CAP grades

[lordmonar]

I'm not sure everyone understand what NIMS is or how it works. Once you are certified by them, CAP doesn't matter anymore. CAP just becomes the people that train you outside of those missions & coordinate requests for your help. The IC staff can theoretically call you direct & sign you into the mission & never tell CAP anything till after the fact. There is no CAP mission. You work for FEMA or who ever the lead agency is & CAP doesn't have anything to say about it. If the mission allows for AF funding, then the IC staff should contact CAP-USAF, but CAP still doesn't have anything to say about it. What are they gonna cut my pay?

No I don't think that is how it is supposed to work.  The NIMS system is supposed to just standardize how everyone works...so that if we ever do get called up for a big disaster we all know how to work and play together.  Just because you are ICS certified does not mean you into some big call up list.  And just because you sign in to a mission base does it mean you will ever be released from CAP control unless CAP agrees and there is a MOU spelling it out before hand.

If you get called out by FEMA as an individual....then you belong to FEMA not CAP.  If FEMA activated CAP....we are all there under the CAP umbrella....CAP may loan you out to the Unified Commander's Staff if you are some hot shot PAO guy or some other technical expert...but you are still part of CAP when that happens.

Also under a big operation all tasking of CAP assets will go through the CAP IC.  Once tasked out to say a task force or strike team...then you may be under the operational control of that leader.

The asset provider always retains some control of his deployed assets.  And the deployed assets still have to follow CAP rules and regulations.

What's very liable to happen is CAP crews requested out of the NOC show up & sign into the FEMA mission. Then one of those PIC happens to have AOBD on his NIMS card & the National Guard Major they have in the slot has been up 36hrs straight w/o a break. So, congrats you're now in charge of all aviation assets in three states. It doesn't matter who you work for, no one know who the hell you or anyone else is, all they see is your NIMS card & that's all that matters.

Wrong.  They may ask you to fill in...but they cannot task you to take over, no matter what it says on your card.  Until CAP releases you to the IC you are a CAP asset.  You do not belong to NIMS you belong to CAP.

Your ability to back up those technical skills with actual leadership & mgmt skills is assumed. You see in a paid agency, they wouldn't let just anyone train for AOBD. It's be a senior officer who has already demonstated those abilities to command before tehy've been allowed to train in the technical skills. If we go this route in CAP, then we'll have more staff qual'd people than any other agency in the country & we'll have them distributed geographically - sound familiar to the way we sell our ES ops now? Trust me. It'll take a long time when CAP realizes how far it has to go to live in this world, but when it gets there, there will be no halfway, it'll be all or nothing.

I think your scenario is very improbable....and has nothing to do with the rank and file CAP member only those holding high ES credentials.  Your average AE guy who does not do any ES jobs but is a great leader and manger and has all the abilities to run a 50 person squadron does not need all the AWC and advanced training to take over for an Active Duty or Guard Major on a major disaster response.

So...you want to change the whole way we train our officers on the off chance that maybe one of them will be called up to take over the job of a trained professional?  If the job is so difficult and requires such qualifications...how would we be able to certify them in the first place?  We don't make up the training requirements NIMS does.

No....I understand what you are trying to say...and I agree with it to a very small degree.  But we are talking changing the system that would lock out 50% (just a wag) of our members of being able to take any leadership positions so that the one in a thousand chance of one of our members getting called in to take over for a paid officer.

You do the cost benefit analysis.  Sure, we need to make sure that the guy who is AOBD qualified is really qualified.....but just because you are qualified to run a 3-4 aircraft SAR does not mean you are qualified to run a multi-state inter-agency DR op....no matter what it says on your card.  On the other hand just because you have not got a BA in Advance Basket Weaving, gone to OCS, ASBOC, SOS and AWC by corrospondance, does not mean you don't have the leadership skills and organizational abilities to pull off a Katrina. 

[arajca]

I'm not sure everyone understand what NIMS is or how it works. Once you are certified by them, CAP doesn't matter anymore. CAP just becomes the people that train you ouside of those missions & coordinate requests for your help. The IC staff can theoretically call you direct & sign you into the mission & never tell CAP anything till after the fact. There is no CAP mission. You work for FEMA or who ever the lead agency is & CAP doesn't have anything to say about it. If the mission allows for AF funding, then the IC staff should contact CAP-USAF, but CAP still doesn't have anything to say about it. What are they gonna cut my pay?

First, NIMS is not an organization. NIMS is a system of standards to help ensure emergency personnel meet certain minimum qualifications. NIMS does not certify anyone. Your agency certifies you as NIMS qualified using the rules and standards laid out in the NIMS documents.

The National Incident Management System provides a consistent nationwide template to establish Federal, State, tribal and local governments and private sector and nongovernmental organizations to work together effectively and efficiently to prepare for, prevent, respond to and recover from domestic incidents, regardless of cause, size or complexity, including acts of catastrophic terrorism.  NIMS benefits include a unified approach to incident management; standard command and management structures; and emphasis on preparedness, mutual aid and resource management.

You do not 'belong' to NIMS. You 'belong' to CAP.

Second, unless you're on a specific call-out roster, you are not going to be called out directly. If you are on that roster, either there is an MOU coveirng that or you are not called out as part of CAP. IC staff can request a fire engine from a fire dept, but they have specific procedures to follow to get it. They do not the engine co. directly and order them to report to the incident. The same principle applies to CAP resources.

Third, who you work for depends entirely on ho the MOU's and agreements are structured. If you are called in as a CAP resource, CAP can withdraw you at any time. The Agency Representative has the authority to commit or withdraw organization resources.

What's very liable to happen is CAP crews requested out of the NOC show up & sign into the FEMA mission. Then one of those PIC happens to have AOBD on his NIMS card & the Natioanl Guard Major they have in the slot has been up 36hrs straight w/o a break. So, congrats you're now in charge of all aviation assets in three states. It doesn't matter who you work for, no one know who the helll you or anyone else is, all they see is your NIMS card & that's all that matters. Your ability to back up those technical skills with actual leadership & mgmt skills is assumed. You see in a paid agency, they wouldn't let just anyone train for AOBD. It's be a senior officer who has already demonstated those abilities to command before tehy've been allowed to train in the technical skills.

So you're saying the IC would take an ordered resource out of service because the PIC is an AOBD. Not likely to happen. One factor is that a resource can charge time from the moment it accepts the order to the moment it arrives at home, regardless of whether it is used on the incident or not. In an incident the scale of which you're talking about there will be at least one, and probably more, Type I overhead teams in place. The people on these teams are trained and qualified for the job, and for the most part, their day job is similar to their OHTeam job, and the team comes with deputies and assistants for the major functions. Additionally, you're most likely looking at an area command structure, not a single incident structure. 

If we go this route in CAP, then we'll have more staff qual'd people than any other agency in the country & we'll have them distributed geographically - sound familiar to the way we sell our ES ops now? Trust me. It'll take a long time when CAP realizes how far it has to go to live in this world, but when it gets there, there will be no halfway, it'll be all or nothing.

On this point, we agree.

[Hotel 179]

Hello All,

Taking this out of the theoretical and into the reality of the situation let me say how fortunate I am to live along the Gulf of Mexico and have had the opportunity to work real life hurricanes and floods pretty often since joining CAP in 1993.  Things have changed since the early days so I'll only discuss the last 3 big ones.

The Emergency Operations Center at the County and State level are in contact with many agencies.  CAP has a desk, telephone and high-speed internet on the front row of the control room.  We are in the first group called to report for the agency briefings...in fact, we are prosecuting photo fly-back missions days before the event. 

The only people at the Mission Base who are wearing "uniforms" are the National Guard guys and us...everyone else is  wearing multi-pocket pants and camera vests for all the crap that you have to tote around.  Nobody gives a hoot about who is a Capt or Lt or Indian Chief...Some of the agencies have really cool matching tee-shirts with their agency's name across the back, but the leaders are listed on a mission status board and it's obvious who they are because if you need to know then you will know.  If you don' t know who the movers and shakers are then it's simply because you don't have any reason to know.

The agencies represented are the Red Cross, Salvation Army, local school district (they have a whole pile of buses), power companies and utilities companies, water companies, waste management, ambulance services, national guard, army reserve, police/fire departments, local ham operators, in-house media, mapping, local and state emergency management, and a host of assorted players.  It resembles a trade show.  In the early days of the event, I am the CAP Agency Rep/AOBD/MP/bottle washer and if you happen to read the PAO discussion group you can see my letters from the Gulf.  As the mission develops, I fly up to the State Mission Base and pick up the other CAP folks who will be coming down to assist.  Our local folks help where they are able, but are primarily busy with preserving their personnal property before the event.

The very earliest missions are often flown as a Corporate mission until the money flow starts.  CAP is working hand in hand with the State EMA.  The Tracker 2000 computer system generates the mission taskings.  If it is an air operations, the IC will say to me, "Pearce, got somebody that can fly?"  We are all there together for the duration, sleeping on the same cots, eating the same hamburgers and chicken sandwiches, drinking the same coffee.  No body is throwing their weight or rank around.  My Ground Teams may be working along with National Guard troops in manning food/water distribution points and assisting in the transportation of patients from hospitals or nursing homes. If I'm flying, I may be briefing with State Helos, National Guard Blackhawks, Coast Guard Falcons and then coordinating with the Marines for a squak code and frequency to contact the P3 that's controlling the area.

During Katrina, my communications people were setting up days before the rotary oscilator became soiled.  I was flying the minute the winds died enough to get airborne.  We operated out of our home base as it is a half hour flight across the bay so our tasking came by radio to our local comm guy from the mission base at Stennis.  Heck, during one of the times that we needed to fly a photo mission and our aircraft was dispatched to another area, one of my guys chartered a 1928 Travelair and shot out of the open cockpit.....we don't need no SDIS to get it done.....IN FACT, many of the SDIS shoots were actually fly-back missions because the system had proven to be less than reliable and also very expensive as the air-time that the contract is written for had become used up.....you think that cell overage is expensive!

CAPR60-3 recommends quarterly meetings with the agencies who do emergency services.  Get to know the folks, train with them, go to the briefings, and be visible.  It has been said before in this thread but cannot be stated strongly enough, choose your representatives well.

Semper vi, y'all....

Stephen

[Psicorp]

We're definitely not on the same page, lordmonar. I didn't say enlisted, I said airmen. You're talking about putting the training levels into 9 ranks, I'm looking at a system of only four grades. (Yeah, I mean the first four.)

Also, considering that CAP can't promote NCO's, I don't think that we should have our NCO promotion system. I think the existing system of only prior service NCO's would be fine.  If we do promote, then I don't think that we should go beyond the junior NCO ranks.

It's an interesting idea.  It would be nice to see new Senior Members who have no prior CAP or military experience be required to spend more time in the organization before giving them 2nd LT bars.   

The enlisted rank structure, on the other hand, is a bit more difficult to change.  We'd have to create CAP distinctive enlisted grade insignia before we could do anything.  That is the only way we could allow someone with no military experience to wear the Airman chevron let alone promote.    Personally I'd like to see it, if not for more than promoting current NCOs.  It really does suck that a former (or current) military NCO cannot promote within our organization (unless the military does the promoting) while someone with a pilot's licence gets 1st LT then Captain then Major.  While we all know 1st LTs who've held that grade for eons, at least they can promote if they applied themselves.

At least the cadet rank structure makes sense.  You know Cadet Officers have been in the organization a while and had been Cadet Airmen once.

[Hawk200]

It's an interesting idea.  It would be nice to see new Senior Members who have no prior CAP or military experience be required to spend more time in the organization before giving them 2nd LT bars.

We've had a number of various ideas for the various "candidate" ideas. If someone is going officer, have them wear an "OCS" or "OTC" type insignia instead of grade, until they reach those bars.

As far more time in to the bars, I don't think more time is really necessary. What I think is necessary is more training. Three hours and new clothes do not an officer make. And I think that we should delve into our history a little bit more for what that training should be.

As far as whether the additional training would be worth it, I remember a commercial from the 70's. "Long hours. Low pay. Difficult language. Join the Peace Corps". You know what it did for their recruiting? People that showed up were a lot more serious about it when they knew there was a challenge.

The enlisted rank structure, on the other hand, is a bit more difficult to change.  We'd have to create CAP distinctive enlisted grade insignia before we could do anything.  That is the only way we could allow someone with no military experience to wear the Airman chevron let alone promote. 

I've seen that question of distinctive enlisted SM insignia, with the same responses of: "We don't need to design our own enlisted ranks", or else "What would our enlisted stripes look like."

I still say the answer is an easy one. You make the background of the stripes the same color as the current officer epaulets, and those SM NCO's wear the same gray nametag the officers do. The stripes wouldn't be that hard to get, just tell Vanguard "Hey, we're about to spend some more money on insignia." I have a suspicion that the turn around would be rather quick. The insignia would be pretty easily recognizable as an airman or NCO, but the color would indicate that this person is somehow associated with the Air Force in a uniquely different way.

[lordmonar]

It's n ot necessarily that we CAN'T promote NCO's but that we DON'T promote in the NCO ranks.

Our rank structure is built on the officer ranks.  The NCO status is only for those ex-NCOs who for one reason or another do not want to be officers.

That does not mean we can't go to the USAF with a plan to use the enlisted ranks (including NCO) intead of the O ranks.

With that said.....I am not advocating for a CAP enlisted corps (except maybe for the cadets).  I think Flight Officer rank would more than suffice for the rank and file Senior Membership.  It has the advantage of being easy to produce, not require any new insiginia (just more on the same thread) and it not piss off any active duty NCO's.

The problem remember is that our rank structure today does not mean the same thing as we thing the ranks should mean.  I.E. a CAP Capt is not the same as a USAF Capt....going to NCO ranks or even Airman rank would just be replacing one misconception with another.

If we go with a totally different rank system that still as the flavor of the USAF we solve this problem and still have a way of rewarding our rank and file membership.

[Hawk200]

It's n ot necessarily that we CAN'T promote NCO's but that we DON'T promote in the NCO ranks.

Our rank structure is built on the officer ranks.  The NCO status is only for those ex-NCOs who for one reason or another do not want to be officers.

That does not mean we can't go to the USAF with a plan to use the enlisted ranks (including NCO) intead of the O ranks.

With that said.....I am not advocating for a CAP enlisted corps (except maybe for the cadets).  I think Flight Officer rank would more than suffice for the rank and file Senior Membership.  It has the advantage of being easy to produce, not require any new insiginia (just more on the same thread) and it not piss off any active duty NCO's.

The problem remember is that our rank structure today does not mean the same thing as we thing the ranks should mean.  I.E. a CAP Capt is not the same as a USAF Capt....going to NCO ranks or even Airman rank would just be replacing one misconception with another.

If we go with a totally different rank system that still as the flavor of the USAF we solve this problem and still have a way of rewarding our rank and file membership.

What exactly would the insignia that you're proposing look like? If it's a variation on the current FO insignia, then about the only flavor that might show would be Air Force Academy, or McPeak's rank insignia. I don't think either would be taken very seriously.

As far as rewarding the rank and file membership, how do you figure? "Welcome to Civil Air Patrol. Congratulations, here's your FO-4 rank. Oh yeah, we know, nobody has any idea what it is, we made it up, don't worry about it, it doesn't really matter anyway."

And how exactly does it have an "Air Force flavor" when it never existed in the Air Force?

We're not going to move forward by re-inventing the wheel here. We will get far more respect from the Air Force by emulating them in some ways, not by separating from them. (Something which is happening right now, no telling how that's going to turn out.)

[lordmonar]

But the point being....rank and file flight officers do not have to be take seriously. (in the sense that you are using the word)  Not any more seriously than they would be take seriously as a CAP SrA.

First we would not be offering anyone FO-4 off the back...they would be FO-1, no advanced promotions for ratings, skills, or anything.  The FO ranks only denote the member's progression through the PD program.

That would seperate the rank and file from the leaders.

And for you historically illertate types....the USAF has had Flight Officers and Warrant Officers in the past.

As far as moving forward by re-invention.....is that now what this whole thread is about?  If you want to move forward...don't change anything....but improve the quality of the training we are currently supposed to be getting.  Provide the officers in the feild with more opportunities to get the training and look for more ways to present the necessary leadership training.

[Hawk200]

But the point being....rank and file flight officers do not have to be take seriously. (in the sense that you are using the word)  Not any more seriously than they would be take seriously as a CAP SrA.

First we would not be offering anyone FO-4 off the back...they would be FO-1, no advanced promotions for ratings, skills, or anything.  The FO ranks only denote the member's progression through the PD program.

That would seperate the rank and file from the leaders.

And for you historically illertate types....the USAF has had Flight Officers and Warrant Officers in the past.

As far as moving forward by re-invention.....is that now what this whole thread is about?  If you want to move forward...don't change anything....but improve the quality of the training we are currently supposed to be getting.  Provide the officers in the feild with more opportunities to get the training and look for more ways to present the necessary leadership training.

The way I'm kinda looking at it is that I don't see a reason to create a new grade system. Someone from the Air Force or other branch seeing an airman knows what it is. Someone seeing an FO4 would have no clue.

I don't know what anyone might think, but I'll throw out an outlined concept of what I think we could do with enlisted. This is a rough concept, so bear with me.

1. Non staff personnel that have no desire to do anything would get airmen grades. They would receive a basic primer on CAP's missions. Promotions would be time in grade primarily, with a little education on doing something useful. These airmen would be highly encourage to adopt a staff position, and move on further. If they didn't, they would top out at SrA. In other words, you don't put much in, you don't get much.

2. NCO's would only be prior service NCO's. Direct grade conversion to CAP. As far as positions, I don't know what to say, there is so much experience there, I don't know how to quantify it.

3. Misson pilots, scanners, obbservers, other mission personnel that do only that get warrant officer grades. But only if that's all they're doing. If the same folks are doing staff positions, then they work with O grade.

4.  A. Officer candidates start out with "OTC" (officer candidate course). Six months, and about 80 hours (actual time, not college type hours) of training to include some general officer skill, leadership, drill, C&C, etc. Not just four hours, and some new clothes.

     B. Continuing education would be more in depth, with a lot of focus on working with other agencies. Definitely continuing in leadership.

That's the basic rough concept I have. Not reinventing the wheel, but smoothing it out for a better ride. The idea of no enlisted puzzles even the military folks. Officer ranks should be earned with a little more work than what we have now.

[DNall]

NIMS
Actually, NIMS is now putting out certification standards rather than just a list of quals. That's correct though that your agency (CAP) certifies to them that you've completed those quals, & they assume the liability if that's found not to be the case. I understand that because of inconsistency & the legal questions that creates, that they are moving toward issuing NIMS qual cards.

CAP will call out resources directly via the NOC, but that's not necessarily the only way, and yes as an individual you can walk up & show certification, they will put you to work & it doesn't matter if you are a CAP member or not or that CAP knows anything about you being there.

I agree the overhead command structure will be staffed, I was trying to give a simplified example. Yes, the actual case would be more like a CAP aircrew on downtime that has a certified member able to step up on that team, or take over operations at a sub-level on the fly. you see this kind of thing hapepen almost as the rule rather than the exception on CAP missions, and it does occur at times on joint missions. I'm really less concerned with being able to run a national response, & more with being able to run a joint response between say CAP, the sherriff's dept, varrious county FDs, etc. CAP isn't now remotely qual'd to do that, even though we have by far the most experience of anyone in that group running a major SaR. I'd also like to be able to run a joint mission with CG & walk into the one mission base & see at least some of those lead positions held by CAP members. It will take time and each of these things is a stepping stone, as we prove ourselves at one level we'll be more generally accepted & given the opportunity at the next level. Eventually that leads to people taking major role in major incidents, and that should be the goal.

Anyway, this is just one EXAMPLE of why CAP officers need to meet professionally competent standards of leadership set by the outside world, not based solely on what's required in a 20-50 person Sq.

Justification:
I think if you'll ook at ES, you can see the need for strong leaders to interact with other agencies, the public, and to motivate our troops to efficiently go find people waiting for rescue. We too often go out on a mission thinking we're looking for a a false alarm or a pile of aluminum but that there's no one leaning against a tree bleeding out while they wait for us to get our act together. I think it's pretty easy to see how that lack of taking it seriously crosses into an assumption that we don't need well trained officers to lead people to do the best job.

2% (guessing) maybe of CAP officers are ever legitimately involved in AE, and what do they do? They're either working with cadets or they're out in public representing CAP & the AF to the world & other org. I think what you expect from that officer is to be able to step into a crowd & subtlely take charge so as to diplomatically lead them to solutions desirable to CAP & the AF.

In Cadet Programs I think it should be easiest to see. Look at the ACA officer standards, the officer standards for CAP-style programs in UK & other places. Cadets come to us cause they want in the military, and they quit when the officers over them or the program around them doesn't live up to that expectation. You job in that role is to take teenagers & change who they are, their character, what they're dedicated to, etc & end at a target goal that's good for the AF & the country. You can't do that if you aren't a great officer & know the techniques & formal kind of leadership psychlogy you're supposed to be teaching.

That should be some internal reasons for you. I don't think it's hard to see external ones... earn the respect of the rank-in-file AF as peers so we can earn their trust & belief that we can deal with complex gear on critical missions, so that we can become part of the total-AF concept & actually start doing missions for America & quit wasting everyone's time & money. There's a few more, but that should be key.


NCO Grades:

-snip-
not require any new insiginia (just more on the same thread) and it not piss off any active duty NCO's.

The problem remember is that our rank structure today does not mean the same thing as we thing the ranks should mean.  I.E. a CAP Capt is not the same as a USAF Capt....going to NCO ranks or even Airman rank would just be replacing one misconception with another.

If we go with a totally different rank system that still as the flavor of the USAF we solve this problem and still have a way of rewarding our rank and file membership.

FO grades are not the same flavor as the AF. There was a VERY short time when aviation cadets were called flight officers, but that was quickly & correctly done away with. That process springs from the pre-WWII AAF, in which pilots were viewed as specialist who did not particularly need to be leaders. For the last 55-some-odd years candidates first learn to be leaders as they become an officer, and THEN are allowed to train in their secondary field as a pilot. There is no place for FO grades in association with a professional seperate AF. You can use the warrant officer grades the AF also carried over from the AAF, but those too are not highly appropriate. If we're trying to fit in with teh AF family so that they will trust us with greater responsibility in the family business, then it is appropriate for us to stick to the example they set for us - that means enlisted grades, and there's nothing wrong with it.

The only thing that pisses off AD or prior-service NCOs about a CAP NCO corps is fear. They believe there are some good members in CAP & some crap. If you make the best 25% officers then what's left behind may be offensive to NCOs. My answer to that is two-fold. First, a lot of the crap is going to fall away when this quits being a free ride & they don't meet the standards, but they'll be rapidly replaced by a whole new crew of people interested in being part of a professional org that gets the job done & really is part of the AF family - ask Iowa what they've seen since their reorganization. Secondly, It's not particularly the top 25%. Being an officer under this system means less time in the field, less f all the fun stuff, and more responsibility at every level. It's a very time consuming process with less reward. A lot of people are going to choose the enlisted side over being an officer because they have no interest in committing to meet those challenges. The NCO side won't be a free ride either though. The current PD is modified by removing officer responsibility items & putting in content from the NCO PMEs, and you are much more intensely trained in your field so that you really are an expert specialist. After you get done telling them that, then explain to them that what we require now for LtCol only gets you TSgt (or MSgt, we can debate that if you like).

I still say the answer is an easy one. You make the background of the stripes the same color as the current officer epaulets, and those SM NCO's wear the same gray nametag the officers do. The stripes wouldn't be that hard to get, just tell Vanguard "Hey, we're about to spend some more money on insignia." I have a suspicion that the turn around would be rather quick. The insignia would be pretty easily recognizable as an airman or NCO, but the color would indicate that this person is somehow associated with the Air Force in a uniquely different way.

That's a pretty good idea, as is the red prop/triangle/circle replacing the star or jus the prop inside/over the star. Really if you can take the actual AF stripes & just embroider something over them, that'd be the most financially manageable route. I'm willing to put a range of ideas to the AF. We use standard officer insignia, so the argument follows that standard stripes should be fine, maybe with some alteration. I have nothing against changing the background though if that's what they want.

Officer TIG:
Just a quick note. I set the TIG numbers by the AF chart. We promote peopel too fat now & end up with too many LtCols standing around being commanded by a Capt. It would be better if LtCol in CAP took the same career investment that it takes in the AF.

[ELTHunter]

NIMS
CAP will call out resources directly via the NOC, but that's not necessarily the only way, and yes as an individual you can walk up & show certification, they will put you to work & it doesn't matter if you are a CAP member or not or that CAP knows anything about you being there.

I'd be carefull about statements such as this, next thing you know, some yahoo's will be out self deploying saying it's alright because they passed a NIMS course on line.

[DNall]

NIMS
CAP will call out resources directly via the NOC, but that's not necessarily the only way, and yes as an individual you can walk up & show certification, they will put you to work & it doesn't matter if you are a CAP member or not or that CAP knows anything about you being there.

I'd be carefull about statements such as this, next thing you know, some yahoo's will be out self deploying saying it's alright because they passed a NIMS course on line.

Oh I'm not proposing it as policy. There's a lot more to the standards than a few online courses, you'd have to bring a whole file with you now, versus tehm going to cards. CAP should kick that self deployer out after the fact, but he's going to claim he was there as a private citizen & that may put you in a spot. I'd still kick him out. In the real world, a professional responsder would never do that cause they'd get fired when they get home & they wouldn't be paid for theeir services during the mission. That's not such a motivator when you're talking about CAP members.

Anyway, I'm not encouraging it, I'm just demonstrating that CAP is not in a position of command once they release resources to a mission. As far as NIMS is concerned the only reason CAP exists is to train people & coordinate their deployment to a NIMS certified ICS staff. That doesn't mean it's the whole truth, but CAP doesn't make the rules on this one.

Anyway, like I said, it's just an example of how CAP officers need leadership skills to go with ES quals so they can lead more than other CAP members in emergency situations.

[Major_Chuck]

In my perfect CAP World senior officers would hold one of 4 flight officer grades.  Officer grades would only be used for those holding staff and command billets.

Ah, but then on paper everyone would hold a staff job and be an officer Chuck...

As an example:

My perfect CAP world would require that Personnel Officers have completed the specialty track.  (Oh my, that means that Professional Development for advancement might actually mean something...).  If you don't hold the specialty rating then you cannot be the Lieutenant running Personnel.  You might be the Flight Officer running personnel.

Once a person stepped out of staff or command role then they would wear one of the four or five flight officer grades.

My goal:  To deflate the disproportionate CAP officer grades.  Why reward someone with the grade of Major if they never participate or hold an active leadership position.

[Hawk200]

That's a pretty good idea, as is the red prop/triangle/circle replacing the star or jus the prop inside/over the star. Really if you can take the actual AF stripes & just embroider something over them, that'd be the most financially manageable route. I'm willing to put a range of ideas to the AF. We use standard officer insignia, so the argument follows that standard stripes should be fine, maybe with some alteration. I have nothing against changing the background though if that's what they want.

All in all, just changing the background color seemed easiest. I got the idea from when I was at Keasler, and saw a couple of foreign NCO's with stripes that were similar to ours, except their's was a black background with gold stripes, and instead of the star on AF stripes, there was a cresent moon of some type. That moon looked very similar to our military's Muslim chaplain insignia.

But if it's the same stripe, just a different color, it's easily known what it is. It doesn't need a prop on it. The fact that it's a gray stripe, with a nametag on the person that says "Civil Air Patrol" is all that would really be needed.

[Psicorp]

It's n ot necessarily that we CAN'T promote NCO's but that we DON'T promote in the NCO ranks.
[/quote]

Ahh, my understanding is that we CAN'T promote because of the way military NCOs become CAP NCOs...wearing the grade insignia they are actually entitled to by the military.   Again, it just irks me that we don't have a CAP distinctive NCO insignia to acknowledge/reward duty performance for NCOs the same way we do Officers...after all, an Air Force Captain can join as a CAP Captain, can wears CAP grade insignia and can be promoted to Major.    The NCO who's in my squadron commands a lot of respect from the cadet (and Officers) because he's an NCO.  He's done a lot of work for the unit and it would just be nice to give him something more tangible than a piece of paper to hang on the wall. 

[arajca]

The way I'm kinda looking at it is that I don't see a reason to create a new grade system. Someone from the Air Force or other branch seeing an airman knows what it is. Someone seeing an FO4 would have no clue.

True, but just about all the services know what a Warrant Officer is. Besides, in CAP, Flight Officer has a negative connotation - an overgrown cadet. Ditch the name "Flight Officer" and use Warrant Officer. Even a significant number of non-military people understand the basics of what a warrant officer is. I would not, however, call all wo's above WO1, Chief Warrant Officer. Tie the name to the level and you'd have WO, Technical WO, Senior WO, Master WO, Chief WO.

t know what anyone might think, but I'll throw out an outlined concept of what I think we could do with enlisted. This is a rough concept, so bear with me.

1. Non staff personnel that have no desire to do anything would get airmen grades. They would receive a basic primer on CAP's missions. Promotions would be time in grade primarily, with a little education on doing something useful. These airmen would be highly encourage to adopt a staff position, and move on further. If they didn't, they would top out at SrA. In other words, you don't put much in, you don't get much.

Why give them any grade if they're not going to do anything? You're reinforcing the 'warm body' scenario. Pay your money, don't cause trouble, get promoted. If someonen't going to do anything, call them a supporter, instructor, etc. They wouldn't wear a military style uniform, just the golf shirt. No ribbons. No badges. No grade. Simple. If they want more, they have to do more.

2. NCO's would only be prior service NCO's. Direct grade conversion to CAP. As far as positions, I don't know what to say, there is so much experience there, I don't know how to quantify it.

Why not let CAP members who complete the training and are active be CAP NCO's? Why should someone who has little or no knowledge of CAP or direct transfer skills come in and outrank most of the membership? The military is not the only source for supervisory skill training. I would argue that a police sergeant or fire lieutenant would easily be qualified to fill an NCO position.

3. Misson pilots, scanners, obbservers, other mission personnel that do only that get warrant officer grades. But only if that's all they're doing. If the same folks are doing staff positions, then they work with O grade.

I'd expand this to all professional appointments. If they start OCS and are serving in the appropriate staff position, then they get an O grade.

4.  A. Officer candidates start out with "OTC" (officer candidate course). Six months, and about 80 hours (actual time, not college type hours) of training to include some general officer skill, leadership, drill, C&C, etc. Not just four hours, and some new clothes.

     B. Continuing education would be more in depth, with a lot of focus on working with other agencies. Definitely continuing in leadership.

This is a common idea in all the suggestions I have seen.

[Psicorp]

4.  A. Officer candidates start out with "OTC" (officer candidate course). Six months, and about 80 hours (actual time, not college type hours) of training to include some general officer skill, leadership, drill, C&C, etc. Not just four hours, and some new clothes.

I haven't sat in on the new Level 1 class, but the previous ones I have only vaugely mention customs and courtesies and that we salute, but not actually show how or require demonstrating.  Uniform wear should be more emphasized...have you ever tried to explain to someone all the possible uniform options??  Sheesh, do they have an hour?

I realize Officers aren't cadets and we are two seperate programs, but for any Officer who comes anywhere near a cadet knows, they tend to salute and you better know how to return it.    For that matter, how can Officers be involved with Cadet Programs with so little training in the military basics??  There's nothing like being at a Squadron meeting during opening ceremonies (two Flights, one Cadet and one Officer) and the Acting Officer Flight Commander calls "Parade Rest" and two Lieutenants and a Captain look at you with total confusion written all over their faces.

I'm all for a longer Officer Candidate Course rather than the short and sweet Level 1 class.   

Fixed quote tag. - MIKE

[Trung Si Ma]

I like the idea of changing the structure and have seen some good ideas put forth here.  Let me try and add to the  fun.

Enhance the current Level One by rolling the cadet Phase One program into it with it's Leadership Tests (written and practical) to ensure that non-prior service SM at least get the basics of military courtesy.  The combined Level One Test would be handled by Group Commanders (Wing if no group structure in place) over a single day (8 hours) and would result in promotion to Airman by the Group Commander.  (TOTAL TIS: approximately 6 months – still need the background check, etc)

Completion of the Technician Level in a senior specialty track, graduation from SLS, and one year TIG as an airman allows the squadron commander to promote the individual to Airman First Class.  (TOTAL TIS: approximately 18 months)

Completion of the Senior Level in a senior specialty track, graduation from CLC, and eighteen months TIG as an A1C allows the squadron commander to promote the individual to Senior Airman.  (TOTAL TIS: approximately 3 years)

Completion of the Master Level in a senior specialty track and a Wing level Basic NCO Course (40 hour residence course on leadership, management, counseling, logistical accountability, etc) and two years as a SrA allows the Group Commander to promote the individual to Staff Sergeant.  (TOTAL TIS: approximately 5 years)

Completion of the AFIADL Noncommissioned Officer Academy Correspondence Course (AFIADL Course 9) and two years in grade as a SSgt allows the Group Commander to promote the individual to Technical Sergeant.  (TOTAL TIS: approximately 7 years)

Completion of a second Master Level in a senior specialty track, receipt of the Yeager Aerospace Award, completion of a general ES specialty and two years in grade as a TSgt allows the Wing Commander to promote the individual to Master Sergeant.  (TOTAL TIS: approximately 9 years)

Completion of the AFIADL Senior Noncommissioned Officer Academy Correspondence Course (AFIADL Course 12/14) and three years in grade as a MSgt allows the Wing Commander to promote the individual to Senior Master Sergeant.  (TOTAL TIS: approximately 12 years)

Allow the Wing and Region Commanders to nominate one SMSgt from their organization to be designated by NHQ as a Chief Master Sergeant.  Nominees for CMSgt must have at least three years in grade as SMSgt and attend the next Wing Commander's course before being promoted to CMSgt.  The National Commander will also designate one CMSgt to be the CMSgt of CAP.

NOTE:  AFIADL Course 9 requires 6 years of service for SSgt's to enroll
            AFIADL Course 12/14 requires a minimum grade of MSgt to enroll

All training must be brought current for former military NCO's to be promoted.  For example, a retired Army SFC would be promoted to MSgt upon completion of the new level one, but would have to complete two master ratings, SLS, CLC, Yeager Award, General ES, AFIADL Course 12/14, and have three years in grade to be promoted to SMSgt.

Since we would be capped at 60 CMSgts (52 wings, 8 regions), all E-9's would come into CAP as SMSgt's (similar to LtCol limitation for officers) and compete for a CMSgt slot.

Rank insignia will be the current USAF pin on rank pinned to a gray sleeve for the blues and Aviator Shirt combinations and pinned to the color of the BBDU.  For flight clothing, the rank will only be worn on the leather flight wings patch.

NCOs could hold all jobs in CAP except Commander or Deputy Commander.

With the exception that you must be either a Mission Pilot, Mission Observer, or Ground Team Leader to be eligible for Flight Officer grades, FO1 – FO5 will use the current promotion system with direct replacement of FO1 for 2ndLt, FO2 for 1stLt, FO3 for Capt, FO4 for Maj, FO5 for LtCol.  FO1 and FO2 to be known as Flight Officers, FO3 and FO4 will be known as Chief Flight Officers and FO5 will be known as a Master Flight Officer.  Rank insignia will be the same pattern as the current Army Warrant Officers, but Blue on Silver instead of Black on Silver.  This is chosen to rapidly allow the insignia to be made from existing dies.

FOs could hold all jobs in CAP except Commander or Deputy Commander.

Commissioned Officer grades will be reserved for Commanders and principle staff officers at all levels based on your existing FO grade, but not to exceed Major for Squadron Commanders and Lieutenant Colonel for Group Commanders with deputies one grade lower and principle staff officers two grades lower at each level.  Squadrons would then be Maj/Capt/1stLt max, Groups would be LtCol, Maj, Capt max, Wings would be Col, LtCol, Maj max.

[BillB]

Trung Si Ma, that would be a good system IF, there hadn't been three previous methods of gaining promotion in CAP. What are you going to do with a Lt Col that has three Masters ratings, completed AFDLI 13, SOS, ACSC and AWC but is a Squadron DCP? Demote him to MSgt?
Many of the suggestions for a new gade program are based on aircrews or ES qualifications. But without the average squadron staff working to maintain the Squadron such as Personnel, Cadet Programs staff, Finance Officer etc, the squadron would fall flat on it's face. But so many of the suggestions require advancement in ES or flight crew advancement it seems that only people involved in those think people should hold grade or be promoted.
CAP needs to allow former military NCOs to be promoted through the NCO ranks after they advance their CAP training. They earned their rank the hard way, but CAP locks them in their previous military rank regardless of advanced training. Why should a former military E-6 be locked into that rank when he completes a Masters rating or two in CAP?

[Trung Si Ma]

Bill,

I am one of those former NCO's with multiple master ratings and a low number GRW and I'd like to be promoted to an equal NCO grade from my past life - but NHQ says you can't voluntarily give up what you have an go "back".  BTW - NCO grades were no longer allowed when I became a senior.  I also don't - personally - consider becoming an NCO again a demotion.

Under my proposal, that squadron DCP would be a Capt as long as they held a squadron deputy slot and since they already have AFDLI 13/SOS/ACSC/AWC.  But as a deputy, that person can't wear NCO grade either.

Back in the famous "old days" (the 70's) we were restricted to a certain number of people at each grade based on our overall structure.  My promotion paperwork to both Capt and Major have places where the Squadron, Group, Wing, and Region Commanders had to certify the total number of the recommend grade on hand versus the authorized numbers and you did not get promoted if there was no openings.  That system was done away with because it was not "fair" since we have no mandatory retirement in CAP.  The end product?  CAP has more "colonels" than the Confederate Air Force.

Also notice that the first time I require demonstrated capability in all three congressionally mandated missions was at promotion to MSgt since they could not take AFDLI 12/14 until they were E-7's and I wanted something (anything) in there to make it "earned".

No new band-aid is going to cover everything and this is all an exercise in mental gymnastics since we have not taken this argument out of the fantasy word (this board) and moved it into the command channels to facilitate the changes.

Trung Si Ma