1st Lt for Life...Oy!!!

[SarDragon]

[Wow, 17 posts since I started this before dinner. Gonna post anyway.]

Jeez, Sparky, lighten up! First the diamonds thread, now this one.

I spent 14 years as a Captain, and was perfectly comfortable with it. I'm only a Major now because I got tired of my CC nagging at me every week. Major does lend itself to doing better humourous things, too, but that's another story.

I can do what I do for my unit, group, and wing, regardless of my rank/grade. What matters are my skills and knowledge, and my ability to use them for CAP's missions. There isn't a single job that I do in CAP that has a rank prerequisite. None.

Being a Major might help validate certain aspects of interaction with the higher-ups, but it's not essential. The 30 on my Red Service Ribbon does just as well, IMHO.

YMMV.

[Pumbaa]

Yeah when I looked at the 13 in 2007 and saw the quality of it and then read that Al Gore is Vice President, I knew I was going to have trouble with it...  So I threw that piece of crap out.

Give me a test that looks like you don't care about it and has not been updated in 8 years...

well....  I don't care about it either...

Count me as a 1 LT for life....

I'll add to this also.. CAP is a volunteer 'job', I don't get paid.. rank means nothing in the grand scheme of things for me.  My 'real' job is in the defense industry designing things that will either kill the enemy or protect our boys and girls in uniform.  That's where MY rank really counts.

What I do as CAP aircrew is what counts and the rank means squat.  I am an observer, I do the photography and I do CD.  LT.. Lt Col... means nothing in that case either.  I am not going to spend more of my money to take tests, go places to attend school on my dime for something that does not really mean much in the grand scheme of things.

I can save lives, find people, do CD as well with my LT rank as I could as a Col.  As a matter of fact I am probably able to do it better as an LT because of the BS that comes along with rank.

[LtCol057]

I'm probably gonna po some people, and if I do, I apologize in advance.  If you're a "1LT for life", but you're doing a job in the unit, I commend you. That's your decision not to go any further in the Professional Dev.  But I have a problem when you stagnate in a grade if you're around the cadets. We try to motivate them to be promoted, to advance in the program. For example, I have a 1LT in my unit that was a Mitchell cadet. Since he's been a 1LT, he has done absolutely nothing. He was testing officer, until we relieved him because he wasn't doing the job. He was leaving the tests unsecured, never did a test inventory, he'd grumble and gripe everytime he had to grade a test.  We've ordered the (ECI 13) whatever it's called now,  twice for him. He won't take it. He doesn't have a job in the squadron. The ones he has had, he didn't do jack.  All he does is come to an occasional meeting and gripe. I really don't want him around my cadets. I think he's a bad example. I'm really thinking about telling him next time he comes to a cadet meeting, that either he gets off his tail, takes a job, and does the 13 or I don't want him around my cadets. 

[NIN]

I'm not going to go there with you Lt Col, Sir.  Because CAP grade will never have any meaning if such comments are continually made by CAP Officers and no action is ever taken to "beef up" what it means.

Beef up?

Please explain to me how you can "beef up" grade in CAP.

Until grade is tied to billet in some meaningful way (ie. you don't have a LtCol as the Personnel Officer working for the 1Lt Squadron Commander), grade is exactly as you suggest: A measure of training.  Hell, I have a chest full of ribbons that show how well trained I am, most of which I had to earn to gain my grade anyway, so why exactly do I need an oak leaf to denote training?

I see a two fold problem here:

Problem 1)  CAP is way, way too grade-conscious.  If I had a dollar for every dork I saw run out and drop $75 on a hat with farts and darts the second he made Major, I'd have enough to take you and me to a nice lunch.   Honestly? I did my best work as a captain. I stayed at Captain for 5 years, Major for, uh, let me think, 5 years as well.   I'm in another cadet program. I'm a captain. I get stuff done.  I don't need an oak leaf to get things done.  I've been a captain over there for over 2 years, and you know what?  Some SOB tries to promote me to Major he's gonna have a hell of a fight on his hands.  

But seriously,  I wonder how many CAP seniors we'd lose if we said "Hey, uh, yeah, we're gonna grade-level CAP by billet... If you're a LtCol sitting in a squadron assistant testing officer job, you're gonna be a 2Lt as of 1 Oct.." 

Problem 2) There is no consequence for non-performance at your grade level.  Yeah, yeah, cry me a river about doing performance evals on volunteers.  But I had a member who made Major under the previous commander, and honestly, the gentleman was incapable of tying his shoes without retraining 2 times a day.  He was the comm officer. Our comm program was non-existent.  He was the finance officer when I took over the squadron. I don't think he ever met two numbers that were meant to be added together in a coherent fashion, and he brought me the (late) finance paperwork in a plastic shopping bag.. Yeah...

My point is: If you're a LtCol, there needs to be some responsibility level asssociated with your grade, or you don't get to hang on to it.   In the real AF, you don't make LtCol and call AFPERCEN up and say "Uh, high, yeah, I wanna polish the seat of my trousers here in this cubicle at Bufftuck AFB doing TPS reports."  No, sorry, bucko, you're probably gonna be a squadron commander, etc.  Not capable?  The AF will ensure that you're shown the door, I hope.

All grade in CAP proves is that you can outlast the poor dumb SOB to your left or right in some of the most mind-numbing professional development exercises ever created.    Repeatedly.

[Camas]

What is your opinion of the "1st Lt for Life?"

Back to the original question. I have no problem with it. Like many wings we have a number of lieutenants and captains who have been around for a very long time. Sure, it'd be great if they'd promote and set the example but we have to allow for the fact that many members can't or won't - and that's fine. We can only hope and ask that they do their best in contributing to the success of the program. The point made by NIN is a valid one and something to consider. I have my opinions about comments like "CAP grade is a joke" and the "box top fast burner Lt Col's" but that wasn't the question.

[RiverAux]

I don't have any problems with someone who has worked to a certain point in the CAP PD system and then decides to stop at that level. 

By bigger problem is the people who bypass the PD system entirely through special and professional appointments and then never do another thing.   

[Pumbaa]

Like medal of honors and a whole bunch of stars on their shoulders?

[DogCollar]

Well, my post maybe null and void when the new CAPSOC on-line course is up and running, but the AFIADL 13 is a course very hard to take seriously.  It is sooooo out of date, had so may errors, that as I read it I found myself continuously thinking, "I am suppose to take CAP professional development seriously?  CAP can't update a required course in 8 years??"  I still took it, passed the test, and completed level II. 

If CAP wants more senior members to progress through the PD levels then CAP must do a better job of assuring that the PD tasks are up-to-date and the learning is useful!  Now, to the 1st Lt. for life question...if the individual is performing in a position well, is feeling satisfied with his/her involvement, then I have no problem with it.

[O-Rex]

CAP is a unique 'quasi-military' organization: rank is not competitive, nor does it guarantee a leadership position.

Strangley enough, someone did a study a couple of years back, and found that the distribution of rank in CAP was not that far off from USAF.  What makes CAP seem skewed or top-heavy is that higher ranking members are the more active ones.

If someone makes 1st Lt or Capt, and there he or she stays, then so be it: its their membership.

HOWEVER, how can they push cadets (and others) to progress in the program when they don't lead by example?

Sure, CAP oak leaves and 5 bucks will get you a cup of coffee, but if anything, it demonstrates that you cared enough to learn the program, and no one can take that from you.

In the process of getting our Garber or Wilson, some of us completed ACSC and even AWC: and in CAP or out, that's an accomplishment in itself in any venue.

Even if not for the rank, take advantage of the professional education opportunites in CAP, and add value to yourself, both as a CAP member, and personally.

[lordmonar]

O-Rex,

I understand your position about leading by example....how ever you can't compare cadet progression with SM progression.

Take your ideal cadet and your ideal SM.

The both join the same day. 

in 18 months the cadet is a 2d Lt (10 promotions) While your SM is just putting on 1st Lt (2 promotions).

By the time the cadet is putting on the super cadet is putting on his Spaatz 32 months after joining (he is a super cadet!) The Senior member is still a 1st Lt waiting for his 3 years TIG to run out.

So.....my point is....it is perfectly normal for cadets to see Senior Members not progressing.  We just don't progress at the same rate as they do.

[Trung Si Ma]

In anycase, CAP grade has its place.  It is supposed to reflect your training in CAP.

Totally untrue. 

Our version of "Stripes for Skills", means that a member with less than 30 days in CAP can be a Capt because they hold an IGI and passed Level 1 and OPSEC.

I have a friend joining who is an Army COL, he will be a CAP Lt Col before he has a month in the program.  His military skills as an FA officer will do him no good as our AEO.

[ColonelJack]

Sparky ...

You've brought up a pretty good point here, which seems to be drifting into territories that maybe it shouldn't.  But, fortunately, the good people of CAPTalk bring it back into line.  And that's because there are valid arguments on both sides of the issue.

I don't want to weigh in on one side or the other here, though, because I was one of those "fast-track box top Lt Cols" Mike referred to here.  But in my case it had nothing whatsoever to do with earning grade; it was all about the education.  I did each course as quickly as I possibly could, because I wanted to learn new things that would help me do my job better.  My CCs along the way put forward the promotion paperwork as soon as I was eligible -- up through major, anyway.  At that grade I became the unit CC.  So after earning my Wilson, my Group CC put in my promotion to lieutenant colonel.  And I had it exactly nine years after I received my butter bars.  Heck, my rank didn't last long enough on my shoulder to get tarnished!!

I still have my framed SOS and ACSC certificates on the wall of my office at home.  I wanted to enroll in AWC but chose to retire from CAP instead -- if I ever do come back in, which I yet may, then I'll enroll as soon as my grade is reinstated.  

But I have to say again with emphasis -- my "rapid advancement" had little or nothing to do with the rank that went with it.  I was in CAP for the marvelous educational opportunities that existed.  And even when I'd gone as far as I could go without becoming a corporate officer, I was still looking for the classes or courses that would expand my horizons.

And Nin ... to give you an idea how long ago it was ... you had to wait until you made Lt Col to get your farts and darts hat -- and they were only $45 at MCSS.

Jack

[Major Carrales]

In anycase, CAP grade has its place.  It is supposed to reflect your training in CAP.

Totally untrue. 

Our version of "Stripes for Skills", means that a member with less than 30 days in CAP can be a Capt because they hold an IGI and passed Level 1 and OPSEC.

I have a friend joining who is an Army COL, he will be a CAP Lt Col before he has a month in the program.  His military skills as an FA officer will do him no good as our AEO.

Here is where people misunderstand.  The point of professional appointments and grade for pilots et al is to reflect training that they did not achieve in CAP.  You are "bumped up" for these things for having knowledge and skills you bring to CAP.  Thus, the accounant that serves as a finance officer who was trained and and a degree in Accounting is actually very well trained for their job.  The CFI that joins and become a Captain is quite well trained, I think everyone would agree.  The Spaatz cadet also has a great deal of training...heck, they baically completed what amounts to "CAP ROTC."

One could also say the same for prior military.  They bring in skill sets that, if used, justify the promotion.

What adds "boogers to the oatmeal" is when one of these joins and does not follow their skill set.  In our Group, ur group commander will not approve a "special promotion" if that CAP Officer has not taken a related staff position.  Thus, the CFI does not get to be a Captain unless he/she is not taking some role in the aviation program as a maintenance officer, assist stan/eval, ops officer or the like.

These people sometimes "stagnate," however, it is mostly because they are backfilling.

[Major Carrales]

I'm not going to go there with you Lt Col, Sir.  Because CAP grade will never have any meaning if such comments are continually made by CAP Officers and no action is ever taken to "beef up" what it means.

Beef up?

Please explain to me how you can "beef up" grade in CAP.

I am surprised at you NIN, "beef up" means to add substance, rigor and relevance to something.  I wouldn't go so far as to tie it to a billet, however, placing elements that make it more meaningful might not be a bad idea.  I'm not advocating "USAFR lite" like Dennis Nall sometimes tries to push for, but something that reflected more rigor and relevance.

I really have no problem with the concept of "1st Lt for Life," so long as the job is getting done.  Maybe the Squadron level could be redesigned to reflect some of your points.

[wuzafuzz]

I think the primary question is whether a member contributes to our mission.  If someone is proficient in their chosen specialty I don't care what grade insignia, if any, is on their uniform.  Their skills may be gained within CAP or elsewhere.  They don't have to be "homegrown" in a way that earns CAP grade to be valuable to the mission.  

My squadron has several members who are also members of the local sheriff's SAR team.  They bring a lot of experience and professionalism to the table. I would never dream of minimizing their contributions because they are "only" 1st Lieutenants, or because they didn't earn their chops "the CAP way."  The situation is similar for plenty of other specialties, comm, finance, etc.  If they never "promote" it doesn't affect their performance in the least.

Perception is the other side of the coin.  Are some outsiders confused by our use of grade?  Of course.  Do they assume our Lieutenants are still wearing training wheels?  Possibly.  

This may sound like thread drift, but the issues are intertwined.  I think we would be better served by finding another way of recognizing accomplishments, at least on the senior member side of the house.  (Cadets ARE motivated by promotions.)  If we just gotta have grade, invent a different system that doesn't have the rest of the world scratching their heads when they work with us.  Sure, that's just the way it is, but it doesn't have to be.

[pixelwonk]

Like re-chow, 1st Lt is so much better the second time around.

[bosshawk]

Trung Si Ma: I have to politely disagree with your comment about your FA friend Colonel.  He has many military skills beyond being an Artillery Officer that are perfectly appropriate for CAP.  He has demonstrated leadership skills, organizatonal skills, levels of military education far beyond anything in CAP, probably spent a tour as a service school instructor, has expertise in logistics and transportation, etc.

I was a Military Intelligence Officer for most of my career.  I have seldom used my MI skills in CAP, except when I performed as a mission intel officer, but my other skills certainly have come in handy on many occasions.  I was a service school instructor(prefix 5), a commander several times, held Pentagon level staff positions,was the G2 Air of a Field Army, ran two motor pools, graduated from the Officer Basic and Advanced Courses, Army Command and General Staff College, the Air War College, the Special Warfare School, the Air Ground Operations School, have a Masters Degree, etc.  Lots of those skills are relevant to CAP, if and when used.

One of my pet peeves is getting non-military experienced officers in CAP to recognize the skills that former RM officers and NCOs bring to the fray and to use those skills and that experience.  Don't know exactly why, but some folks are really reluctant to use the ex-mil skills to their best advantage.

[RiverAux]

One of my pet peeves is getting non-military experienced officers in CAP to recognize the skills that former RM officers and NCOs bring to the fray and to use those skills and that experience. 

Which is more than balanced out by the fact that CAP doesn't recognize the skill sets of civilians unless they are some sort of "professional". 

For example, a woman who started what is now a multi-million dollar a year busin
ess with hundreds of employees has to start at the bottom while a person who may have been a Lieutenant in the submarine service 40 years ago, but who has been working as a farmer since then, jumps right to Captain. 

[O-Rex]

O-Rex,

I understand your position about leading by example....how ever you can't compare cadet progression with SM progression.

Take your ideal cadet and your ideal SM.

The both join the same day. 

in 18 months the cadet is a 2d Lt (10 promotions) While your SM is just putting on 1st Lt (2 promotions).

By the time the cadet is putting on the super cadet is putting on his Spaatz 32 months after joining (he is a super cadet!) The Senior member is still a 1st Lt waiting for his 3 years TIG to run out.

So.....my point is....it is perfectly normal for cadets to see Senior Members not progressing.  We just don't progress at the same rate as they do.

Point taken, it's a 'given' that it takes seniors longer to get promoted (as it should be) but when you have a senior member who has been a First Lieutenant longer than the cadet has been alive, that's another thing entirely, and we DO have some of those.

My vision of a senior setting the example is progressing through the program at a steady pace; maybe not fast-tracking, but progressing nonetheless.

[RiverAux]

I really don't think that cadets really care whether or not a senior member advances in rank.  Now, they sure as heck will notice if they are not setting a good example as far as uniforms, customs and courtesies, and general CAP activity.