscent of a separate discussion about "wing staff" patches or rockers.

[Nathan]

Why do you need special hats or shirts? Isn't the grade insignia telling enough? You know a senior member when you see one. You know a cadet officer when you see one, too.

And each cadet should be intelligent enough to know who his or her flight commander is. If not, they shouldn't be going to an encampment.

I could see a different color hat for each cadet squadron (each flight would be too much, probably). But that's about it. You don't need different colors for senior members, cadet staff members or whatever -- their grade is clearly indicated on their uniforms, and that should be enough.

All this special bling just because someone's on "staff" is silly. It's reminiscent of a separate discussion about "wing staff" patches or rockers.

I'm usually the first to speak out against extra uniform bling, but I don't think that colored hats fit the definition of "bling" (they certainly don't look cooler than the BDU hat...).

Rather, keep in mind that the basics aren't the only ones who will have to know which staff are with which flight. As I mentioned earlier, I, as the C/CC for a rather large encampment, was faced with keeping over six flights and numerous support staff, along with senior member staff, straight in my head while at the same time running the encampment. It made my job tremendously easier when I could tell at a distance which flight was where simply by the color of the hat. And when I'm looking around for my 14 year old C/XO in a sea of other 14 year old basics, the black hat really made a difference.

In addition, keep in mind that a C/TSgt may be in charge of a C/CMSgt during an encampment. And there may be a C/SSgt support staff member. Grade, while useful, is not always the best way of telling who is ACTUALLY in charge at an encampment. And yes, while the cadets should probably know who their Flight Sergeant is, they won't necessarily know who is in charge of what, or, if they need ANY staff member (ie, they're lost), the colored hat can help.

Case in point, my second encampment was a region encampment, and I was a flight sergeant. Being the cocky C/SMSgt that I was, I saw a cadet apparently dawdling outside of the barracks when I had orders to get all basics into the barracks and prepared for in-processing. I called out, "Hey, cadet, where are you supposed to be? We need everyone inside the barracks in two minutes ago, and you're getting left behind!" He looks at me and say, "Oh. I'm your First Sergeant."

"Oh."

"Yeah."

"Mkay. Bye."

Colored hats prevent awkward moments, people! Don't become a victim!

[Ned]

First....who exactly did I criticize?? 

No one by name, of course.  That's part of the fun of this kind of internet chatter.

You did say that the use of colored baseball hats -- perfectly legitimate if appropriate approvals are granted and more importantly used by several large wings every year -- were "laughable", did you not?

That was your word - "laughable", right?

It kinda sounded to me like you were criticizing (ridiculing, actually) the wings that legitimately use colored baseball hats.

If you meant "laughable" in a kind way or as a form of constructive criticism, I misinterpreted your post and apologize.

Why not support a fellow members right to express their opinions here, instead of bashing them and "sharpshooting" them....Mr Lee.

-Tim Baker   

Fair question. 

And the answer is that I do support CAP Talkers that express positive ideas and constructive criticism of the organization or it's members.  And especially when they do so while displaying the CAP Core Value of Respect.

But far too often in this forum, we see posts that are so negative that they amount to bashing.

There is certainly nothing wrong with answering the OP with responses like "Under the current 39-1, it looks like you could use colored baseball hats (with appropriate approvals),  shoulder cords, or some sort of ID card or badge temporarily clipped to the uniform."  Or even "you could simply have the staff wear black t-shirts and the basics wear brown."

But the group never seems to let it go at that.  We will inevitably see posts like the ones in this thread where posters demean the actions of others as "silly", "laughable," or worse.

Most made by people who feel they are anonymous.

And this is just a thread about encampments.  Many other threads are far worse.

Your post was by no means the worst, which is why I responded to your comments with a little smiley humor, tempered by a response intended for you and others about attempting to support our commanders rather than telling them that the reasoned exercise of their discretion is "laughable."


Ned Lee

(And for Bob, I agree that t-shirt colors other than black and brown are always improper for BDUs at encampment and that grade is not authorized for baseball hats at any time.)

[Eclipse]

Nathan, I think you are still missing the point of span of control.

While a Commander is, in fact, personally responsible for those under his command, it is a practical impossibility to know the whereabouts of every single person at any given moment (see "Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle" for more detail).

The real command responsibility is insuring that the chain is fully functional to support the commander's ultimate, personal, responsibility.

A flight sergeant, for example, should not be tasked with getting "all the basics" back in barracks.  That exceeds the authority of the flight sergeant, and completely breaks the chain of command.  It also creates a situation where previous directives from those cadets' actual commanders is circumvented, and/or potentially sets up flight CC's to not know where there people actually are - a bad day for everyone.

Obviously the directive should have been passed down the chain as appropriate.  Not only it it the correct way to do it, learning to give and receive clear, succinct directives in a "stressful*" environment is part of the encampment experience.

The regular military has everyone dressed the same way, and the last time I looked, are able to command and control troops on a scale significantly higher than CAP generally deals with, and in environments somewhat more challenging.

All without having different colors overtly apparent to anyone, along with subdued grade and other insignia (and clothing that blends into the background by design).

Why?  Because the men are taught from day one that you only listen to the person you're told to listen to, and that doesn't change until it officially changes.  CAP could learn from that.

Ned, as always you are the font of simple, elegant solutions - black for one set of participants, brown for another - fills the perceived need and doesn't violate anyone's regs or dignity, and in most cases pulls uniforms from the cadets' closets.  Absolutely brilliant, and one would have to ask why this is not the answer...

*Stressful in the context of an encampment, not in the context of BMT or combat, etc.

[Ned]

Ned, as always you are the font of simple, elegant solutions - black for one set of participants, brown for another - fills the perceived need and doesn't violate anyone's regs or dignity, and in most cases pulls uniforms from the cadets' closets.  Absolutely brilliant, and one would have to ask why this is not the answer...

Thanks for the kind words, but that was Tim's idea.  I'm the one that suggested that underwear color was probably not the best way to tell staff from others.  Or at least I didn't want to be the one to explain that to Mom.

And having been an Army guy for a couple of decades, I should point out that at the platoon/flight level the NCO is actually in the chain of command.  And also the concept of colored baseball caps was in all probability drawn from our USAF partners.  I recall that USAF units supporting flight operations often used very colorful caps to tell who was in what unit.  Also the Army also uses some obvious visual identifiers ranging from drill sergeant's headgear to colorful MP brassards to help tell who has authority in a given situation.

Other RM examples include "farts and darts" on field grade service caps, stripes on service uniform trousers for officers, and WWII era stripes on the back of officers' helmets. 

This is all about supporting what a commander needs to accomplish a given mission.  You and I may disagree with a commander's choice about what she/he "needs", but as long as they have the responsibility for the mission and are acting within regulations, our job is to support them in their choices.

And not sit on the sidelines offering unsolicited advice about what is "needed" or not.

[Timbo]

Thanks for the kind words, but that was Tim's idea. 

Thanks Ned!  Actually, I was going to borrow your underwear idea.

I have been in Encampments that have used colored (t-shirt, hats, arm bands etc), and some that have used nothing.  They have ranged from 200+ to 96.  Both ran effectively, with the proper staff, and more importantly the proper Commander. 

I think the use of colored items, unique identifiers and whatever else that can be thought of are sometimes throwbacks a few decades, and no one has decided to make any changes.  I hate to reference PAWG, but I have been in PAWG for 12 years, while I was only in Missouri Wing for 2, but the use of an Orange Hat evolved from the Ranger-types trying to be distinctive to something that is Wing wide now (and spreading across the country like a virus), and the excuse the past three Wing Commanders have given to keeping it around was "it has always been that way, I am not going to change it".

I think an Encampment can be as effectively run without all the colored items as it could be with them included.

BTW....one unique item that I hated to see go away in the army was the wearing of Branch Insignia on the ACU when they made the move.  It sure was easier to tell who was a "cool Combat Guy", and who was a "nerdy Finance Officer".  Maybe that is what is actually going on with wearing of distinctive items at Encampments.  People want the recognition of what position they hold.  They don't want to be mistaken for Comm or Logistics, or the mess staff, they want everyone to see that they are cool line staff, or echelon staff.  (Don't tell me that it can not be a reason, remember there is a post here trying to find out if we can wear military awards, awarded when the posters were not even born yet!)

[Eclipse]

Ned, as always you are the font of simple, elegant solutions - black for one set of participants, brown for another - fills the perceived need and doesn't violate anyone's regs or dignity, and in most cases pulls uniforms from the cadets' closets.  Absolutely brilliant, and one would have to ask why this is not the answer...

Thanks for the kind words, but that was Tim's idea.  I'm the one that suggested that underwear color was probably not the best way to tell staff from others.  Or at least I didn't want to be the one to explain that to Mom.

OK, please pass the kudos to him next time you see him.   

And having been an Army guy for a couple of decades, I should point out that at the platoon/flight level the NCO is actually in the chain of command.  [/quote]

Yes, absolutely, but not for "all the basic cadets" - the impression I got from Nathan's post was that he was told to go and tell all the basics, his flight and others to get in the barracks.  A chain no-no in my book.

I'd expect an FS to be corralling his own people, but not someone else's.

[SWASH]

Ned, as always you are the font of simple, elegant solutions - black for one set of participants, brown for another - fills the perceived need and doesn't violate anyone's regs or dignity, and in most cases pulls uniforms from the cadets' closets.  Absolutely brilliant, and one would have to ask why this is not the answer...

Thanks for the kind words, but that was Tim's idea.  I'm the one that suggested that underwear color was probably not the best way to tell staff from others.  Or at least I didn't want to be the one to explain that to Mom.

OK, please pass the kudos to him next time you see him.   

And having been an Army guy for a couple of decades, I should point out that at the platoon/flight level the NCO is actually in the chain of command. 

Yes, absolutely, but not for "all the basic cadets" - the impression I got from Nathan's post was that he was told to go and tell all the basics, his flight and others to get in the barracks.  A chain no-no in my book.

I'd expect an FS to be corralling his own people, but not someone else's.
[/quote]

I'm guessing Nathan was using the sentence "all the basic cadets" as all of his basic cadets, as in all of the basics in his flight.

I too have been to encampments with staff hats of a million different colors for every single position, staff hats of all the same color, and no staff hats at all.  Honestly when I was a basic I did not need to see a million different colors to know who was what, in fact I didn't even care because all I listend to was my FS, FC, and First Shirt.  The encampment I went to with no staff hats was a smaller one with basicly no support staff, and that worked out fine because the basics only had to listen to two people, the FS and FC.  It's all up to the Encampment CC and what he wants to do.

And thank you Eclipse for the shirt clarification.  So by what the manual says the encampments that prohibit black shirts for basics and do not provide brown ones are wrong?

[Eclipse]

And thank you Eclipse for the shirt clarification.  So by what the manual says the encampments that prohibit black shirts for basics and do not provide brown ones are wrong?

That would be another case where people are making up rules locally.

In fact, 39-1 says quite the opposite in that Commanders are only allowed to require a specific uniform item, beyond the basic cadet uniform, if the item is issued to the cadets.

So to prohibit an approved shirt color, but not provide the color you require, would be a clear violation of 39-1.

Which brings us back to the issue of requiring BDU's at encampments, which in and of itself is a violation of the same regulation.  The rules say yo can prescribe a uniform of the day, but you can't deny a cadet participation if they don't have what you prescribe. (that same prohibition doesn't apply to seniors, so don't bother going there).

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Ah, the former cadets come out....

When I was a cadet officer, helping lead (or leading) large encampments, I didn't deal much directly with flight members, at least not on a formal basis. I dealt with squadron and flight commanders.

And remember: The senior may not remember, but the junior never forgets.

We never had colored hats. My diamonds were enough. My XO's diamonds, too. Squadron commanders were, at the very least, cadet first lieutenants. Flight commanders were FOs, 2nd Lts or 1st Lts, occasionally a captain if squadron commanders held higher rank.

I can see some disrepancy on the flight level with flight sergeants. Maybe in an ideal situation, if squadrons get colored hats, they should have some code on the hats for flight sergeants, like FS or something.

[Nathan]

Nathan, I think you are still missing the point of span of control.

I'm not entirely sure we're disagreeing as much as you think we're disagreeing, Eclipse.

While a Commander is, in fact, personally responsible for those under his command, it is a practical impossibility to know the whereabouts of every single person at any given moment (see "Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle" for more detail).

I'm a chemistry guy. I agree here.

The regular military has everyone dressed the same way, and the last time I looked, are able to command and control troops on a scale significantly higher than CAP generally deals with, and in environments somewhat more challenging.

All without having different colors overtly apparent to anyone, along with subdued grade and other insignia (and clothing that blends into the background by design).

Why?  Because the men are taught from day one that you only listen to the person you're told to listen to, and that doesn't change until it officially changes.  CAP could learn from that.

Which is where I think we might disagree (I think...), because you're making the comparison between two completely different groups. The first are adults who have been through weeks of training and indoctrination (sometimes longer), who are for the most part completely standardized in training, with commanders who have had years and years of experience, and in addition to them, as you said, doing this EVERY DAY. The second group is consisted mainly of cadets who may have only been in CAP for a few months before attending encampment, may never have left home for more than a few hours before, with completely inconsistent training between units, and with cadets who wear a uniform for 2.5 hours a week.

So we can't expect the chain of command to work QUITE the same way. Even the immediate leaders, the C/NCO's, could have been in for only a little over a year (in some circumstances, less), and even the highest ranking cadets are likely not to have been in for more than five or six years. The cadets are going to need MUCH more direct oversight and hands-on manegement than a military unit will, because the military unit does what it does every day. Everyone knows their place. Today, they are doing something, and in a month from today, they will likely be doing the same thing, with the same people in charge.

Encampment is nothing like that. The commanders are not only supposed to train the basics, but train the staff below them, and be trained by the staff above them. It takes place over a week, with daily activities differing, with staff the cadets may never have met before. The goal of encampment is training for the entire cadet corps and most of the senior corps. In order to ensure that this training is effective, a commander oftentimes has to let his/her people do their jobs, but not necessarily trust them 100% for getting the job done alone. That's not part of good training. So we need to know who goes where, and belongs to whom, in order to ensure that our people are getting the job done right.

And colored hats help.

[jimmydeanno]

The regular military has everyone dressed the same way, and the last time I looked, are able to command and control troops on a scale significantly higher than CAP generally deals with, and in environments somewhat more challenging.

All without having different colors overtly apparent to anyone, along with subdued grade and other insignia (and clothing that blends into the background by design).

Not to add fuel to this, but in military training environments they do indeed have differentiators, from smokey the bear hats to cords.  My wife's AF tech school had "ropes" who wore a red, yellow or green cord on all of their uniforms, including BDUs. 

[Eclipse]

The regular military has everyone dressed the same way, and the last time I looked, are able to command and control troops on a scale significantly higher than CAP generally deals with, and in environments somewhat more challenging.

All without having different colors overtly apparent to anyone, along with subdued grade and other insignia (and clothing that blends into the background by design).

Not to add fuel to this, but in military training environments they do indeed have differentiators, from smokey the bear hats to cords.  My wife's AF tech school had "ropes" who wore a red, yellow or green cord on all of their uniforms, including BDUs.

Apples and oranges...

A: Whatever they are wearing is approved by HQ for wear.

B: They are most likely consistent across bases and identifiers.

C: Whatever is worn in that environment is not worn during normal operations (i.e. Smokey hats in combat, etc.)

However all three above are part of the argument against them in CAP encampments, because we have such an issue with adherence to regulations at local units.

Though A: should be enough...