How to handle TRANSGENDER Cadet: biology or choice?

[CAPDCCMOM]

THRAWN, I have the exact same questions. Officially, we have no official policy. Will this protect those of us that work in Cadet Programs when a family on either side of this thorny issue decides to take legal action.

No offense everybody, but "deal with these issues as they happen," and "do your best...use your best judgement," is not a policy. "I was just following the policy that we don't really have yet, because we have appointed several committees a while back," does not sound like a sound legal defense.

Like many others here, I support the LGBT community. In my youth I had many friends that had to keep their identity a safely guarded secret, to the point of living false lives and lies. I am happy that those days are behind us. However, logistically speaking we need guidance and real policy. Back in our History we can be sure that there were many members of the LGBT community in CAP. They lived in a constant fear of being discovered. Today, these same individuals will demand, and rightfully so, their equal place at the table and in activities. We must create the environment that protects the dignity and respect of all involved.

[Ned]

So, officially, there is no "official" policy. In the interim, is there a chance of something in the form of a written order from the NC to all subordinate commanders that until such time a regulatory policy is adopted, that the "legal gender" of the member be used as the decision point? Which brings up another question: what is the "legal gender"? Is it what appears on the license/state issued ID? If so, there are some states where that can be changed and it does not have to match what is on other "legally acceptable" documents.... Or is it the gender indicated on the birth certificate, which can also be changed...

Non-concur.

When the general announces the official policy, it is the official policy until it changes.  Whether it is written down at the time goes to how effectively it is communicated, not whether the policy is official or not.

And "legal gender" means whatever it means in the state concerned.  Not all the states are the same, but for our purposes, it is generally the gender reflected on official government documents, like birth certificates, government IDs, etc.  Every state has a process to allow "correction" of these kinds of documents.  So when the state changes their recognition of an individual's gender, so would we.  Just show us the associated paperwork.

And keep in mind that laws change, and some states will have different standards to recognize gender change.  Just like with the "cadet medication issues," it is unlikely that NHQ can ever realistically keep track of the 50 states' differing laws, let alone the odd Commonwealth and foreign countries where we have cadets.  That's why we have legal officers in each state - to keep track of local laws and advise commanders.

I like talking with legal officers.  They're nice people.  And standing by to help you in these kinds of circumstances.

Remember, we have an official policy.  It may or may not change as the commanders direct, but we have a policy.  And we at the NHQ staff are happy to work with CP officers and commanders to explain and help implement it.

Ned Lee
Col, CAP
National Cadet Program Manager

[JeffDG]

Remember, we have an official policy.  It may or may not change as the commanders direct, but we have a policy.  And we at the NHQ staff are happy to work with CP officers and commanders to explain and help implement it.

Ned Lee
Col, CAP
National Cadet Program Manager

You may have official policy, but until such time as the echelons-above-reality choose to communicate that policy to those in the field, it doesn't really exist.

[THRAWN]

So, officially, there is no "official" policy. In the interim, is there a chance of something in the form of a written order from the NC to all subordinate commanders that until such time a regulatory policy is adopted, that the "legal gender" of the member be used as the decision point? Which brings up another question: what is the "legal gender"? Is it what appears on the license/state issued ID? If so, there are some states where that can be changed and it does not have to match what is on other "legally acceptable" documents.... Or is it the gender indicated on the birth certificate, which can also be changed...

Non-concur.

When the general announces the official policy, it is the official policy until it changes.  Whether it is written down at the time goes to how effectively it is communicated, not whether the policy is official or not.

And "legal gender" means whatever it means in the state concerned.  Not all the states are the same, but for our purposes, it is generally the gender reflected on official government documents, like birth certificates, government IDs, etc.  Every state has a process to allow "correction" of these kinds of documents.  So when the state changes their recognition of an individual's gender, so would we.  Just show us the associated paperwork.

And keep in mind that laws change, and some states will have different standards to recognize gender change.  Just like with the "cadet medication issues," it is unlikely that NHQ can ever realistically keep track of the 50 states' differing laws, let alone the odd Commonwealth and foreign countries where we have cadets.  That's why we have legal officers in each state - to keep track of local laws and advise commanders.

I like talking with legal officers.  They're nice people.  And standing by to help you in these kinds of circumstances.

Remember, we have an official policy.  It may or may not change as the commanders direct, but we have a policy.  And we at the NHQ staff are happy to work with CP officers and commanders to explain and help implement it.

Ned Lee
Col, CAP
National Cadet Program Manager

In a perfect world, sure it works that way. but VOCO in this case? It goes whisper down the lane through the chain to the squadron commander in Toledo? What happens when the genders on the docs don't match? Which one is the real gender? 39-2 has a nice chart that  puts the state issued ID as acceptable in tandem with a birth certificate. If those two documents have different genders, what is the deciding factor? I'm sure Maj Gen Vazquez has given this some thought. It would be nice to have those thoughts on this very sensitive subject directly given to those that are being confronted with it.

[Holding Pattern]

What happens when the genders on the docs don't match? Which one is the real gender? 39-2 has a nice chart that  puts the state issued ID as acceptable in tandem with a birth certificate. If those two documents have different genders, what is the deciding factor? I'm sure Maj Gen Vazquez has given this some thought. It would be nice to have those thoughts on this very sensitive subject directly given to those that are being confronted with it.

This has been covered. The document with the latest date wins.

[THRAWN]

What happens when the genders on the docs don't match? Which one is the real gender? 39-2 has a nice chart that  puts the state issued ID as acceptable in tandem with a birth certificate. If those two documents have different genders, what is the deciding factor? I'm sure Maj Gen Vazquez has given this some thought. It would be nice to have those thoughts on this very sensitive subject directly given to those that are being confronted with it.

This has been covered. The document with the latest date wins.

Sorry if I missed that, but can you quote it? If that's the case, then the chart in 39-2 is useless because I guarantee that anybody with a license was issued that well after their birth certificate.

[Ned]

You may have official policy, but until such time as the echelons-above-reality choose to communicate that policy to those in the field, it doesn't really exist.

We (you, me, and CAP) have an official policy.

I can only agree that written policies are more easily communicated, but that doesn't mean they are not official.

Look, as a practical matter we are not talking about court- martialing anyone for not following a policy they weren't aware of.  If anyone doesn't know what the policy is, you and I can tell them.  If anyone calls NHQ, they will be told the policy.  All of us have a responsibility to follow the polices of CAP, whether they are written or otherwise expressed.

Rather than focusing on the best way to express a policy, I encourage the discussion of what changes, if any, we should make to our policy.

I'd love to see a discussion of how we should reach out to members, parents, and stakeholders about our policies and the educational materials, if any, we should make available to our leaders to help them work through the very real issues we all face at the local units.

[CAPDCCMOM]

  Did I really just read that WE have a policy, but it is not written down anywhere and if we need to know what it is call HQ and get VOCO? In an issue as potentially nightmarish as this, to go VOCO is not only very risky, in my humble opinion, dangerous.

We need a written policy with out delay. PLEASE.

[JeffDG]

You may have official policy, but until such time as the echelons-above-reality choose to communicate that policy to those in the field, it doesn't really exist.

We (you, me, and CAP) have an official policy.

If that policy has not been effectively communicated to those actually charged with implementing that policy (local commanders), then no.  You have the idea of a policy, but the policy doesn't actually exist in a meaningful or practical way.

I can only agree that written policies are more easily communicated, but that doesn't mean they are not official.

I think it's clear here that the "policy" has not been communicated in any effective way to local commanders.  It's a policy aspiration until such time as that happens.  I really don't care how it's communicated, but some policy that exists only within the echelons-above-reality that they somehow magically expect to be implemented by those they've never told it exists, is not a policy for all intents and purposes.

Rather than focusing on the best way to express a policy, I encourage the discussion of what changes, if any, we should make to our policy.

I don't care if it's the "best way to express a policy", I just care that the "policy" actually be expressed to those charged with implementation therof.

I'd love to see a discussion of how we should reach out to members, parents, and stakeholders about our policies and the educational materials, if any, we should make available to our leaders to help them work through the very real issues we all face at the local units.

E-mail to all commanders.  Here's the policy.  Done.  So long as no communications goes out to local units, the policy is of no effect.  May as well not have it.

[Ned]

We need a written policy with out delay. PLEASE.

I hear you.  I think it is all of our preference that we have a policy that is easily accessible and understood by the membership, parents, and stakeholders.  I'm looking in the KB thing to see if that helps.

But let's put this in perspective,  For over 70 years we have survived just fine without any policy at all, relying on the common sense and experience of members like you.  And the world has not ended.  No one has been hurt, no lawsuits, and million or so cadets have taken steps to become Dynamic American Aerospace Leaders. 

As soon as the current committee has presented their recommendations and the command group has decided what changes, if any, to make to our existing policy, I have every confidence that it will appear in one or more CAP regulations or other documents.

It bears repeating that anyone who needs guidance on our existing policy can confer with their chain of command and NHQ to receive the necessary support and guidance.

Please, lets talk about substance of what the policy is or should be rather than form in which it is communicated.

Please.

[JeffDG]

Again, until the "policy" is communicated in some way, it's a "policy aspiration" not an "existing policy".  If the committee is still working, then the policy doesn't exist at all.

[JeffDG]

Please, lets talk about substance of what the policy is or should be rather than form in which it is communicated.

I really don't care what the substance of the policy is.  I do care that it be communicated IN SOME FORM.  I don't care what the form is.  But until that is done, it's a completely ineffective "policy".

[Holding Pattern]

What happens when the genders on the docs don't match? Which one is the real gender? 39-2 has a nice chart that  puts the state issued ID as acceptable in tandem with a birth certificate. If those two documents have different genders, what is the deciding factor? I'm sure Maj Gen Vazquez has given this some thought. It would be nice to have those thoughts on this very sensitive subject directly given to those that are being confronted with it.

This has been covered. The document with the latest date wins.

Sorry if I missed that, but can you quote it? If that's the case, then the chart in 39-2 is useless because I guarantee that anybody with a license was issued that well after their birth certificate.

That would be a later date. If someone is born january 1, 1995, and their birth cert says "MALE," and their state ID dated January 1, 2016 says "FEMALE", the state ID wins.

[Chappie]

Not to belabor the issue....the policy is there.  Unfortunately, the information if sent to a commander in a email is only as good as the commander's memory or the passing along of corporate knowledge.

Also keep in mind that CAP committee work is tedious and the process takes time.   The committee members are individuals just like you and me (having served on my fair-share).   They can meet for months via email/Skype/FreeConference call (or other methods) deliberating and exchanging ideas before their proposal/report is concluded and submitted. 

This issue is one that is being taking very seriously and those who have been selected to serve on the committees are knowledgeable folks.  They will get it right.
Hence, my simple counsel offered before:  contact Wing Legal.  They should be in a position to know/convey the respective state's legal stance and know who to contact at NHQ for the CAP policy.   Through my personal experiences, the legal officer is my best friend.   It's one thing to think about a situation wearing the cross, but another where you have to think in terms of the CAP corporation.  Echoing Ned's earlier remarks, "I like talking with legal officers.  They're nice people."   They have stood by/with me in a couple of situations for which I am grateful for.



     

[THRAWN]

What happens when the genders on the docs don't match? Which one is the real gender? 39-2 has a nice chart that  puts the state issued ID as acceptable in tandem with a birth certificate. If those two documents have different genders, what is the deciding factor? I'm sure Maj Gen Vazquez has given this some thought. It would be nice to have those thoughts on this very sensitive subject directly given to those that are being confronted with it.

This has been covered. The document with the latest date wins.

Sorry if I missed that, but can you quote it? If that's the case, then the chart in 39-2 is useless because I guarantee that anybody with a license was issued that well after their birth certificate.

That would be a later date. If someone is born january 1, 1995, and their birth cert says "MALE," and their state ID dated January 1, 2016 says "FEMALE", the state ID wins.

Didn't answer the question. Where is that covered? Is it an official "policy" or more CAPTALK Tales?

[Holding Pattern]

What happens when the genders on the docs don't match? Which one is the real gender? 39-2 has a nice chart that  puts the state issued ID as acceptable in tandem with a birth certificate. If those two documents have different genders, what is the deciding factor? I'm sure Maj Gen Vazquez has given this some thought. It would be nice to have those thoughts on this very sensitive subject directly given to those that are being confronted with it.

This has been covered. The document with the latest date wins.

Sorry if I missed that, but can you quote it? If that's the case, then the chart in 39-2 is useless because I guarantee that anybody with a license was issued that well after their birth certificate.

That would be a later date. If someone is born january 1, 1995, and their birth cert says "MALE," and their state ID dated January 1, 2016 says "FEMALE", the state ID wins.

Didn't answer the question. Where is that covered? Is it an official "policy" or more CAPTALK Tales?

So, officially, there is no "official" policy. In the interim, is there a chance of something in the form of a written order from the NC to all subordinate commanders that until such time a regulatory policy is adopted, that the "legal gender" of the member be used as the decision point? Which brings up another question: what is the "legal gender"? Is it what appears on the license/state issued ID? If so, there are some states where that can be changed and it does not have to match what is on other "legally acceptable" documents.... Or is it the gender indicated on the birth certificate, which can also be changed...

Non-concur.

When the general announces the official policy, it is the official policy until it changes.  Whether it is written down at the time goes to how effectively it is communicated, not whether the policy is official or not.

And "legal gender" means whatever it means in the state concerned.  Not all the states are the same, but for our purposes, it is generally the gender reflected on official government documents, like birth certificates, government IDs, etc.  Every state has a process to allow "correction" of these kinds of documents.  So when the state changes their recognition of an individual's gender, so would we.  Just show us the associated paperwork.

And keep in mind that laws change, and some states will have different standards to recognize gender change.  Just like with the "cadet medication issues," it is unlikely that NHQ can ever realistically keep track of the 50 states' differing laws, let alone the odd Commonwealth and foreign countries where we have cadets.  That's why we have legal officers in each state - to keep track of local laws and advise commanders.

I like talking with legal officers.  They're nice people.  And standing by to help you in these kinds of circumstances.

Remember, we have an official policy.  It may or may not change as the commanders direct, but we have a policy.  And we at the NHQ staff are happy to work with CP officers and commanders to explain and help implement it.

Ned Lee
Col, CAP
National Cadet Program Manager

The bolded plus common sense equals what I posted. And really, everything Ned posted there is also common sense. If you think it isn't so common, use his and follow that directive.

[THRAWN]

Not to belabor the issue....the policy is there. Unfortunately, the information if sent to a commander in a email is only as good as the commander's memory or the passing along of corporate knowledge.

Hence, my simple counsel offered before:  contact Wing Legal.  They should be in a position to know/convey the respective state's legal stance and know who to contact at NHQ for the CAP policy.   Through my personal experiences, the legal officer is my best friend.   It's one thing to think about a situation wearing the cross, but another where you have to think in terms of the CAP corporation.  Echoing Ned's earlier remarks, "I like talking with legal officers.  They're nice people."   They have stood by/with me in a couple of situations for which I am grateful for.

And an "official policy" that is spoken is better? Commanders should not have to contact their lawyers about this. Issue a policy that says, in one sentence, "When a trans(whatever) applicant joins CAP, their gender identity is based on the government issued ID with the latest date." No confusion, no ambiguity that seems to be the driving energy of the legal profession, no question about how that applicant is to be identified.

[JeffDG]

Not to belabor the issue....the policy is there.  Unfortunately, the information if sent to a commander in a email is only as good as the commander's memory or the passing along of corporate knowledge.

Hence, my simple counsel offered before:  contact Wing Legal.  They should be in a position to know/convey the respective state's legal stance and know who to contact at NHQ for the CAP policy.   Through my personal experiences, the legal officer is my best friend.   It's one thing to think about a situation wearing the cross, but another where you have to think in terms of the CAP corporation.  Echoing Ned's earlier remarks, "I like talking with legal officers.  They're nice people."   They have stood by/with me in a couple of situations for which I am grateful for.

It's orders of magnitude better than a "policy" where there has been no attempt to communicate it outside the echelons-above-reality.

[THRAWN]

What happens when the genders on the docs don't match? Which one is the real gender? 39-2 has a nice chart that  puts the state issued ID as acceptable in tandem with a birth certificate. If those two documents have different genders, what is the deciding factor? I'm sure Maj Gen Vazquez has given this some thought. It would be nice to have those thoughts on this very sensitive subject directly given to those that are being confronted with it.

This has been covered. The document with the latest date wins.

Sorry if I missed that, but can you quote it? If that's the case, then the chart in 39-2 is useless because I guarantee that anybody with a license was issued that well after their birth certificate.

That would be a later date. If someone is born january 1, 1995, and their birth cert says "MALE," and their state ID dated January 1, 2016 says "FEMALE", the state ID wins.

Didn't answer the question. Where is that covered? Is it an official "policy" or more CAPTALK Tales?

So, officially, there is no "official" policy. In the interim, is there a chance of something in the form of a written order from the NC to all subordinate commanders that until such time a regulatory policy is adopted, that the "legal gender" of the member be used as the decision point? Which brings up another question: what is the "legal gender"? Is it what appears on the license/state issued ID? If so, there are some states where that can be changed and it does not have to match what is on other "legally acceptable" documents.... Or is it the gender indicated on the birth certificate, which can also be changed...

Non-concur.

When the general announces the official policy, it is the official policy until it changes.  Whether it is written down at the time goes to how effectively it is communicated, not whether the policy is official or not.

And "legal gender" means whatever it means in the state concerned.  Not all the states are the same, but for our purposes, it is generally the gender reflected on official government documents, like birth certificates, government IDs, etc.  Every state has a process to allow "correction" of these kinds of documents.  So when the state changes their recognition of an individual's gender, so would we.  Just show us the associated paperwork.

And keep in mind that laws change, and some states will have different standards to recognize gender change.  Just like with the "cadet medication issues," it is unlikely that NHQ can ever realistically keep track of the 50 states' differing laws, let alone the odd Commonwealth and foreign countries where we have cadets.  That's why we have legal officers in each state - to keep track of local laws and advise commanders.

I like talking with legal officers.  They're nice people.  And standing by to help you in these kinds of circumstances.

Remember, we have an official policy.  It may or may not change as the commanders direct, but we have a policy.  And we at the NHQ staff are happy to work with CP officers and commanders to explain and help implement it.

Ned Lee
Col, CAP
National Cadet Program Manager

The bolded plus common sense equals what I posted.

Common sense? What is common sense to one, makes no sense to another. You know that. If it is in writing, it's real. If it is in fact official, there should be no issue getting it in writing.

[Spaceman3750]

Maybe I missed it, but I'm keenly interested in what NHQ's thoughts on cadet billeting with this situation are. I know it's been asked several times but I'm not sure if I missed the answer. "Treat them like the state treats them" works when we're just talking about regular meetings and activities, but I have some concerns for overnight activities.

My understanding of this situation is that we do not want to cause negative psychological consequences on a young person who is already dealing with the stresses of growing up, plus the stress of dealing with their own gender identity. I get that, and even support it to some extent. However, when we extend this policy to overnight cadet activities, we now marginalize the potential concerns and "uncomfortableness" of the majority of cadets who do identify with their biological gender, in favor of preventing "unfomfortableness" on the part of the minority that do not. And that is not cool in my book either - we should not be inflicting potential harm on one group of youths in order to prevent potential harm to another. I think billeting separately is a somewhat fair compromise, but not every activity will have that option available. Then what do we do?

As far as seniors go, I really don't care, for both regular activities and overnight. Adults are adults, and therefore are (should be) capable of managing their own feelings and "uncomfortableness" in a way that both accomplishes the mission and ensures that their own issues are resolved.

I don't think my concerns are particularly unique nor are my views new. I'm just as eager as everyone else is to see how this shakes out. And as far as the publication of a policy goes, I know we don't want to talk about it Ned, but we really do need something written. I think that there is a very rational fear (given the litigious state of our society) among some of our commanders and CP officers that they may be named personally in a lawsuit from either camp, and therefore want to be able to point to a policy and state "The actions I took were consistent with Civil Air Patrol policy XYZ, published ABC, that states LMNOP." As leaders, it is our job to help our followers do their job. If they have specific concerns related to their job, isn't it then our job to ensure those concerns are addressed as best as possible? In this case, "as best as possible" means "let's get something in writing", even if it is interim.