Changing Civil Air Patrol to U.S. Civil Air Patrol

[DNall]

Not sure you'd have much trouble determining who we work for with white on dark blue, or white on OD.

[Jolt]

Dark blue seems like a bad change to me.  It doesn't change enough to warrant changing.  And I suppose I could go with white on OD, but the change over period would look horrible (imagine a flight of cadets with splashes of OD and ultra-marine blue tapes for a few months).

Also, the OD grade insignia that would have to match the tapes would probably be too close to the military grade insignias.

[DNall]

State guard, ROTC, all kinds of folks formally affiliated with the mil get to wear fully subdued stuff for professional appearance reasons & never go to war.

Full color lettering on OD tapes is quite distinctive from the mil & determines the meaning (or lack thereof) of any other insignia on teh uniform. That should be plenty adequate. Dark blue to match BBDUs is a popular option for many folks. I could accept it, but it is a small change.

I believe I already mentioned I wouldn't support a tape change till we were set to phase into ABUs. Best case being new stuff goes on the new uniform, old on old, but I'd take a change early & still be in phase in if it'd set precedent for something that doesn't look stupid on the new uniforms. ABU tapes & grade being camo'd, the color on OD is even more distinctive.

I think it's a waste of money in the meantime.

[JohnKachenmeister]

ROTC never go to war, but state guard units do have combat missions; the fact that they are not presently employed in combat tasks, notwithstanding.

[DNall]

A couple companies of SDF once heard some rounds in the civil war. CAP has a battle history too, and does direct combat support now, same as SDFs. There's difference here & there. Point is they don't need subdued tapes any more than CAP does. They get them cause it looks professional & helps them get tehir job done in an emergency, same as CAP.

[ddelaney103]

Q: What's the purpose of tapes on the uniform?

A: To identify the person's service and name.

In the military services, they have to balance this need against tactical considerations.  In CAP we do not.

The AF wore the same tape colors on their uniform as CAP before they "went tactical."

The Maryland Defense Force wears yellow on black: partially for visibility, partially because they're the state colors.

So, is there a need, other than "to look more like the military," to change?

[ddelaney103]

A couple companies of SDF once heard some rounds in the civil war. CAP has a battle history too, and does direct combat support now, same as SDFs. There's difference here & there. Point is they don't need subdued tapes any more than CAP does. They get them cause it looks professional & helps them get tehir job done in an emergency, same as CAP.

Define "direct combat support" as it is used in this sentence.

[DNall]

Texas, along with several other states, wears standard subdued tapes. They sued to have yellow on black, but that changed some time ago when the state started taking them seriously.

Two main reasons behind that:
1) sdf & guard felt like they were on the same team working together for joint objectives. It increased morale, and it increased active membership substantially - this wasn't the only thing that happened, but it was part of a series of changes ment to bring them into the family.

2) To give the impression of authority in emergency situations. SDF members are put into disaster zones by states, and they want the public thinking they are the national guard, not some yahoo civilian they are free to disobey. In CAP, we deal with the public all the time. Pilots & mechanics scared of getting fined or losing licenses; people in disaster zones; people who think we are AF trained, quald, & certified professionals out to ind their loved ones. Fact is if they really knew what CAP was they'd laugh you out of the office & tell the police to keep you off the premises. You need the illusion of official professional standing or you can't do anything.

Direct combat support = lots of missions we do now... from that chaplain thing you saw the other day that included field training, to penetration simuations, to HLS recon of protected sites, airspace, & border/coastal areas. There's really no limit though, according to law we can be employed in any way the SAF wants, just so it doesn't involve direct pulling of a trigger in combat... and we aren't legally restricted from that, just CAP regs & the SAF is instructed not to assign us those missions.

I'm not suggesting we should be assigned combat roles, merely that the public expectation of what a military uniform should look like is established, and professional competence is absolutely judged by in degree to which someone meets that expectation. If you look like a clown, you'll be treated like one.

[RiverAux]

and we aren't legally restricted from that, just CAP regs & the SAF is instructed not to assign us those missions.

a federal law that restricts us to noncombat support certainly seems like a legal restriction to me. 

I think the term combat support is being thrown around a little loosely here too. 

[DNall]

The AF defines those penetration missions combat support, we used to not be able to do that. The law does NOT restrict CAP from combat in any way. It restricts the SAF from assigning us those duties. If you are on an ELT mission down near the border & a guardsman gets hit by the mexican army, you could pick up his rifle & return fire. It'd violate CAP regs, but you won't be committing a crime. Granted that's not going to happen. The AF isn't going to assign you a job where you could be in such a situation. However, especially with the augmentation conversations we've been having & in light of the chaplain stpry we saw recently, it is very likely we can & will have members supporting AF in a field environent.

[flyguy06]

ROTC never go to war, but state guard units do have combat missions; the fact that they are not presently employed in combat tasks, notwithstanding.

What are you talking about? I am in the Guard, in an Infantry Brigade that went to war last year.

[ddelaney103]

Texas, along with several other states, wears standard subdued tapes. They sued to have yellow on black, but that changed some time ago when the state started taking them seriously.

Two main reasons behind that:
1) sdf & guard felt like they were on the same team working together for joint objectives. It increased morale, and it increased active membership substantially - this wasn't the only thing that happened, but it was part of a series of changes ment to bring them into the family.

2) To give the impression of authority in emergency situations. SDF members are put into disaster zones by states, and they want the public thinking they are the national guard, not some yahoo civilian they are free to disobey. In CAP, we deal with the public all the time. Pilots & mechanics scared of getting fined or losing licenses; people in disaster zones; people who think we are AF trained, quald, & certified professionals out to ind their loved ones. Fact is if they really knew what CAP was they'd laugh you out of the office & tell the police to keep you off the premises. You need the illusion of official professional standing or you can't do anything.

Direct combat support = lots of missions we do now... from that chaplain thing you saw the other day that included field training, to penetration simuations, to HLS recon of protected sites, airspace, & border/coastal areas. There's really no limit though, according to law we can be employed in any way the SAF wants, just so it doesn't involve direct pulling of a trigger in combat... and we aren't legally restricted from that, just CAP regs & the SAF is instructed not to assign us those missions.

I'm not suggesting we should be assigned combat roles, merely that the public expectation of what a military uniform should look like is established, and professional competence is absolutely judged by in degree to which someone meets that expectation. If you look like a clown, you'll be treated like one.

So you're saying we should wear subdued tapes to 1) feel good about ourselves and 2) deceive the public we serve?

That's just wrong on so many levels.

Also, your idea of "direct combat support" is some "training support"  and some "non-combat support."  Frankly, this was my main worry about the Chaplain mission - that people would get the idea that we're going to be up in the fight.

And the whole "returning fire" thing?  All I can say is "crack kills."

[DeputyDog]

ROTC never go to war, but state guard units do have combat missions; the fact that they are not presently employed in combat tasks, notwithstanding.

What are you talking about? I am in the Guard, in an Infantry Brigade that went to war last year.

He is talking about State Defense Forces, which are sometimes referred to as "State Guard". He wasn't talking about the National Guard.

[DNall]

So you're saying we should wear subdued tapes to 1) feel good about ourselves and 2) deceive the public we serve?

Feel good about ourselvess to the tremendous benefit of CAP & the AF, yeah sure. You don't find it insulting that it's jut so gosh darn important no one on the planet confuse us with anyone in the military? Cause most people do.

Far as deception, what is it you think you do now? CAP doesn't train people to NIMS standards or even remotely qualify them to do anything. CAP is allowed to do missions because we let the outside world think we're trained to AF standards & somehow certified & experienced as professional SaR operatives that eveyone else should bow down to. Hell half Congress thinks that too. If the state knew that was the situation, they wouldn't let you take a real mission, they'd give it to the national guard or state police, anyone but CAP. Some states know better & don't allow CAP ground teams. Fact is if someones screaming wife comes to your mission base & finds out you are an unpaid volunteer that never had to graduate from any course to do this... everyone would get sued & CAP would be off the mission in a flash. There is no CAP w/o affiliation ?& in some cases confusion w/ the military, or at very least the implication of endorsement where none exists.

Sorry if you feel that's wrong, but that's the nature of the beast & it is used to best advantage by all sides.

Also, your idea of "direct combat support" is some "training support"  and some "non-combat support."  Frankly, this was my main worry about the Chaplain mission - that people would get the idea that we're going to be up in the fight.

The AF doesn't have a lot of other categories like that. They got combat, combat support, & stictly non-combatant. There's not really anything else. Anything that remotely in any way supports a combat unit, operation, or pirce of gear is combat support, even if it doesn't ultimately end in supporting actual direct action combat. Aiding in training for combat, is combat support, same as if they issued you MILES gear & sent you out to play with a combatant unit in the field.

Far as being up in the fight, I think people understand CAP doesn't go to combat, though there has been discussion fo deplying chaplains overseas as contractors.

And the whole "returning fire" thing?  All I can say is "crack kills."

I know it was a stretch I was just trying to make a point of how the SAF can't order us into that positions, but there is no law resticting CAP from such activities. Again, I don't advocate sending CAP into combat, that's a little silly, but we shouldn't be restricted from aiding AF in ever way possible, especially when they are engaged in combat.

[JohnKachenmeister]

ROTC never go to war, but state guard units do have combat missions; the fact that they are not presently employed in combat tasks, notwithstanding.

What are you talking about? I am in the Guard, in an Infantry Brigade that went to war last year.

State Guard units are the non-federal force under the control of the governor when the National Guard is called into federal service.  Technically, they can be assigned to combat roles, although combat within the United States is unlikely.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Texas, along with several other states, wears standard subdued tapes. They sued to have yellow on black, but that changed some time ago when the state started taking them seriously.

Two main reasons behind that:
1) sdf & guard felt like they were on the same team working together for joint objectives. It increased morale, and it increased active membership substantially - this wasn't the only thing that happened, but it was part of a series of changes ment to bring them into the family.

2) To give the impression of authority in emergency situations. SDF members are put into disaster zones by states, and they want the public thinking they are the national guard, not some yahoo civilian they are free to disobey. In CAP, we deal with the public all the time. Pilots & mechanics scared of getting fined or losing licenses; people in disaster zones; people who think we are AF trained, quald, & certified professionals out to ind their loved ones. Fact is if they really knew what CAP was they'd laugh you out of the office & tell the police to keep you off the premises. You need the illusion of official professional standing or you can't do anything.

Direct combat support = lots of missions we do now... from that chaplain thing you saw the other day that included field training, to penetration simuations, to HLS recon of protected sites, airspace, & border/coastal areas. There's really no limit though, according to law we can be employed in any way the SAF wants, just so it doesn't involve direct pulling of a trigger in combat... and we aren't legally restricted from that, just CAP regs & the SAF is instructed not to assign us those missions.

I'm not suggesting we should be assigned combat roles, merely that the public expectation of what a military uniform should look like is established, and professional competence is absolutely judged by in degree to which someone meets that expectation. If you look like a clown, you'll be treated like one.

So you're saying we should wear subdued tapes to 1) feel good about ourselves and 2) deceive the public we serve?

That's just wrong on so many levels.

Also, your idea of "direct combat support" is some "training support"  and some "non-combat support."  Frankly, this was my main worry about the Chaplain mission - that people would get the idea that we're going to be up in the fight.

And the whole "returning fire" thing?  All I can say is "crack kills."

Even though we are restricted to being assigned "Non-Combat" missions of the USAF, nothing in the federal law restricts us from engaging in self-defense if attacked.  "Non-Combat" does not equal "Pacifist."

[flyguy06]

ROTC never go to war, but state guard units do have combat missions; the fact that they are not presently employed in combat tasks, notwithstanding.

What are you talking about? I am in the Guard, in an Infantry Brigade that went to war last year.

State Guard units are the non-federal force under the control of the governor when the National Guard is called into federal service.  Technically, they can be assigned to combat roles, although combat within the United States is unlikely.

You are refering to State Defence Forces. Not State Guard. State Guard , National Guard same thing. The State Defense Force is what you are talking about.

[MississippiFlyboy]

ROTC never go to war, but state guard units do have combat missions; the fact that they are not presently employed in combat tasks, notwithstanding.

What are you talking about? I am in the Guard, in an Infantry Brigade that went to war last year.

State Guard units are the non-federal force under the control of the governor when the National Guard is called into federal service.  Technically, they can be assigned to combat roles, although combat within the United States is unlikely.

You are refering to State Defence Forces. Not State Guard. State Guard , National Guard same thing. The State Defense Force is what you are talking about.

They are the same thing.  Title 32 of the US Code defines "other troops" as state defense forces.  The states may call their state defense force whatever they want.

Examples

Alaska State Defense Force
Mississippi State Guard
Indiana Guard Reserve
California State Military Reserve

All are SDFs with different names.  However, all are state military forces under control of the TAG and the Governor.

[DNall]

You are refering to State Defence Forces. Not State Guard. State Guard , National Guard same thing. The State Defense Force is what you are talking about.

No it's not. I understand in Ga it is called the Ga Def Forces, however in many other places, like here in Texas for instance, it is called the Texas State Guard. And their tapes look like: (which by the way cost 85cents)

[flyguy06]

Very interesting. Never heard of that before. But then again, I had never heard of the GA State Defense Force before 2004.