Nevada Wing's NEW emblem

[lordmonar]

unless your wing commander takes the optional out of the bdu wing patch requirement

Or subordinate unit...if higher HQ guidance is lacking.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

The patch does NOT comply with Air Force heraldry directives.

If I remember correctly, existing emblems, or those of parent organizations, cannot be repeated within other units' emblems.

The Nevada emblem is a shield, cut down the middle diagonally, with the Nevada state flag detail above and the CAP triangle below. It may say "Nevada" and "CAP," but is not a distinctive unit insignia.

If Florida's working on a new insignia, I suggest they go back to the gator. Many of the old CAP wing patches could translate into the shield quite nicely, and the World War II-era emblems would be done justice just fine. Just put the old emblem into the shield. It's nothing the Air Force hasn't done repeatedly.

[alamrcn]

If I remember correctly, existing emblems, or those of parent organizations, cannot be repeated within other units' emblems.

I believe that the part of Nevada's flag is considered a "standard" and not an emblem. There are a few people who know way more about these things than I can even pretend to.

The triangle with tri-prop is Civil Air Patrol's basic symbol, and it is PART of a larger emblem. But Civil Air Patrol isn't our parent organization, it IS our organization. If using this form of emblem is not USAF heraldry compliant, it is the one place where we need to break those rules so our emblems are distinctive from Air Force emblems.

FWIW, Air Force yellow isn't really a CAP color. If CAP ever created its own heraldry guidelines, which I still don't see happening, the "colors" required would probably be ultramarine blue and scarlet red. White/silver could be possible to replace yellow/gold as a "metal" as well.

I don't think FLWG is looking to bring back Mosley's alligator in its entirety, but I'll bet there will be some kind of symbolic "reference" to it in the new design. Whatever happens, it's always good to glance back to the past, before we jump into the future.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Hey, if the Flying Tigers can keep their cartoon tiger, Florida Wing can bring back the gator!

I agree that Air Force Yellow isn't a CAP color. I disagree that the CAP triangle has to be in Every. Friggin. Patch. In. CAP. You don't see the Air Force eagle or the AF shield detail in every wing/group/squadron emblem. We know by the shape of the emblem that it's an Air Force organization (whether the boiler shield or the disc).

In CAP, the same logic should apply. Otherwise, we might as well use a cheapo clip-art CD from Office Depot and say, "hey, this is our original insignia!"

An emblem should speak to the unit's history and capabilities, not mirror someone else's emblems, whether they're a parent organization or not. That's where Nevada's new patch doesn't hold up. Even melding the Nevada flag emblem and the CAP triangle TOGETHER would have been more original.

[alamrcn]

I agree, very few USAF patches have the stylized wings or other identifiable AF icon. But if we're going to base our emblem designs off the AF - in particular, the shape - SOMETHING has to make it unique to CAP. Something has to set it apart from an AF emblem, or even an AFJROTC emblem. Literally stating "CAP" or "Civil Air Patrol" may not be as easy as the tri-prop, and at times it gets a little redundant all over the uniform.

Yes, the emblem should identify and represent the members that will wear it. However, our units do not have single or dedicated purposes like the AF - except for the so called "rapid responce groups" out there. So highlighting a unit strengths or capabilities isn't always a good idea, especially because that can change in just a few years. CAP's three missions are for all of us, and are not for picking and choosing. Sure a unit might be talented and gung-ho in Search and Rescue, but it should strive to meet the other two missions with equal effort and skill level.

One of the regs, not sure which, suggests naming a new unit for it's geographical area, and I think that is a good focus for the emblem as well. In addition to involving other stuff. Our wings are divided why state boarders anyway, and it's hard to represent an entire state with an easy to identify subject.

Several of our wing patches already use their state's flag - AZ and CO come to mind. Or a state icon, like the keystone for PA or bear for CA. Symbols of history, like Rushmore for SD and the Wright Flyer for NC. Etc. Etc. What easily identifies Nevada? I mean, other than that!

Thank you for the discussion.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

You've hit on it -- the emblems should represent the locality, since most (if not all) CAP units have the same mission. But copping an existing emblem isn't quite the way to do it. Every area has a local identity, and it can be parlayed into what CAP units do somehow.

It may take a little bit of creative thinking, some reflection, whatever, but it can be done!

[SJFedor]

I scored one of those patches from a certain CAPTalk'er after he did an outstanding job on his initial CAPF 91 checkride.

[lordmonar]

I'm not quite sure what you object to on the new NVWG patch?

Because we were not creative enough?

The old patch was a bloody blue circle with the silhouette of the state and the word Nevada on it......as far as USAF heraldry standards.....there are NO standards....a lot of units got stuck with someone else's emblem when Gen I'llnotsayhisname decided that some unit's history was more important then existing units.

So....when we....and I mean me and someone else....decided to submit an change, we specifically wanted to use something that represented the state and something that represented CAP. 

So...we went simple....no need to fake any symbolism, or make the patch too busy.

[SSgt Rudin]

That is a sweet looking patch. It is simple, but discriptive, and it complies with proper heraldry.  :clap:

I really wish FLWG would bring back the old alligator patch, it was before my time, but it has much more 'character' than the current patch. ............

If you have ever or ever get a chance to see the national historian's stuff, they have an (unauthorized) subdued version of the gator patch that someone had made.

Side note, they have a lot of cool "unauthorized" stuff from CAP's history; i.e. a "Civil Air Patrol Air Police" brassard from WWII

[DC]

That is a sweet looking patch. It is simple, but discriptive, and it complies with proper heraldry.  :clap:

I really wish FLWG would bring back the old alligator patch, it was before my time, but it has much more 'character' than the current patch. ............

If you have ever or ever get a chance to see the national historian's stuff, they have an (unauthorized) subdued version of the gator patch that someone had made.

I want to say I've seen a picture of that somewhere...

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Lordmonar:

My criticism isn't a matter of "creativity." The emblem has a clip-art feel. Surely there is some imagery that better reflects Nevada than the flag detail. After all, it's "the Silver State." No silver, no sense of the state's natural features, or how CAP's missions in Nevada work with them... 

I agree the emblem needs not be "busy." Heaven knows there's a bunch of CAP patches that don't reproduce well as patches. But while the Nevada patch may not be "busy," it doesn't reflect anything but someone else's logos and emblems, co-opted.

Does that help?

[lordmonar]

Lordmonar:

My criticism isn't a matter of "creativity." The emblem has a clip-art feel. Surely there is some imagery that better reflects Nevada than the flag detail. After all, it's "the Silver State." No silver, no sense of the state's natural features, or how CAP's missions in Nevada work with them... 

I agree the emblem needs not be "busy." Heaven knows there's a bunch of CAP patches that don't reproduce well as patches. But while the Nevada patch may not be "busy," it doesn't reflect anything but someone else's logos and emblems, co-opted.

Does that help?

So it is about lack of creativity.  Nevada's patch represents our state and our organisation in a simple cut and paste operation. 

[RiverAux]

C'mon, isn't anyone going to complain about a CAP patch referencing combat?   

Actually, I think Nevada using the phrase "battle born" is pretty darn cheesy.  Just because they happened to become a state during the Civil War, doesn't mean you were "battle born".  Its not like they had to fight to become a state. 

[Major Carrales]

I am afraid that this is a bit asinine, the NEVADA BASHING MUST STOP!!! 

I don't mind the design at all, it looks professional to me...the Nevada specific items and CAP symbols display a good WING Patch.

Just don't suddenly call for a RADICAL REDESIGN of all the Wing Patches based on that.  Let is happen in its own time.

[alamrcn]

If you have ever or ever get a chance to see the national historian's stuff, they have an (unauthorized) subdued version of the gator patch that someone had made.

This one?


I think that the Nevada Wing members will be pleased with their new emblem over the old one they've used for the last 55 years - authorized February 5, 1953.

My copy of the patch is on its way to me (I hope), and I'll be posting its image and as much history about it as I can on the CAP Patches website.

[PHall]

C'mon, isn't anyone going to complain about a CAP patch referencing combat?   

Actually, I think Nevada using the phrase "battle born" is pretty darn cheesy.  Just because they happened to become a state during the Civil War, doesn't mean you were "battle born".  Its not like they had to fight to become a state. 

Just happens to be the State Motto. It's also on the state flag.

So what's your point?

[RiverAux]

My point was that its silly to be on the state flag given that the state really wasn't born in battle.  I'd say West Virginia has a better claim to it than Nevada.  At least they were fought over in the Civil War.

Being that it is there, I don't have a particular problem with CAP using it as part of a wing patch though. 

[PHall]

My point was that its silly to be on the state flag given that the state really wasn't born in battle.  I'd say West Virginia has a better claim to it than Nevada.  At least they were fought over in the Civil War.

Being that it is there, I don't have a particular problem with CAP using it as part of a wing patch though. 

See, there's your problem. You think they're referring to the Civil War.

You think they were referring to something else, like maybe the Indians (aka Native Americans).

The "Indian Wars" were fairly nasty and went on from the 1840's all the way thru the 1890's.

[DC]

My point was that its silly to be on the state flag given that the state really wasn't born in battle.  I'd say West Virginia has a better claim to it than Nevada.  At least they were fought over in the Civil War.

Being that it is there, I don't have a particular problem with CAP using it as part of a wing patch though. 

See, there's your problem. You think they're referring to the Civil War.

You think they were referring to something else, like maybe the Indians (aka Native Americans).

The "Indian Wars" were fairly nasty and went on from the 1840's all the way thru the 1890's.

Nope. "Battle Born" refers to the Civil War.

In 1864, Nevada became the 36th state to enter the union, and the phrase "Battle Born" on the state flag reflects the state's entry on the Union side during the American Civil War. Its first settlement was called Mormon Station.

[RiverAux]

Don't worry, I did my research before shooting my mouth off.