Criticism of Rangers & Blue Berets

[Elioron]

In our last rehash I posted my still evolving theory. HMRS/NBB/HGA don't make bling loving knuckleheads, but the bling hunters choose those activities because of the bling.

^^ This.  Very much this.

[lordmonar]

The OP was in a way pointing out that we here on CAPTALK often go overboard in out assault on NBB or HM people for being "cocky kids".....when in fact it is just a few isolated individuals who are painting a bad picture for everyone who had done these NCSAs.

While it just may be a few individuals, it seems that there enough of these few individuals that comprise the majority of the NBB/Hawk folks the members here seem to meet. Hence the fairly consistant attitude about them.

I've been told that I'm not supposed to judge an activity by the people I meet who have completed it but instead by what the proponents of the activity tell me it is. Well, too bad. If the product of an activity has an attitude problem afterward, I blame the activity as well as the member.

So we judge CAP on the few salute trolls or duffle bags or pedophiles?   

Yes we got our bad apples......we don't judge the harvest on the few that don't get it.

If all you see, or the vast majority of them, are the bad apples, you do.

If all you look for are the bad apples....that's all you are going to see.

And with that I'm done with this topic.

[Eclipse]

If all you look for are the bad apples....that's all you are going to see.

That's all there >is< to see, because it's only the bad apples that draw attention to themselves.
HMRS participants can't do anything anyone else can, so the "good apples" (I like Red delicious)
simply fall into ranks and do their thing like everyone else, and you may never even know they went.

My issue is specifically regarding performance, which, in my direct and specific experience was
sorely lacking and disappointing from about 3 different vectors.


Here's some eggs to go with the rehash - seriously, Headhunter, are you interested in anything that
hasn't been discussed to death?

[CAPAPRN]

I think we should just turn this into a uniform thread  After all, why waste a good thread that mentions the words beret and BDU's? All we have to do is say......wait for it................. ABUs!!!!!!!

[Eclipse]

I think we should just turn this into a uniform thread  After all, why waste a good thread that mentions the words beret and BDU's? All we have to do is say......wait for it................. ABUs!!!!!!!

Man.  CAP getting ABUs would solve so many or our problems organization-wide.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Yeah, but we need to talk about which insignias and patches to include.

Should we use the current CAP and nametapes in ultramarine blue, or do we go with these tapes in Navy blue? And change from white to silver?

Do ya think the US flag should be kept?

Let's ask for ABU shorts as well, to use in PR, FL and Hawaii when the sun is hot...

Flyer

[blackrain]

In looking at past posts, I've noticed a trend of strong criticism towards the some NCSA 's, particularly Hawk Mountain SAR School – Rangers, and attendees of National Blue Beret.  Mostly, the criticism is in the attitude of the attendees following their participation in events, but that can be said about some of the posters here on CAP Talk as well! 

What is the opinion out there: are these "elite" to cocky for their own good?  Are these just a few isolated instances that give the appearance of a trend?  Are these just highly confident young people that we want in our organizations and communities?  Do these NCSA's still provide something of value that doesn't already exist within the organization (i.e. the GT vs. Ranger argument) or, do they just augment or duplicate efforts? 

Please, let's try to keep this as an actual discussion and not complaint and trolling session towards a particular NCSA.  It need not be limited to Hawk Mountain/Rangers, or Blue Berets, if there are other examples you wish to discuss, please add them to the conversation.

In my mind there is only one Ranger School and it's at Ft Benning.....If in fact any of those kids are cocky...well I've not news for them...they haven't earned that right

I'll tell my Forest Ranger and Texas Ranger and NPS Ranger friends you think that they are just cocky kids.

The OP was in a way pointing out that we here on CAPTALK often go overboard in out assault on NBB or HM people for being "cocky kids".....when in fact it is just a few isolated individuals who are painting a bad picture for everyone who had done these NCSAs.


And we attack anyone who is trying to have a simple discussion about how bad the problem may be.   End of rant.

Apologies Mr Harris.... I was never referring to the very professional entities which you mentioned. I knew they were Rangers but I never knew they attended training that was formally called "Ranger School"

[Blackhawk]

If all you look for are the bad apples....that's all you are going to see.

That's all there >is< to see, because it's only the bad apples that draw attention to themselves.
HMRS participants can't do anything anyone else can, so the "good apples" (I like Red delicious)
simply fall into ranks and do their thing like everyone else, and you may never even know they went.

My issue is specifically regarding performance, which, in my direct and specific experience was
sorely lacking and disappointing from about 3 different vectors.


Here's some eggs to go with the rehash - seriously, Headhunter, are you interested in anything that
hasn't been discussed to death?

Eclipse, are you a troll or moderator? I mean historically, we could just as easily discuss your posts and attitudes. I respect your lifelong CAP achievements, but please, being an attitudinal troll and trying to bully others on their posts only paints a poor impression of yourself, which I hope you don't take back to a unit and share with youth. 

ABU's would fix everything. 

[Eclipse]

Eclipse, are you a troll or moderator? I mean historically, we could just as easily discuss your posts and attitudes. I respect your lifelong CAP achievements, but please, being an attitudinal troll and trying to bully others on their posts only paints a poor impression of yourself, which I hope you don't take back to a unit and share with youth. 

Nice try.

Again, what's the point of asking the same question that's been answered 20 times at length, especially to a non-member?

[Blackhawk]

It seems as if something is missing. 

There is all this critique of these programs and/or those that attend, but what is being done with attendees afterwards?  How is all of that "attitude" and excitement that members have following their achievements getting redirected afterwards in their units and community? Is it being capitalized on? 

The benefit of these programs (outside of unique training & experience) seems to be the output of motivated folks who just need purpose, direction and guidance.  Has anyone figured out a way to capitalize on that?

[SarDragon]

It seems as if something is missing. 

There is all this critique of these programs and/or those that attend, but what is being done with attendees afterwards?  How is all of that "attitude" and excitement that members have following their achievements getting redirected afterwards in their units and community? Is it being capitalized on? 

The benefit of these programs (outside of unique training & experience) seems to be the output of motivated folks who just need purpose, direction and guidance.  Has anyone figured out a way to capitalize on that?

When members return to their units with what is essentially a chip on their shoulder, declare that the Hawk Way is the right way, and refuse to conform to the regs, it's hard to capitalize on their misdirection.

I joined CAP in 1964 as a 15 yo cadet, in NJWG. I heard about Hawk from PAWG and HJWG cadets who had attended, and even back then, there were those who had the holier-than-thou attitude. Not all of those graduates I met were like that, but certainly enough to sour me, and others, about Hawk.

[Panache]

Eh.

Let me repeat:  Eh.

They're kids.  Let them have their day in the sun before the responsibilities of adult life rears its ugly head and imposes itself upon them.

And let's face it.  Teenagers are always going to just naturally assume they know everything there is to know.

[Larry Mangum]

I agree with letting them be kids up to a point, however when the "attitude" becomes disruptive to others and the unit, then it has to be dealt with.  When I ran WTA in WAWG, I had a new cadet commander for the activity who was a Hawk graduate and wanted to wear his "Hat" and other stuff, I simply sat down with him and talked about leadership and setting an example. The problem went away, and he was an outstanding cadet commander for the activity. 

So in reality, it is not the cadet per say, but rather, how we as seniors address the situation.

[Walkman]

Dang, that looks so-o-o much better than the oatmeal I had for breakfast this morning...

[sarmed1]

In my mind there is only one Ranger School and it's at Ft Benning.....If in fact any of those kids are cocky...well I've not news for them...they haven't earned that right

the underlying basis of this sentiment could be applied to so many other things, epscially in a CAP context, and I would be carefull throwing it around as gospel...

mk

[Майор Хаткевич]

Walkman, given the time scope of your story, that beret cadet was wearing it when he knew it wasn't authorized.

[Eclipse]

They're kids.  Let them have their day in the sun before the responsibilities of adult life rears its ugly head and imposes itself upon them.

And let's face it.  Teenagers are always going to just naturally assume they know everything there is to know.

Where is the idea that only kids cadets attend HMRS and NBB?

I'd say at least 50% of the issues I've had have been with adult members, including the situation where they failed to perform properly but did exhibit the
very attitude that causes the ongoing issues.

[Flying Pig]

My position was that without the cadet program, there would be no Ranger or NBB.  Adults participate and are active, but in support of the cadets.

[Eclipse]

Adults participate and are active, but in support of the cadets.

This isn't the case for either activity.  You are probably right in terms of manpower and the sustainability of the activity itself, but adult members are there as trainees and participants, not just staff.

[sarmed1]

They're kids.  Let them have their day in the sun before the responsibilities of adult life rears its ugly head and imposes itself upon them.

And let's face it.  Teenagers are always going to just naturally assume they know everything there is to know.

Where is the idea that only kids cadets attend HMRS and NBB?

I'd say at least 50% of the issues I've had have been with adult members, including the situation where they failed to perform properly but did exhibit the
very attitude that causes the ongoing issues.

interesting statistic?  50%.  Out of how many instances. 2....10.....100?
Honestly (other than yours) I have seen more examples of "...I have/had this cadet who________....."   leaning more towards flying pigs argument than yours.....

mk