Cadet with Alcohol Misdemeanor

[Reacher]

I purposely created a throwaway for this question.

I have a cadet who was caught drinking at a school function. Not sure of all the details, but he was sentenced to community service, and received a misdemeanor. Would this be grounds for dismissal? Cadet in question is 17, plans to join the Marines, but has to wait until he is 18 because of this. Your thoughts are appreciated.

I can divulge a few more details if the need arises. Just trying to keep privacy in check.

[Eclipse]

Would this be grounds for dismissal?

Yes.

[lordmonar]

By the regs.   Yes it is grounds for termination.  Without knowing any details...... Whether or not I would do any thing would be based on the situation at hand.

[a2capt]

OTOH, is dismissal the reasonable option? Could the cadet perhaps get some guidance, mentorship, if they're genuinely open to it from someone who cares, via this avenue?

Is there a chance where someone could make a difference instead of kicking to the curb?

[Eclipse]

Yes.

[NIN]

IMHO, termination is your last action, generally speaking. It should be preceded by verbal & written counselings, and other administrative actions (demotion or suspensions) with corrective action. (Obviously, sometimes it is appropriate to go right to termination)

I had a c/TSgt improvise an incendiary device in an attempt to retaliate against an upperclassman who was doing things to him and his buddies (typical HS-style crap). He basically tried to firebomb a guy's car in the school parking lot (failing miserably and getting caught).

Sure, it was outside CAP, but it was not the kind of behavior you want to condone and encourage among cadet NCOs.  I had to make an example. He got a written counseling and two-grade demotion to c/ SrA with a clear path to gaining his grade back.  (This course of action was actually decided in discussion with his parents)

He decided his grade wasn't that important and refused to follow thru on the earn-back.  CAPF 2B followed.

[Private Investigator]

The short answer is "YES" 

[JeffDG]

Just out of curiosity, on what grounds could you terminate a cadet for this?

The regulation gives much less discretionary latitude to commanders for cadets than for seniors.

Potentially "Misconduct", but I would argue that termination for Cause would not be applicable:

e. Cause. Termination for Cause is defined as any cadet who has been convicted of any
offense (or suffered a pattern of arrests) that would disqualify such cadet from senior
membership in CAP as described in CAPR 39-2, Civil Air Patrol Membership, paragraph 3-2,
may have their membership terminated for cause.

A misdemeanor conviction does not disqualify an individual for senior membership

[Eclipse]

Well, you could argue that...

It's a clear violation of the cadet oath, core values, and a tenant of the DDR program.

At a minimum, disciplinary action would be called for.  A one-time mistake shouldn't end a cadet,
but it's certainly grounds for very direct conversations.

NIN's approach is probably the best, without knowing anything else about the situation or this cadet.
Clearly a number of messages are not getting through.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

First easy, short answer: yes.  The commanders of any of the cadet/composite squadrons I served in would probably have done it without a moment's hesitation.

Second not so easy, more difficult answer: If I were the unit commander, I would want to know the exact circumstances.

It is very easy for us, as adults, to pronounce judgement, but I would wager that there are many of us who took an illegal pull underage.  I did, but it was not at a school function, and I was never in trouble with the law over it.  However, on one occasion, my dad caught me trying to sneak in late at night with Schnapps on my breath...I would have rather have had to deal with the police, let's just say that and I never did it again.

School corporations are different now than back in my day (late '70s/early '80s), with "zero tolerance" policies from everything from smoking to fighting.  My high school actually designated an area outside the Industrial Arts building where you could smoke, and my grade school's answer to playground fights were to put the two "combatants" in a boxing ring with boxing gloves and head protection and let them batter one another until they had no energy.  The school nurse had to oversee it, and I know she hated it.

I would say that if the Marines would not have a problem with him, I would not either.

[lordmonar]

Bottom line as a commander:

If it is in the best interest of CAP, your unit, and good order and discipline.....then terminate.

Seek guidance from wing/group...and move on.

Having said that......if their continued membership does not hinder your operations....then maybe some lesser punishment may be in order. 

Don't always reach for the sledge hammer...if all you need is a mallet.

[Eclipse]

I would say that if the Marines would not have a problem with him, I would not either.

He won't be a Marine now until he's 18, specifically >because< of this issue, and if he gets caught again after raising his
hand, he's likely to be out, not to mention that once he's a Marine, he will no longer be a cadet, anyway.

Which isn't to say the same disciplinary action shouldn't be considered for the same offense if he was a Senior Member, either.

[JeffDG]

Well, you could argue that...

It's a clear violation of the cadet oath, core values, and a tenant of the DDR program.

At a minimum, disciplinary action would be called for.  A one-time mistake shouldn't end a cadet,
but it's certainly grounds for very direct conversations.

NIN's approach is probably the best, without knowing anything else about the situation or this cadet.
Clearly a number of messages are not getting through.

Texas Wing recently had a cadet 2B kicked back at them by the MARP because they used "insubordination" as the reason, which is not listed in the regulation as a reason to terminate a cadet member.

[lordmonar]

Well, you could argue that...

It's a clear violation of the cadet oath, core values, and a tenant of the DDR program.

At a minimum, disciplinary action would be called for.  A one-time mistake shouldn't end a cadet,
but it's certainly grounds for very direct conversations.

NIN's approach is probably the best, without knowing anything else about the situation or this cadet.
Clearly a number of messages are not getting through.

Texas Wing recently had a cadet 2B kicked back at them by the MARP because they used "insubordination" as the reason, which is not listed in the regulation as a reason to terminate a cadet member.

It is too.   Para 3.d.5  It is one of the things listed under misconduct.
God I hate when people can't read the freaking regulations.    Took me less then 30 seconds to pull up the reg and find it!

[Майор Хаткевич]

That MARP case seemed to hint at issues in the process of how it was handled.

[Flying Pig]

Well.......Im glad I never got caught!!   But to vague to really comment on.  I would hate to see a kid tossed for making a kid mistake.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Well.......Im glad I never got caught!!   But to vague to really comment on.  I would hate to see a kid tossed for making a kid mistake.

It's not a mistake, unless he thought it was funky carbonated drinks. He broke the law. Now, is the severity enough to remove him from CAP? Depends. 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Well.......Im glad I never got caught!!   But to vague to really comment on.  I would hate to see a kid tossed for making a kid mistake.

It's not a mistake, unless he thought it was funky carbonated drinks. He broke the law. Now, is the severity enough to remove him from CAP? Depends.

The parents need to take some responsibility too, since he was still legally a minor.

My dad ripping me a new one for several hours after I came home with booze on my breath certainly fell under "parental responsibility"...he made it clear that what I did was stupid (loudly) that it was against the law (loudly) and that if I ever did it again he would call the police on me himself (loudly).  He also grounded me for two weeks, and when he said "grounded," he meant grounded.

It had its deterrent and punitive effects, as my dad no doubt intended.  After I became an adult, we would joke about it but it certainly was not a joke to an intoxicated 16 (I think) year old feeling like a mouse being faced down by a king cobra.

I knew exactly what I was doing.  I was drinking liquor, not something that just happened to be spearmint-flavoured.  Where I lost the gamble was thinking my dad would be in bed asleep and that I could sneak past him and crash in my bedroom.

If I were the CC, I would call the parents in too and see what they thought of their son remaining in CAP, if they thought he should be kicked out or not (my dad would have agreed to it, since his Army veteran side would have said my actions disgraced the uniform).

[Майор Хаткевич]

I may be in the minority, but I have a hard time blaming parents for something like this.

[JeffDG]

Well, you could argue that...

It's a clear violation of the cadet oath, core values, and a tenant of the DDR program.

At a minimum, disciplinary action would be called for.  A one-time mistake shouldn't end a cadet,
but it's certainly grounds for very direct conversations.

NIN's approach is probably the best, without knowing anything else about the situation or this cadet.
Clearly a number of messages are not getting through.

Texas Wing recently had a cadet 2B kicked back at them by the MARP because they used "insubordination" as the reason, which is not listed in the regulation as a reason to terminate a cadet member.

It is too.   Para 3.d.5  It is one of the things listed under misconduct.

To be pedantic, termination for Misconduct is different than termination for Cause.