Are CAP Senior NCO ranks coming back?

[RVT]

In the February 2010 national board minutes Agenda item 17 gives me the impression that senior member NCO ranks are coming back.

At the moment there is no way to join CAP and earn NCO grade.  If you earned the rank in the actual military it carries over and you can join CAP at the same rank if you want.  They discuss developing a senior member NCO track so that such person can be promoted later and remain an NCO, unlike the current system where NCO rank is initial entry only and any promotion is to the normal officer structure.

My affiliation with CAP goes back 36 years and the senior member NCO ranks were long gone when I showed up.  It would be interesting to day the least, to see them return.

[RiverAux]

There has been no indications that they are thinking of letting non-prior service become NCOs.  Rather they are thinking of ways to let prior-service NCOs advance in CAP rank. 

[FW]

A committee was formed about 2 years ago to study this issue and come up with recommendations for a CAP NCO program.  However, all we have to date is what is in the NB minutes.  I have no idea what will eventually proposed. 

IMHO, I think the NCO grades for CAP senior members make no sense.  It will not change our culture, will not improve our uniform issues, will not increase recruitment, will not increase retention, will not motivate our cadets, will not increase our customer base, will not improve our PD program and, will not make CAP a better organization (if I've left anything out, forgive me.... )

CAP's NCO program died years ago for good reasons.  And, I'm not one for raising the dead. 

[Eclipse]

Search is your friend - this is a dead horse and a half.

Once more for the cheap seats.

Military NCO's are the "doers", officers are the "managers".  A fundamental caste-like separation exists, and while there are plenty of places they intersect, there is no question they are "different".  This is reflected in everything from education to parking spaces.

In a volunteer organization like CAP where "everyone" can do "whatever they want", and SMWOG command squadrons, while Cols. empty trash cans after meetings, a fundamental division between "doers" and "managers" would never work. It's bad enough today with having some people think they they are above the grunt work of a squadron just because they can drive a plane or work a radio.

There simply will never be a "corps" that needs "looking out for" by NCO's.  So in CAP, at most you would simply extend out the progression in the same way as the cadet program, where your grade is simply a milestone of membership.

We'd be much better served by looking at either Flight Officer or Specialist grades for those members who just want to do "x" and never progress, etc.

[Custer]

We'd be much better served by looking at either Flight Officer or Specialist grades for those members who just want to do "x" and never progress.

I was actually wondering why the flight officer ranks were not used instead of "SMWOG" but the system is actually fine the way it is.

[RVT]

CAP's NCO program died years ago for good reasons.  And, I'm not one for raising the dead. 

Good point - it surprised me to see that  and I read more into it than was there.

[PHall]

CAP's NCO program died years ago for good reasons.  And, I'm not one for raising the dead. 

Good point - it surprised me to see that  and I read more into it than was there.

This "program" was the work of one person, who is not even a member anymore.

[Major Carrales]

There is no need for NCOs in CAP.  After reading the ridicule of CAP on other forum where people are making remarks suggesting  "poser/pretender-ism," I think it is a horrible idea. 

I am changing my stance on this...the only NCOs we should have are those having their earned millitary grade "bestowed" as an hommage.  Anything more will rain down critism we don't need.

[Ned]

I may be in the minority, but I believe that the cadet program has a genuine need for quality NCOs to serve as trainers, mentors, and role models for our cadets.

Our cadet program (unlike others) teaches both NCO and officer leadership styles as the cadets progress from C/Amn to C/Col.  And while we are fortunate to have a number of quality CAP officers to serve as role models and coaches for our cadet officers, there is a role for CAP NCOs to model and teach NCO leadership styles.

Sure, in the absencs of NCOs, our CP officers do the best they can to teach and mentor our cadet officers, and they are largely successful.  But genuine NCOs can do so more easily and genuinely.

YMMV.

[SJFedor]

I may be in the minority, but I believe that the cadet program has a genuine need for quality NCOs to serve as trainers, mentors, and role models for our cadets.

Our cadet program (unlike others) teaches both NCO and officer leadership styles as the cadets progress from C/Amn to C/Col.  And while we are fortunate to have a number of quality CAP officers to serve as role models and coaches for our cadet officers, there is a role for CAP NCOs to model and teach NCO leadership styles.

Sure, in the absencs of NCOs, our CP officers do the best they can to teach and mentor our cadet officers, and they are largely successful.  But genuine NCOs can do so more easily and genuinely.

YMMV.

True. Only problem is, there's a lot of members out there that have no idea what it is to be a good NCO, let alone an officer.

But I digress...

[Eclipse]

I don't disagree, but how does their wearing stripes change their ability?

Military NCO's have a lot to give our cadets and seniors, but so do teachers, officers and postmen.  If a military NCO is a good leader and mentor, the grade he wear makes no difference, beyond his wearing stripes makes him "different" (in many ways).

[Short Field]

I was opposed to a CAP Senior NCO Corps but have recently changed my mind.  Since I use to wear stripes, it would be great to have a NCO Corps where we could promote CAP NCOs.  Then I could turn in my officer rank and ask for NCO rank and progress up to Chief Master Sergeant or Command Chief Master Sergeant.  It could be a lot of fun and I bet I could get a bunch of others to join me going after the zebra stripes! We could all hang out in the Top Three room at the NCO club. 

[Ned]

I don't disagree, but how does their wearing stripes change their ability?

Military NCO's have a lot to give our cadets and seniors, but so do teachers, officers and postmen.  If a military NCO is a good leader and mentor, the grade he wear makes no difference, beyond his wearing stripes makes him "different" (in many ways).

Officer and NCO leadership styles are different.  It is mostly the difference between direct and indirect leadership, but there is more to it than just that.

CAP NCOs could and should model different behaviors than officers.  Obviously, since many terrific former RM NCOs wear CAP officer grade the skillset resides in many of our CP officers.  But it is harder for an officer to model the NCO behaviors and "lead by example."

I suspect we will never have enough NCOs to adequately staff all of our cadet and composite units in any event.  But there is definately a place for NCOs in CP.

[Major Carrales]

I don't disagree, but how does their wearing stripes change their ability?

Military NCO's have a lot to give our cadets and seniors, but so do teachers, officers and postmen.  If a military NCO is a good leader and mentor, the grade he wear makes no difference, beyond his wearing stripes makes him "different" (in many ways).

Officer and NCO leadership styles are different.  It is mostly the difference between direct and indirect leadership, but there is more to it than just that.

CAP NCOs could and should model different behaviors than officers.  Obviously, since many terrific former RM NCOs wear CAP officer grade the skillset resides in many of our CP officers.  But it is harder for an officer to model the NCO behaviors and "lead by example."

I suspect we will never have enough NCOs to adequately staff all of our cadet and composite units in any event.  But there is definately a place for NCOs in CP.

How so...NCO ranks would be "FULL METAL JACKET" and OFFICER RANKS would be "Sgt BILKO a.k.a 1956?"

Just a jest...so some degree...but, a CAP NCO corps, to be effective, would have to 1) have a mechinism for Promotion, 2) have a distinct place in CAP that made its best efforts most effectively visible and supported and 3) would have to have a stirring need to exist.

This would also mean having a CAP that operated under "strict military protocols" which would require a complete overhaul of CAP culture.  Then, it would be ridiculed for "playing soldier."

[FW]

To  have an effective "NCO Corps", CAP (members) must be willing to create and live with two distinct levels of active membership.  In an organization such as ours, I think that would be extremely difficult.  It is the main reason, IMO,  the NCO program died years ago. 

In the cadet program, it would be great to have an adult "NCO" to give that "direct leadership" experience to the cadets however, it may be better for our senior CP officers to guide our cadet NCO's to properly direct cadet airman.  The leadership laboratory should be designed for cadets to get the experience "hands on".  This makes the preference for senior member NCO's less important in the scheme of things.  I'm convinced there is no "need" for NCO's in CAP, no need for them in cadet programs and certainly, no need for them in the senior PD program.

[andysum15]

Morning All,
Having served with the Air Training Corps and Civil Air Patrol I would just like to let members know how the ATC does it. The ATC has both NCO and Officer ranks. An individual can apply for either, allowing them to progress through the NCO track or Officer. An NCO may at a future date apply for appointment as an officer. The NCO ranks consist of Sergeant, Flight Sergeant and Warrant Officer. NCO's will serve for four years as a Sergeant before being eligible for promotion to Flight Sergeant and then another four years to Warrant Officer. Officers are a little different two years at entry level Pilot Officer then promotion to Flying Officer. The next rank Flight Lieutenant is for Squadron Commanders and for officers who have 12 years service as an officer.
NCO ranks perform slightly different rolls, one of their main duties is drill and discipline but also carry out many other duties. The only one they can not do is become Squadron Commander.
I started my career with the ATC as a Warrant Officer (the other two ranks were introduced after I was commissioned and after I moved to the USA). For me it was an excellent way of developing skills I needed. If I had not taken this route I would not of been the officer I became. I went on to become a Squadron Commander in the ATC and am now a Squadron Commander in CAP. It is my experience that some people are best suited to being NCO's and some Officers. Just because some are NCO's does not mean they are lesser qualified. Their roll may be different but they are equally important. I for one would love to see NCO ranks brought in for Senior Members.

[Short Field]

Officer and NCO leadership styles are different.  It is mostly the difference between direct and indirect leadership, but there is more to it than just that.

CAP NCOs could and should model different behaviors than officers.  Obviously, since many terrific former RM NCOs wear CAP officer grade the skillset resides in many of our CP officers.  But it is harder for an officer to model the NCO behaviors and "lead by example."

NCOs in the USAF are technicians and marching troops around is something very few NCOs ever do unless they are TIs in a training environment - and then they have to learn how to do it.  You are confusing USAF NCOs with Army or Marine Corps NCOs. 

Ned - to say that it is harder for an officer to "lead by example" is just plain insulting to RM Commissioned Officers.  Most USAF officers learn how to march troops around while a Cadet.  That is something that is not taught to USAF airmen.  BTDT both enlisted and commissioned.

[Ned]

Ned - to say that it is harder for an officer to "lead by example" is just plain insulting to RM Commissioned Officers.  Most USAF officers learn how to march troops around while a Cadet.  That is something that is not taught to USAF airmen.  BTDT both enlisted and commissioned.

It was certainly not my intent to insult anyone - I leave that to some of the other regulars here on CAPTalk.   

After all, I am a retired Infantry officer and spent multiple decades dealing with highly competent NCOs and highly competent officers.

But wouldn't you agree with me that it would be difficult for a CAP officer to "lead by example" and model NCO behaviors and skillsets? 

Heck, I pointed out that a lot of terrific CAP officers are actual former RM NCOs - it's not a question of competence or knowledge in many cases.

But officers are supposed to lead and act like officers, and NCO's are supposed to lead and act like . . . (wait for it) . . . NCOs. 

And there are differences.  Important differences that have served the military well for several thousand years.

That's my point.  Cadets can llearn from textbooks, mentoring, coaching, experience, etc.

But they also learn by watching role models.  I think they would be well served by having a chance to watch high-speed NCOs ply their craft.  It can be a wonder to observe.

[arajca]

Unfortunately, the CAP cadet nco program and USAF NCO program are very different creatures. Not just in the particpants, but also in the goals. Contrary to what many cadets seem to believe, C/CMSgt is not the pinnicle of the cadet program. It isn't even half way through.

As for the notion that all RM NCOs are so incredibly awesome that no officer could ever hope to hold a candle to them - BULL PUCKEY. I have met good ncos and not-so-good ncos in about the same percentage as officers and civilians. When you have CAP NCOs going around pointing at their srtipes and telling folks "When you see these, think Lt Col" you have problem children who, IMNSHO, shouldn't be in CAP.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

We'd be much better served by looking at either Flight Officer or Specialist grades for those members who just want to do "x" and never progress, etc.

Which would basically be bringing back CAP Warrant Officers, something I've long supported.

You do one job, focus on that and you're GTG.

I'd trade my Captain's bars for CWO3.

Also, the USAF doesn't have Warrants, so there'd be no confusion with them.