1st Lt for Life...Oy!!!

[RiverAux]

The ICS300/400 are a different story.  I suspect we will lose some high level mission staff who will be offended if they lose their quals over it.

They should be no more offended than a licensed professional, i.e., Doctor, Lawyer, Teacher, CPA, etc., meeting the 'continuing education' requirements to keep their jobs, or soldiers and marines re-qualifying with their weapons and common tasks annually.  Or better yet, a pilot becoming offended because he has to take a check-ride.

Actually, it is a little like telling that Doctor that he needs to go back to school to take a few new courses.  Experience has shown that people will drop out because of these requirements, even the easy online courses.  I'm not saying that we shouldn't be doing them, but anytime you increase requirements you will lose people not willing to "pay the price" and that we are going to lose some good mission staff people over 300/400 requirement. 

Same goes for any increased requirements relating to promotion. 

[lordmonar]

Well....such is life....nothing we can do about it.

We either meet NIMS requirements and take the hit on our volunteers or we ignore the NIMS requirement and take the chance that we don't get used for missions.

Seeing as how we should all be in CAP to accomplish the mission....I know which way I would vote.

[arajca]

The ICS300/400 are a different story.  I suspect we will lose some high level mission staff who will be offended if they lose their quals over it.

They should be no more offended than a licensed professional, i.e., Doctor, Lawyer, Teacher, CPA, etc., meeting the 'continuing education' requirements to keep their jobs, or soldiers and marines re-qualifying with their weapons and common tasks annually.  Or better yet, a pilot becoming offended because he has to take a check-ride.

Actually, it is a little like telling that Doctor that he needs to go back to school to take a few new courses.  Experience has shown that people will drop out because of these requirements, even the easy online courses.  I'm not saying that we shouldn't be doing them, but anytime you increase requirements you will lose people not willing to "pay the price" and that we are going to lose some good mission staff people over 300/400 requirement. 

Same goes for any increased requirements relating to promotion. 

If a medical standard changes, doctors DO take classes to maintain currency. It's part of their requirements. It is no different than when the training requirements firefighters had to meet when the haz mat regs came out. They had to take the training or leave. Most took the training. Including volunteers.

[Sleepwalker]

I have earned promotion to Major, and will really enjoy doing those jobs that come with it, but I will probably not become LtCol for a long, long time because of everything involved. 

What jobs are restricted to those of a Major or higher (Wing CC not included) ?

jkalemis:  The only requirements I am aware of is that of Group Commander, which is probably my next job.       

[davedove]

Personally, I think it's all a matter of personal choice.  Everyone serves in their own way, to their own limits.  The 1st Lt for life may be one of the biggest contributors to the ES mission in the squadron.

I personally choose to pursue the PD program for the following reasons:
1.  I figure the extra training will make me better able to contribute to CAP.
2.  As the squadron's PD Officer, I figure I shouldn't be encouraging others to pursue the program if i don't do it myself.  You know, lead by example.
3.  Okay, I admit it, I like the little ribbons.

[lordmonar]

There are two side to this issue.

One side....as officers and leaders we should be activly looking for way to imporove ourselves so we can more effectivly perform our duties and get the mission done.

Flip Side....as volunteers (and I know some of you hate this word) there are limits to our time/ability/money/commitment that we are willing to pay in the service of CAP.

As leaders of CAP officers we need to encourage and facilitate our members to learn more and become better leaders. 

But beyond that what are we going to do?

We only have a few carrots and fewer sticks in our leadership tool bags.  And we ourselves have limited time and resources that we have to spend in a lot of areas.

So Lt Sitonadime likes being a Lt....does not think he has the time to do his ECI 13 or SLS.
Is he a "bad" officer?  Not necessarily. 

Do I kick him out if he does not progress?  Only If I were stupid.

Bottom line...IF and officer is lacking in skills and needs to progress....then as a commander I would step in and make it happen or place the officer in to duties more suited to his talent.

But if he is not a problem...and he is happy and does not want to progress I will use him to the best of my abilities.

[Dragoon]

I think part of the issue is that, frankly rank means nothing.

Many folks work hard to improve themselves in CAP.  They go to classes, come out for exercises, talk with the Wing counterparts.

But they (correctly) see that rank is CAP is optional, and has no effect on their ability to operate.

Some are even a little embarrassed to be "pretend officers."

And we invented a uniform (golf shirt) just for these guys!

And truthfully, even our PD doesn't neccesarily make you a better performer.  Some of the best Wing staffers I've worked with only had Level II or III.  Lack of a GRW in no way decreased their effectiveness.

I wish CAP used grade in a meaningful way, and have a more military culture.  But it doesn't.

[Always Ready]

When I grow up and become a "REAL" CAP Officer...my goal is to be a 1st Lt as long as I can be. Worst case scenario - Capt. I'm not interested in command at this point or professional development past what I need to know to do my job. I'm a full time college student so CAPSOC (whatever it's now called, used to be ECI 13) is another annoying test that I don't want to do. It's not holding me back in my CAP career not having it done at this point. In the year and a half that I've been a SM, I've always been at college or in transit to college whenever my old squadron had SLS (Which makes total sense to schedule SLS when all the college students are away and not around ). Now, that my schedule has settled down/I've moved, I may go to SLS. I currently don't NEED to, nor do I have to. I plan on having my CC signing my CAPF 2 for me to get promoted to TFO (Edit-at the end of this week). Then I still have two years to get CAPSOC and SLS done. If it gets done, it gets done. If not, I'll be a "REAL" CAP Officer at that point so who cares...I'm still progressing in CAP (FO-TFO-1st Lt) and in my specialty rating(s), so what harm will it do?

[Flying Pig]

The problem with our rank is that is completely an internal recognition system, that only we understand, with no outside authority given to it whatsoever.  And without some serious CAP overhaul at the congressional level, thats all it will ever be.  It like coming to work and being completely happy being the guy in the mail room.  Someday I will promote, but frankly dont have the time, and with all of the other studying, sitting down and taking ECI 13 is pretty far down on my list.   And the reason its not a high priority, is that my rank has never prevented me from doing or offering anything to CAP. I am a Sq. Commander, Mission/CD Pilot, prior Deputy Commander for Cadets, Leadership Officer.  And managed to do it all as a 1Lt.   Ive been in CAP 15 years, and have never been asked to leave the room because a meeting was only for Majors and above, or Level 4 grads.

I look forward to SLS, CLC, UCC, I enjoy wearing the uniform and excelling and talking with other members.  But maybe when CAP decides to make PD worthwhile beyond what I am already volunteering to do with my time, more people will jump on board.  Honestly, that ECI 13 (or whatever the name is) is a joke.  Along with the ES Officer test booklet talking about Capt. Johnston going on an unauthorized SAR.  Good Grief...that thing was so lame I half expected a box of crayons to come in the packet with the book!

[Smithsonia]

We can all make a decision (speaking as adults here) make our own decisions as to the grade/rank to which we aspire. Some of our best and brightest are just fine at Lt. and Capt. People who give themselves to ES fully and forever, for instance.

Upgrading inside ES to the extent they become the finest pilots, observer, even IC -- is no small aspiration. I think of this like I do carrier pilots who want to be the point of the spear and when their flying time is up, they don't go to staff at the Pentagon, but quietly retire after doing their 20 years.

To think that their accomplishment in saving lives, risking their own, pivoting on performance in a single mindedness call to a particular and specific duty - To short sell these people is short-sell CAP. For the time being at least, accomplishing this goal, while I am able, is not short sighted what so ever. I split my time between the squadron and wing. I donate to each and serve both with distinction. Before I'm done, I may make Major, but that is not part of my grand plan.

I think of CAP service as 2 different groups. Those who do and those who teach. While I am able I want to do. I offer myself to the doing. Doing the smallest of tasks well. In 10 years or so when I slow down, I'll spend more time teaching. I'm not probably interested in command at any level. I am quite interested in upgrading history, upgrading PA, upgrading ES, upgrading my knowledge through experience and real world service. I don't think this is wrong headed. I don't think I'm slacking. I do think there are two different minded groups inside the cadre. I think both are doing their duty while exhibiting different aspirations.

[ol'fido]

I was discussing this thread with my group commander the other day and he suggested that we use something like the warrant officer system which every service but USAF/CAP has. Warrant Officers are technicians who concentrate in one specialty and move up in grade through a progression of time not necessarily of PD. Start out as a WO-1 and a few years later with no "oh-ohs" and your a WO-2. This would be perfect for those seniors who want to fly or do comms or concentrate on ground team. This would give those people who want to volunteer but don't have the time or the opportunity to take courses a way to advance and be recognized.

As for the significance of rank in CAP, I think it means less to some people who are professionally accomplished whether in the RM or civilian world. Usually the only people I see really worrying about rank are those that wouldn't have it outside of CAP or who value form over function. Most of the go getters and doers I have been associated withdon't care what rank you are as long as you do the job and don't worry about having your tushy kissed because you are of a certain rank.

[O-Rex]

The ICS300/400 are a different story.  I suspect we will lose some high level mission staff who will be offended if they lose their quals over it.

They should be no more offended than a licensed professional, i.e., Doctor, Lawyer, Teacher, CPA, etc., meeting the 'continuing education' requirements to keep their jobs, or soldiers and marines re-qualifying with their weapons and common tasks annually.  Or better yet, a pilot becoming offended because he has to take a check-ride.

Actually, it is a little like telling that Doctor that he needs to go back to school to take a few new courses.  Experience has shown that people will drop out because of these requirements, even the easy online courses.  I'm not saying that we shouldn't be doing them, but anytime you increase requirements you will lose people not willing to "pay the price" and that we are going to lose some good mission staff people over 300/400 requirement. 

Same goes for any increased requirements relating to promotion. 

We talk about 'officership' in CAP; that concept is based on officership in the military, which by the way, is a somewhat exclusive club, exclusivity based performance with a somewhat rigorous initiation process: with an appox. 25 to 30 percent dropout/washout rate in the officer ascension programs for the services in general, not all who enter will win the prize, so-to-speak.  And even then, promotions are competitive, and along the way some aspiring career officers who are found wanting will be shown the door.  It's how the military 'culls the heard' and promotes those who meet quality and performance criteria.

In CAP, you pay your (monetary) dues, take an on line course and maintain a pulse for six months, and bippity-boppity boo, you're a lieutenant.  So if somewhere along the line, a CAP member decides he or she it not going to play anymore because heaven-forbid we ask them to learn something new, then so be it, I see it as just the normal ebbs and flows and attrition of the organization.   

Remember that the courses we are talking about (ICS 300/400) are not intended for your rank-in-file member, but for those in ES Leadership positions, who will likely interface with their counterparts in other organizations who actually do ES for a living (and who incidentally, had to take those very same courses.)  If a person is too offended to step up and take a couple of weekend courses, they probably don't need to control aircraft, vehicles and people in a concerted effort to save lives.

And yes, even doctors go back to school: attending workshops and seminars that keep them up-to-date on the latest medical breakthroughs and techniques.  Most do so with the same zeal and enthusiasm that they had during their eight years in college, two years in internship, and a couple of more in residency to get where they are.

True professionals never stop 'paying their dues' (and I'm not talking about money.)

We are all volunteers in CAP, but a committed volunteer who takes on responsibility needs to continually improve his or her skill-set in the face of a changing environment and not gripe about it, otherwise we become the quintessential bumbling amateurs that some accuse us of being.

[RiverAux]

I wasn't making a value judgement --- Just stating the fact that we will lose ES staff people because of it and we should be prepared for that to happen. 

[Johnny Yuma]

If they're making a valued contribution to CAP.... Who cares???

I've seen no rank SM's be THE Go-To guy at both Unit and Wing level and plenty happy to be an SM.

I've also seen SM's catapault in grade and offer little to the organization other than looking really pretty with their fruit salad of PD and service ribbons on the uniform.

There are days as a Wing staffer I'd like to turn in my grade and be an SM. It makes it easier dealing with pushy field grade officers at times when you're the head of a Directorate only and not a subordinate in grade wing head of a Directorate. I have this bad habit of thinking out loud.

[JRChristenson]

I admittedly didn't read everything here... but here's my two cents and consider it a sign of agreement if I'm repeating someone else.

I have no real aspirations to rise through the grades for two main reasons.  Firstly, I just don't care about grade, I've had advanced leadership and interpersonal skills training that I don't feel the need to repeat to get a new shiny thing on my shoulder. 

And secondly, I am a volunteer who is also a full time student in a rigorous program and I have a part time job.  With my limited time available I have worked hard to develop as an ES officer and ITO officer as well as having gotten my Safety Tech rating as a safety officer.  I am GTM 1,2,3 and GTL, an MS working toward MO, an MSA, and if I ever get the time to take the ICS 300 course I'll go ahead with my GBD qualification (I could have it done now, but I'd just lose it when the new requirements come into effect).

To call me disgraceful is an insult and I have some choice words in private for whoever thinks this of my service.

[ol'fido]

1. CAP is a VOLUNTEER organization. People volunteer for different reasons and to different extents just like any other volunteer organization. Are we trying to say that if you don't want to volunteer to the same extent that some of us do that you should get out?

2. Rank doesn't matter as much to others as it does to some. Frankly, we put to much emphasis on it.  I guess it is like office politics in colleges and universities.... It gets vicious because the stakes are so small. A Lt. Col. rank and $.75 will but you a $.75 newspaper.

3. Some people in this organization tend to give orders to people as if they are backed up by the UCMJ.  If we are paying somebody a salary and benefits, we might be able to dictate professional development progress or whether someone can date someone else "off duty".  But since we aren't, we can't.

Let's worry about ourselves and our own personal development and quit worrying about people who are perfectly happy doing what they do. As long as they obey the regs and follow the rules of conduct, quit worrying about the ants while the elephants are stomping us to death.

[stratoflyer]

Well, recently I experienced someone who pushed the rank issue to much. Since rank in CAP does not necessarily reflect experience/knowledge/capabilities/resources...etc...and many times it's just handed out...worst is someone who just got a rank and treats you like scum just because of your butter bar. Doesn't matter how much more I know than that person...rank became an issue when it isn't when their a mission or a task to be done.

Again, rank in CAP has its purpose, but as far as how it relates to people and jobs within the org. it's a diferent beast.

[SJFedor]

Well, recently I experienced someone who pushed the rank issue to much. Since rank in CAP does not necessarily reflect experience/knowledge/capabilities/resources...etc...and many times it's just handed out...worst is someone who just got a rank and treats you like scum just because of your butter bar. Doesn't matter how much more I know than that person...rank became an issue when it isn't when their a mission or a task to be done.

Again, rank in CAP has its purpose, but as far as how it relates to people and jobs within the org. it's a diferent beast.

Again, we're getting rank and grade confused here.

Grade is what you wear on your shoulder. Be it a butter bar, railroad tracks, etc.

Rank is where you fall in the overall scheme, the chain. You might be a Lt Col in a squadron and serve as the Deputy Commander. Your CC may be a 1st Lt. Though you hold a superior grade to the commander, the commander, in fact, outranks you.

[MIKE]

Rank is where you fall in the overall scheme, the chain. You might be a Lt Col in a squadron and serve as the Deputy Commander. Your CC may be a 1st Lt. Though you hold a superior grade to the commander, the commander, in fact, outranks you.

And that is still not how it is defined by CAP.  Rank is seniority within a given grade.  Of two or more Lt Cols, the one with the earliest date of grade is senior.  It says nothing of "positional authority."

[lordmonar]

When I went the USAF NCO Academy we had a block of instuction about "authority".

There are several types of authority.

One of those types is "positional" authority.....that is someone has authority based on their position.  This type of authority may be legitmate or illegitmate.  The boss' secratary has illegitmate positional authority because she controls his information flow...while the deputy commander has legitamate positional authority.

Rank and and grade have some but not absolute relationship to authoirty. 

I used to deal with this sort of thing all the time.

What it boils down to is that grade and rank only have bearing on authority because the USAF (a) limits the number of people holding a particular grade, (b) does it best effort to eliminate any grade/authority mis-matches, (c) has clearly defined chains of command that allows for a quick resolution to any conflicts that come up.

So, in CAP position has nothing to do with rank as it is defined in out text....but also rank usually has nothing to do with authority so the they balance out.