Achievement Ribbon

[Flying Pig]

Any word on the status of when we can start awarding it?

[PHall]

Is it even available from Vanguard yet?

[Pylon]

Is it even available from Vanguard yet?

Well, since an ICL hasn't authorized it to be awarded or even give procedures and approving authority for awarding.  There's also no guidance for where it goes in the order of precedence.   So if Vanguard were to suddenly offer an "Achievement Ribbon" I'd assume it would be mostly useless until these things were official (even if we could probably guess as to how most of these items will turn out)

[Cecil DP]

At the National Boards the subject of the "achievement" Ribbon arose and we were told that it was authorized, but that the certificates and ribbon's were still in production. You can recommend it and it can be approved at Wing or Group today. They just don't have the paraphernalia available.

[Pylon]

At the National Boards the subject of the "achievement" Ribbon arose and we were told that it was authorized, but that the certificates and ribbon's were still in production. You can recommend it and it can be approved at Wing or Group today. They just don't have the paraphernalia available.

Then whomever at the National Boards that disbursed that information has a very poor grasp of how Civil Air Patrol works.  Unless the National Board votes and issues a change to CAPR 5-4, ICL's or new regulations still have to be issued.  Just because the NB voted to approve something and it appears in their minutes never means that it is automatically authorized right there on the spot.  Some people love to think so.

[jayleswo]

[Unless the National Board votes and issues a change to CAPR 5-4, ICL's or new regulations still have to be issued.  Just because the NB voted to approve something and it appears in their minutes never means that it is automatically authorized right there on the spot.  Some people love to think so.

Uh, take alook at CAP Knowledgebase Answer# 1261 which actually states:
"The minutes and agenda items are available under CAP E-Services. Agenda items are in effect when approved by the national board/NEC. The minutes themselves are subject to approval at the next National Board/NEC Meeting."

-- John

[RiverAux]

The decision has been made, but no one can act on it until it is in the regulations as outlined by Pylon. 

[Pylon]

Uh, take alook at CAP Knowledgebase Answer# 1261 which actually states:

And we all know which side wins the age-old CAP forum debate about which side wins when you find conflicting information in published CAP Regulations and the online CAP knowledgebase...

[lordmonar]

Uh, take alook at CAP Knowledgebase Answer# 1261 which actually states:

And we all know which side wins the age-old CAP forum debate about which side wins when you find conflicting information in published CAP Regulations and the online CAP knowledgebase...

I vote Knowledgebase....but that is an argument for another thread.

bottom line.....

Other than the NB deciding to have an acheivment ribbon....no other guidance is available.

Standby to standby.

[DNall]

[Unless the National Board votes and issues a change to CAPR 5-4, ICL's or new regulations still have to be issued.  Just because the NB voted to approve something and it appears in their minutes never means that it is automatically authorized right there on the spot.  Some people love to think so.

Uh, take alook at CAP Knowledgebase Answer# 1261 which actually states:
"The minutes and agenda items are available under CAP E-Services. Agenda items are in effect when approved by the national board/NEC. The minutes themselves are subject to approval at the next National Board/NEC Meeting."

The KB is usually pretty good, but that answer is wrong. The NEC/NB have not been the governing bodies of CAP since 2000. For some items they have authority delegated to them by the BoG or AF & for others they don't. So, nothing is legit till it's updated in regs or an ICL, which means it's been approved up the chain - in this case by AF for wear on uniforms.

[Eclipse]

See AFI 10-2701 "Organization and Function of the Civil Air Patrol"

A1.2.4. CAP Governing Bodies. CAP controls its administration as a corporation through three governing bodies: the Board of Governors, National Board, and National Executive Committee.

A1.2.4.1. CAP Board of Governors. The Board of Governors (BOG) is the governing body of the CAP Corporation. The BOG is composed of four members appointed by the SECAF, four members elected by CAP, and three members from "interested organizations" jointly selected by the SECAF and CAP. The BOG has the authority to do any act necessary and proper to carry out the purposes of the corporation, including adopting and amending the CAP Constitution and Bylaws. In practice, the BOG serves as the strategic policy making and guidance body for CAP by reviewing and determining long-range plans and programs. The BOG also serves as a pool of expert advisers, oversees the CAP Inspector General and Membership Action Review Board, and supervises the CAP Committee structure. A detailed description of the CAP Board of Governors is contained in AFI 10-2702, Board of Governors of the Civil Air Patrol.

A1.2.4.2. CAP National Board. The BOG has left much of the day-to-day operations of CAP to the National Board, 67 members comprised of the CAP National Commander and CAP National Vice-Commander, the CAP wing and region commanders, and several other national level officers as well as the CAP-USAF Commander, who is a non-voting member. This group also elects the CAP National Commander and National Vice-Commander. The CAP National Board meets twice a year to conduct the business of the corporation.

A1.2.4.3. CAP National Executive Committee. During the periods that the CAP National Board is not in session, National Board powers are delegated to the National Executive Committee (NEC). The NEC has of 15 members comprised of the CAP National Commander, CAP National Vice-Commander, CAP region commanders, and several other national level officers as well as the CAP-USAF Commander, who is a non-voting member. This group has all of the power of the National Board. This group meets as required to conduct the business of the corporation.

Therefore, with the exception of powers specified as exclusive to the BOG, either the NB or NEC may, at times, create or change regulations, and how they are published is irrelevant.  They are in effect when the body issuing the change says they are.

[Pylon]

Therefore, with the exception of powers specified as exclusive to the BOG, either the NB or NEC may, at times, create or change regulations, and how they are published is irrelevant.  They are in effect when the body issuing the change says they are.

Except for the fact that they too are bound by CAPR 5-4 (unless they vote to change it), and they can't add items to the AF-style uniforms without approval from the Air Force (before or after the fact). 

That's why we wait for official guidance in the appropriate format.  Simply because the NB or NEC approved it doesn't mean that the AF has, or that all the fine details have been clarified and decided and formalized.  From our perspective of John Q. Member reading NB minutes, we simply don't have access to that information. 

[Eclipse]

I assume you are referring to the limitations on ICL's (180 days), and the requirement to publish a new regulation on anything intended to stay permanent within 90 days.

Both are anecdotally interesting, but not all that relevant to the same John Q.

The only thing the 180 might buy you is if you were disciplined because you didn't adhere to an ICL, and were disciplined after 180 days with no new reg.

The 90 days is something that a Compliance Inspection could gig NHQ on, but beyond that isn't really all that meaningful.

Should NHQ adhere to the rules? Yes. Should they be held accountable if they don't?  Yes.

Does that change the practical application of ICL's and supplements?  No.

[DNall]

Therefore, with the exception of powers specified as exclusive to the BOG, either the NB or NEC may, at times, create or change regulations, and how they are published is irrelevant.  They are in effect when the body issuing the change says they are.

Actually, just as a point of order, you have that backwards. The NB/NEC have ONLY the powers explicitly delegated to them, and only at the pleasure (subject to approval/veto) of the BoG. The BOG has all powers over CAP not expressly granted to the AF (in this case appvl of items on the AF-style uniform, but it would also include issues with real property, federal funds, financial tracking, etc).

In this case, the NB vote is subject to review by AF. This is one of those cases where that is mostly a formality, but we do have to wait for it to occur.

Except for the fact that they too are bound by CAPR 5-4 (unless they vote to change it), and they can't add items to the AF-style uniforms without approval from the Air Force (before or after the fact). 

That's why we wait for official guidance in the appropriate format.  Simply because the NB or NEC approved it doesn't mean that the AF has, or that all the fine details have been clarified and decided and formalized.  From our perspective of John Q. Member reading NB minutes, we simply don't have access to that information. 

That's right.

Should NHQ adhere to the rules? Yes. Should they be held accountable if they don't?  Yes.

Also an issue that's commonly cited as one of AF's frustrations with CAP.

An ICL could be issued allowing the ribbon to be awarded & stating the policy for doing so, but not authorizing its sale/purchase or wear until AF approval is granted. CAP/CC has apparently decided not to issue that ICL & let the AF consider the matter w/o making assumptions for them. I personally believe that's good politics, especially given our recent past.

[Eclipse]

Actually, just as a point of order, you have that backwards. The NB/NEC have ONLY the powers explicitly delegated to them, and only at the pleasure (subject to approval/veto) of the BoG. The BOG has all powers over CAP not expressly granted to the AF (in this case appvl of items on the AF-style uniform, but it would also include issues with real property, federal funds, financial tracking, etc).

Not quite: 

The NB has exclusive powers of its own:

The National Board shall have the exclusive power to:
a. Elect the National Commander and National Vice Commander.
b. Adopt regulations governing the removal of the National Commander and National Vice Commander.
c. Establish, increase, and lower national dues for all categories of membership.
d. Confirm the appointment of the National Chief of Staff, National Legal Officer, National Finance
Officer, National Controller, National Inspector General, and National Chief of Chaplain Service.
e. Approve Hall of Honor nominees and grant Life Membership.

[James Shaw]

I spoke with the Vanguard Manager about the award itself. I wanted to buy 1 for my colleciton. They told me that the 1st run was not good and that the colors for the ribbon were bad. I was told that the criteria is very braod and the order of precedence will be below the Commanders Comm. Like I have said before I only design I dont get the chance to do the "detail stuff" somethimes. I will see what I can find out.

[lordmonar]

Therefore, with the exception of powers specified as exclusive to the BOG, either the NB or NEC may, at times, create or change regulations, and how they are published is irrelevant.  They are in effect when the body issuing the change says they are.

Except for the fact that they too are bound by CAPR 5-4 (unless they vote to change it), and they can't add items to the AF-style uniforms without approval from the Air Force (before or after the fact). 

Show me anywhere in regulation, AFI, or law that says that?

The USAF veto on uniform changes is as much a traditional understanding as many of the things we do.

[IceNine]

aCAP members are authorized to wear CAP distinctive uniforms as well as
uniforms similar to the U.S. Air Force. Civil Air Patrol uses distinctive emblems, insignia, and
badges to identify individuals wearing the AF-style uniforms as CAP members. Wear of the
AF-style uniforms, as well as the insignia, badges, and devices worn on these uniforms are as
prescribed by the Commander, CAP-USAF, with the approval of Headquarters USAF.

Like this.

[lordmonar]

aCAP members are authorized to wear CAP distinctive uniforms as well as
uniforms similar to the U.S. Air Force. Civil Air Patrol uses distinctive emblems, insignia, and
badges to identify individuals wearing the AF-style uniforms as CAP members. Wear of the
AF-style uniforms, as well as the insignia, badges, and devices worn on these uniforms are as
prescribed by the Commander, CAP-USAF, with the approval of Headquarters USAF.

Like this.

Like I said.....it is CAP giving USAF the veto power.....there is NO AFI/AFPD or law that saiys the USAF has  that power.

[Eclipse]

Like I said.....it is CAP giving USAF the veto power.....there is NO AFI/AFPD or law that says the USAF has  that power.

Actually AFI-2701 says exactly that:

1.3.2. Uniform Wear and Personal Appearance. CAP members are authorized to wear CAP or Air
Force-style uniforms in accordance with CAP regulations (civilian clothing may be worn when specific
missions dictate). The Air Force controls the configuration of the Air Force-style uniform worn
by CAP members.

1.3.4. CAP Distinctive Uniforms and Insignia. The emblems, insignia, and badges of the CAP Air
Force-style uniform will clearly identify an individual as a CAP member at a distance and in low-light
conditions. The Air Force must approve changes to the CAP Air Force-style uniform. CAP distinctive
uniforms must be sufficiently different from U.S. Armed Forces uniforms so that confusion will not
occur.

(I was inclined to agree with your assertion, but was also pretty sure I'd read the above somewhere)

[RiverAux]

well, technically it relates back to the federal law regarding unauthorized wear of US military uniforms. 

[MIKE]

All this for a li'l bitty ribbon.

[davedove]

All this for a li'l bitty ribbon.

That's a good point.  Does CAP have to get approval for each and every ribbon worn on the AF uniform, or did they at some time get approval for "CAP distinctive" ribbons as a group?

It would make a lot more sense if they just got approval for all CAP ribbons, maybe with AF having veto power over any particular ribbon.

[O-Rex]

All this for a li'l bitty ribbon.

Napoleon once said that he could send men to certain death for simple pieces of ribbon.

Here men beat subjects to certain death over simple pieces of ribbon.



Back to the subject: what actually IS the ribbon and what is the award criteria?

[DC]

The general idea is an award that is more than a Certificate of Appriciation, but less than a Commander's Commendation. It is to be approvable on the group (or in the case of a wing without groups, wing) level.

[DNall]

Actually, just as a point of order, you have that backwards. The NB/NEC have ONLY the powers explicitly delegated to them, and only at the pleasure (subject to approval/veto) of the BoG. The BOG has all powers over CAP not expressly granted to the AF (in this case appvl of items on the AF-style uniform, but it would also include issues with real property, federal funds, financial tracking, etc).

Not quite: 

The NB has exclusive powers of its own:

The National Board shall have the exclusive power to:
a. Elect the National Commander and National Vice Commander.
b. Adopt regulations governing the removal of the National Commander and National Vice Commander.
c. Establish, increase, and lower national dues for all categories of membership.
d. Confirm the appointment of the National Chief of Staff, National Legal Officer, National Finance
Officer, National Controller, National Inspector General, and National Chief of Chaplain Service.
e. Approve Hall of Honor nominees and grant Life Membership.

Okay, narrow area, but again that is being expressly delegated to NB by BoG thru the vehicle of the constitution/bylaws over which the BoG has sole authority.

And that Napoleon quote is "A soldier will fight long and hard for a bit of colored ribbon." Just as CAP members will take open book tests, and show up to SaRExs & sit thru boring training, etc for the same bit of otherwise meaningless bling.

[Flying Pig]

OK, so......its not availble to buy, and we havnt established the criteria.

[DNall]

or order of precedence, and isn't quite yet authorized for recommendation or award.

gist being... be patient, it's on the way.

[sjtrupp]

<Bump>

Any update as to if the ribbon is available?  Can the Certificate be ordered?

[AlphaSigOU]

<Bump>

Any update as to if the ribbon is available?  Can the Certificate be ordered?

Not yet... reportedly the first batch of ribbons got canned because the colors weren't right. I'm certain that the certificate has been designed and is ready to go, but they are holding up until stocks are ready at VG. They'll have to redesign CAPF 120 to include the National Commander's Unit Citation and the new Achievement Award; not to mention the National Commander's/Region Commander's Commendation.

[TankerT]

The Ribbon is Available via telephone, as is the mini-medal from Vanguard.  (I ordered some last week.)

I have a stack of 150 certificates in front of me.  Same size as the Commander's Commendation award, but the paper is more of a glossy stock than the parchment look to the CCA.

[ol'fido]

Instead of debating when something becomes authorized or who can authorize it, why don't we all wait until it comes out in writing( at least electronically in the online 39-1 or icl. Is everybody that anxious to get another ribbon? I've got enough or maybe too many and don't need anymore.

[cnitas]

Is everybody that anxious to get another ribbon? I've got enough or maybe too many and don't need anymore.

No, but I am anxious to start recommending people for this award.  We have long needed an award like this to commend people for things done on a local level.

[Pylon]

No, but I am anxious to start recommending people for this award.  We have long needed an award like this to commend people for things done on a local level.

Like the Commander's Commendation, the new award will quickly be curtailed and reserved for awarding to only those on the "inside" while hard-working squadron staffers continue to be denied any recognition whatsoever, making it just that much harder for us to retain our most valued volunteers for our units.

[cnitas]

Not an optimist are ya?

[DC]

^ He is not too far off base. I have seen Commander's Comm and even things like Meritorious and Exceptional Service Awards handed out for the most trivial things, while people who have really gone the extra mile to do something get a 'good job' and maybe a certificate of appreciation at the end of the year.

[Eclipse]

Like the Commander's Commendation, the new award will quickly be curtailed and reserved for awarding to only those on the "inside" while hard-working squadron staffers continue to be denied any recognition whatsoever, making it just that much harder for us to retain our most valued volunteers for our units.

I have never seen a properly prepared Comm Comm denied.  What I have seen is a lot of commanders who won't take the time and effort to write one, because a certificate can be whipped out on your PC and you can get a plaque at the mall on the way to the holiday party.

A Comm Comm takes preparation, effort, and probably at least a month to push through.

[Pylon]

Not an optimist are ya?

Just a realist with a big enough pile of denied CAPF 120's (many with several pages of lengthy detail) to know that the only recognition I'll ever be able to get for my volunteers is something I can approve at the squadron level.  So for now, unfortunately, my hardest working volunteers get Certificates of Appreciation and I make a big deal out of it, put together an awards banquet once a year, and hope that it's enough recognition on top of the regular "thank yous".  Thankfully, the good volunteers aren't in it for the recognition anyways -- just sucks that I can't give them appropriate-level recognition whether they want it or not.

I have never seen a properly prepared Comm Comm denied.  What I have seen is a lot of commanders who won't take the time and effort to write one, because a certificate can be whipped out on your PC and you can get a plaque at the mall on the way to the holiday party.

A Comm Comm takes preparation, effort, and probably at least a month to push through.

You want to see properly prepared 2 to 4-page CAPF 120's that were denied?  Email me.  You can have you pick of examples.

[Eclipse]

You want to see properly prepared 2 to 4-page CAPF 120's that were denied?  Email me.  You can have you pick of examples.

No thank you.  We've all got stories where CAP life was unfair.  Sorry it sucks so much by you.   

I will grant that if my CAP universe were similar to some of what I hear about from other states, my CAP career would have likely been a lot shorter.

[Larry Mangum]

I personally know of several commander commendations that were turned down in MAWG, that were denied on the basis, that while the individuals might be worthy, the unit wanted to many of them, so some were denied.

[cnitas]

I hear what you guys are saying, and years back we had that problem in Maryland (but not so much anymore). 

I have written 4 120s and 3 have been eventually approved as written with one replaced with a different (higher) award, so (luckily) my experience is different.

[jimmydeanno]

Here's a good one for you:

Senior Member recruits 70 new members as part of a recruiting effort.  Recruits 10 new CFIIs.  Local squadrons near the event realize a 44% increase in membership.  Certificate of Appreciation.

Cadet helps another cadet on an obstacle course.  Commander's Commendation.

It also drives me crazy when Drill Teams and Color Guards are awarded commander's commendations and meritorious service awards for winning at the different levels.  Isn't that why they get the star attachments on their ribbons?

[cnitas]

Yes, but your recruiting superstar also gets 10 clasps on his ribbon.

[DC]

Here's a good one for you:

Senior Member recruits 70 new members as part of a recruiting effort.  Recruits 10 new CFIIs.  Local squadrons near the event realize a 44% increase in membership.  Certificate of Appreciation.

Cadet helps another cadet on an obstacle course.  Commander's Commendation.

It also drives me crazy when Drill Teams and Color Guards are awarded commander's commendations and meritorious service awards for winning at the different levels.  Isn't that why they get the star attachments on their ribbons?

Yeah, thats the idea. The most recent NCGC champs got Exceptional Service Awards...

Or the person that holds something for the Wing CC at emcampment and gets a Commander's Commendation for it...

What about the cadet that doesn't sleep for 36 hours while preparing for an open house, covering up the crappy work others did? Shouldn't they get something?

It really all comes down to who you know, and if your superiors are savvy enough or care enough to submit the award up the chain.. That is sad.

We are all volunteers, and I'm sure we all take pleasure in serving our country, but sometimes a little regognition is nice, but it really stings when you see it go to someone who doesn't really deserve what they are getting.

[Eclipse]

Yes, but your recruiting superstar also gets 10 clasps on his ribbon.

And the regs are pretty clear that you're not supposed to be recognized with a decoration for simply doing your job "well".

As to comparing one member's contribution to another in terms of decorations, that's a bad road to walk because it never leads anywhere positive, and I'm sure you those of you in compensated services know of plenty of adjutants wearing a shoulder full of ribbons, while front-liners doing "real" work get little to nothing.

Pylon's frustrations aside, most situations I've seen were because one commander had a good copywriter and one couldn't be bothered to complete the form.

And actually, if you have that many high-speed performers who are getting denied legit decorations because of inertia at higher HQ, maybe its time to start making noise.

At the end of the day, though, its all subjective, and I personally know a number of people wearing heavy decs for things I didn't personally consider all that big a deal, or worse they shouldn't be doing at all. (i.e. one man's "success" is another man's ignorance of the regs, rules, or common sense).

[jimmydeanno]

Yes, but your recruiting superstar also gets 10 clasps on his ribbon.

And the regs are pretty clear that you're not supposed to be recognized with a decoration for simply doing your job "well".

"Recruiting Superstar" wasn't his normal job, someone just tagged him for "organizing the event."  Ended up recruiting a bunch of people out of it.

But the decorations are awarded just for "doing your job well."  Congratulations, you've been the Assistant Region Testing Officer for the last two years.  Here's an exceptional.  Oh...Squadron Commander of the year?  Yeah, here's your certificate of appreciation...

YMMV.

[DNall]

Yes, but your recruiting superstar also gets 10 clasps on his ribbon.

And the regs are pretty clear that you're not supposed to be recognized with a decoration for simply doing your job "well".

"Recruiting Superstar" wasn't his normal job, someone just tagged him for "organizing the event."  Ended up recruiting a bunch of people out of it.

But the decorations are awarded just for "doing your job well."  Congratulations, you've been the Assistant Region Testing Officer for the last two years.  Here's an exceptional.  Oh...Squadron Commander of the year?  Yeah, here's your certificate of appreciation...

YMMV.

That's right. You don't get decorated for doing your job to the standards set in regs, inspections, by higher, & within commander's intent. You DO get decorated (or should) for doing that job above standard, which includes comparison to how well your peers would be expected to perform - meaning a Major with X qualifications, and Y experience... okay say the master rated wing PD officer steps down & takes over PD for a Sq. That guy turns the program around & makes it successful, well that's not the same accomplishment as a 1LT with a couple years experience getting handed the job & having similar results while picking up a tech rating.

[AvroArrow]

What is this "Achievement" Ribbon?? 

A ribbon that congratulates Cadets achieving the Wright Brothers? 

[DC]

What is this "Achievement" Ribbon?? 

A ribbon that congratulates Cadets achieving the Wright Brothers? 

Where did you get that?!

Read the entire thread, your questions will be answered.

[pixelwonk]

Curious...  does the ribbon look like this, or whats depicted on page 25 of the Mar NB minutes?

[AvroArrow]

The general idea is an award that is more than a Certificate of Appriciation, but less than a Commander's Commendation. It is to be approvable on the group (or in the case of a wing without groups, wing) level.

Thanks 

[addo1]

   There is a cadet in my squadron that I would like to nominate for the achievement ribbon. Does anyone know if this ribbon is acually in regs yet, and if it is, what the process for nomination someone is? Thanks.

[RiverAux]

They just posted a new form and I believe it was listed on that form. 

[Major Carrales]

They just posted a new form and I believe it was listed on that form. 

Already pointed Addo in the right direction via yahoo chat.