Winter Green Fleece Hat - allowed?

Started by Hoodsie, March 21, 2018, 12:16:35 PM

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Hoodsie

Just throwing this out there.  I can find nothing specific out there in the regulations that allows members (cadets or seniors) to wear the green fleece winter hat with their ABU fleece coat or ABU coat.  It's quite possible I'm missing something so feel free to point me in the right direction or confirm that I am right in my understanding of this.

TheSkyHornet

The black watchcap or ABU patrol cap are both authorized; the fleece is not authorized.


Remember: Even though the Air Force may authorize something does not mean it is authorized under CAP regulations.

kwe1009

If you can't find a regulation that allows something then it is not allowed.  39-1 is pretty clear on what headgear is allowed.  The ABU supplement is a little fuzzy because they updated it to allow some things but didn't change all of the wording.

Hoodsie

Thanks for the replies and I agree with all of the above.  My reason for asking was that I had a member in my Wing pose this question on Knowledgebase. The response they received was that is WAS allowed. 

Without going into details, another individual at the Region level said it WAS allowed. 

Like you, I can find nothing that specifically allows it yet was met with pushback from this individual when I confronted him on this issue.

I've sought further clarification from NHQ and will post accordingly


Eclipse

If Region and National say it's allowed, and knowing the mess the uniform regs are in,
not to mention no one cares, why are you burning calories on this?

"That Others May Zoom"

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: Eclipse on March 21, 2018, 03:21:33 PM
If Region and National say it's allowed, and knowing the mess the uniform regs are in,
not to mention no one cares, why are you burning calories on this?

Because then I come in and say NHQ told us that it isn't allowed, only the black watch cap.

So it's a he-said/she-said.

This is why regulations are published for all personnel to see, and why memos are important (to be readily accessible) with additional instructions/guidance as necessary.

Let's break it down Barney style---

Wear Instructions for the CAP Airman Battle Uniform (ABU)
QuoteHeadgear. The ABU cap is the only authorized headgear with this uniform.

QuoteCold Weather Accessories. Cold weather accessories will only be worn when wearing authorized outer garments (Exception: gloves worn solely with ABUs).

CAPM 39-1 describes the various cold weather garments that can be worn (e.g., ear muffs). There is nothing in any CAP publication about a fleece watch cap for neither ABUs or BDUs. It's not authorized.

Region is not the authority on the uniform regulations; National is. If NHQ has not published it, it's not true. The fact that people say "Well I was told" is why messy regulations become an even bigger enforcement mess.

Eclipse

All of the above is both true and not true - there isn't even currently a regulation-valid
authorization for the ABU at >all<
, so while I agree in principle, it fails on the practical.

"That Others May Zoom"

kwe1009

Quote from: Eclipse on March 21, 2018, 04:42:22 PM
All of the above is both true and not true - there isn't even currently a regulation-valid
authorization for the ABU at >all<
, so while I agree in principle, it fails on the practical.

This is true and I'm not sure why NHQ didn't just issue an ICL for ABUs.  It would have taken about 5-10 more minutes to produce, if that.

arajca

The fine folks At Maxwell do not usually think about those of us in northern climes when writing regs. For example, in CO, we've gone round and round on tires for vehicles and how the cheaper highway tread tires are completely inappropriate when the precipitation is solid rather liquid and stays on the roads until mechanically removed. We finally won that one.

OldGuy

And winter weather creates situations where outerwear that normally is not authorized - is, if weather conditions make that sensible. At least as I recall.

Eclipse

Quote from: Cicero on March 21, 2018, 09:07:32 PM
And winter weather creates situations where outerwear that normally is not authorized - is, if weather conditions make that sensible. At least as I recall.

That stance is currently only canonized in 60-1.

"That Others May Zoom"

Hoodsie

#11
Here's the official word I received from NHQ.  I don't necessarily agree as I think there should be some regulation or ICL that specifically calls it out but I guess I will "stop burning calories" on this.

The green fleece hat is authorized as a Cold Weather Accessory.  It is not specifically mentioned in the ICL or in the regulation.

I hope this helps~

Susan

Susan Schneider
HQ CAP Cadet Programs Coordinator
HQ CAP Knowledgebase Coordinator
U.S. Air Force Auxiliary
gocivilairpatrol.com
        ¬

CAP9907

While the above email from NHQ is wonderful, we do not hold our Members accountable to emails - we hold them accountable to manuals and regulations. NHQ is doing this organization a huge disservice by not publishing, open for all to see, this and other guidance.
21 yrs of service

Our Members Code of Conduct can be found here:   http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=13.0

Eclipse

Quote from: CAP9907 on March 24, 2018, 12:43:31 AM
While the above email from NHQ is wonderful, we do not hold our Members accountable to emails - we hold them accountable to manuals and regulations. NHQ is doing this organization a huge disservice by not publishing, open for all to see, this and other guidance.

+1, it seems like it's never going to learn this.  It's not like this was 40 years ago and you have to take
the updated pages to a print shop and then physically mail them to the field.

All the issues and foibles can be fixed in real time, yet they never are, leaving members to twist in the wind.

You only have to look here to see some of the heated arguments we have about nonsense to extrapolated that
to legitimate retention issues in the field.

"That Others May Zoom"

Jester

Maybe it's in the next iteration of 39-1 that NHQ is apparently having hand-chiseled onto tablets, and she's giving the guidance that's going to be in there so we can be ahead of the game. Probably not, but stranger things have happened.

This is a silly thing to get worked up over though. It's not like it's a Hello Kitty beanie or something.

TheSkyHornet

#15
Quote from: Hoodsie on March 23, 2018, 07:03:15 PM
Here's the official word I received from NHQ.  I don't necessarily agree as I think there should be some regulation or ICL that specifically calls it out but I guess I will "stop burning calories" on this.

The green fleece hat is authorized as a Cold Weather Accessory.  It is not specifically mentioned in the ICL or in the regulation.

I hope this helps~

Susan

Susan Schneider
HQ CAP Cadet Programs Coordinator
HQ CAP Knowledgebase Coordinator
U.S. Air Force Auxiliary
gocivilairpatrol.com
        ¬

Maybe an email reply is warranted, such as...

"Ma'am, do you think this would be best being distributed CAP-wide, such as an eServices bulletin?"

Spam

#16
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on March 25, 2018, 09:20:44 PM
Quote from: Hoodsie on March 23, 2018, 07:03:15 PM
Here's the official word I received from NHQ.  I don't necessarily agree as I think there should be some regulation or ICL that specifically calls it out but I guess I will "stop burning calories" on this.

The green fleece hat is authorized as a Cold Weather Accessory.  It is not specifically mentioned in the ICL or in the regulation.

I hope this helps~

Susan

Susan Schneider
HQ CAP Cadet Programs Coordinator
HQ CAP Knowledgebase Coordinator
U.S. Air Force Auxiliary
gocivilairpatrol.com
        ¬

Maybe an email reply is warranted, such as...

"Ma'am, do you think this would be best being distributed CAP-wide, such as an eServices bulletin?"


For the love of Spaatz... no. Don't ask her to push her personal opinion as directive. IT IS NOT. Because an NHQ "Coordinator" says so, does not make it so! That would be a horribly dangerous precedent.


How about, "Thanks for your feedback/opinion, Ms. Schneider. When we see this in an approved, signed ICL or regulation, then we can wear it per CAP regulations".


Perhaps the CAP Knowledgebase should be redesignated the "CAP Opinionbase"?


;)
Spam




Spam

Addendum:

The root problem is not with Ms. Schneider.
For the record, its with the NUC.
So, my above snarky comment aside, her honest attempt to address the problem is an effect, not the cause.

R/S
Spam


G+10


Spam

Quote from: G+10 on March 26, 2018, 03:47:42 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on March 21, 2018, 04:42:22 PM
All of the above is both true and not true

Schrödinger's hat

Augh... very bad/very nice.
Hat tip!

Vr
Spam