Insignia Oddity

[Storm Chaser]

This is what I am referring to...

There seems to be far too much space below the railroad tracks for the epaulettes for the shirt, even though the velcro ones were correct.

What's so difficult about following standards and doing some QC on their products? I've ordered multiple CAP insignias of the same type and gotten slight variations on each. That rarely ever happens when I buy Air Force insignias. And let's not forget that Vanguard's are more expensive.

[Robert Hartigan]

The font isn't even right!? I thought sole source was supposed to eliminate the variations? The grey slides have always looked like they are the size of USAF female epaulets slides.

[Storm Chaser]

Actually, I've ordered several of the Maj ones and they all vary in size from female to male and a size in between.

[JC004]

I had to give someone a set of Velcro Capt shoulder marks, and carefully re-shape them so they'd look OK - all because a recently-ordered aviator shirt's epaulets and the regular shoulder marks he ordered didn't work together.  The shoulder marks rode up the epaulet and looked ridiculous.  The bottom of the epaulet was too wide, and the shoulder mark not wide enough.

I feel like a simple solution to this would be to get out a ruler and decide what sizes they need to be, before sourcing them from the vendor.

[Storm Chaser]

That's easy. The Air Force has standards for all their insignias and uniform items. Unless it's a CAP-specific or CAP-only type of insignia, we should be using the Air Force standards. That would correct many of the discrepancies we see now.

[ProdigalJim]

That's easy. The Air Force has standards for all their insignias and uniform items. Unless it's a CAP-specific or CAP-only type of insignia, we should be using the Air Force standards. That would correct many of the discrepancies we see now.

Concur. I noticed the same inconsistency in a recent batch of shoulder marks I ordered from Big V. Somehow I feel as if I'm wearing female shoulder marks...as noted in the photo, the shape is different, the font is different and it's just overall different. One plus (and it's a minor plus) for the new batch is that in the previous batch before these "skinny" marks the captain's bars were embroidered with a "pucker." They were puckered all over underneath and just looked sloppy. This new batch isn't puckered, at least, but it looks wrong nonetheless and it's a different shade of gray besides.

For OCD grins, I downloaded and read the appropriate Mil Std -- MIL-DTL-14645. It's used for both Army and USAF, and it has all the appropriate requirements for threads, colors, weaves, construction, etc., plus a grading table to categorize whether certain kinds of faults are "Major" or "Minor." (From my reading of the tests, the new batch would probably flunk.)

If CAP would simply piggyback on this standard (since it's the same as our parent service uses) it would probably look a lot better. Oh and yes, they CAN standardize the gray. The MIL specs all incorporate the Color Association of America's Standard Color reference and its supplement, the U.S. Army Color Card. The Color Card shows the key shades of all the U.S. Armed Forces that are approved and accepted by the Quartermaster General.

So the request up the chain to the NUC and NHQ is pretty simple: adopt MIL-DTL-14645 and get Ma Blue to sign off on whatever shade of gray is in the Color Card that it can accept.

Let's face it: one of the U.S. Air Force's main beefs with us (to the extent that it has any) is that sometimes we look bad in *their* uniform. I can control things like being in height/weight, dry-cleaning my Service Dress jacket, pressing my shirts, wearing clean non-frayed ribbons and so forth...but if the CAP-unique badges and insignia look like clown costume pieces, there's zero I can do about it because we're limited to Vanguard. And Vanguard -- in their defense -- doesn't seem to have been provided anything more than a rudimentary standard. Because Vanguard is a supplier to the regular armed forces, presumably they already know how to manufacture items that meet the military standard and have appropriate equipment on-site to do so.

I have yet to buy a set of shoulder marks that I feel good about...

[bma21]

So I guess the new question for me is, does anyone have any extra captain shoulder marks I could buy so they actually look correct?

[ProdigalJim]

So I guess the new question for me is, does anyone have any extra captain shoulder marks I could buy so they actually look correct?

I'm happy to send you what I have [PM me and I'll send you a set], but I think the point we're all trying to make is that there's no telling what "actually looks correct" because Big V is so garfed up...

Here's an example. Three different orders, about two years apart, and three very different looks --



Shorter? Longer? Gray, grey or grrrey? How about gray stitching? Or white stitching? Too narrow for today's epaulettes? Narrow at the top and bigger at the bottom, or maybe straight at both ends? So many possibilities! 

[SarDragon]

FTFY.

Oh, never mind.

[arajca]

And Vanguard -- in their defense -- doesn't seem to have been provided anything more than a rudimentary standard. Because Vanguard is a supplier to the regular armed forces, presumably they already know how to manufacture items that meet the military standard and have appropriate equipment on-site to do so.

How hard is it to be given a sample and told "This is what they look like. Make yours match."? I would presume when the Bookstore closed, all the existing stock went to Vanguard, so they should have had proper samples.

[JC004]

Guess what happened when I got a Gore-Tex tab wet (you know, the insignia for the wet weather clothing...)

If I were them, for one thing, I'd request material samples from prospective vendors first...

And Vanguard -- in their defense -- doesn't seem to have been provided anything more than a rudimentary standard. Because Vanguard is a supplier to the regular armed forces, presumably they already know how to manufacture items that meet the military standard and have appropriate equipment on-site to do so.

How hard is it to be given a sample and told "This is what they look like. Make yours match."? I would presume when the Bookstore closed, all the existing stock went to Vanguard, so they should have had proper samples.

That's what happened during the transition.  The Bookstore's insignia was not always the best, however. 

One example of random changes is GT-type badges:

[Storm Chaser]

And Vanguard -- in their defense -- doesn't seem to have been provided anything more than a rudimentary standard. Because Vanguard is a supplier to the regular armed forces, presumably they already know how to manufacture items that meet the military standard and have appropriate equipment on-site to do so.

How hard is it to be given a sample and told "This is what they look like. Make yours match."? I would presume when the Bookstore closed, all the existing stock went to Vanguard, so they should have had proper samples.

Not only that, but they also sell Air Force insignias which could be used as the basis for their CAP counterparts.

[Storm Chaser]

Guess what happened when I got a Gore-Tex tab wet (you know, the insignia for the wet weather clothing...)

If I were them, for one thing, I'd request material samples from prospective vendors first...

And Vanguard -- in their defense -- doesn't seem to have been provided anything more than a rudimentary standard. Because Vanguard is a supplier to the regular armed forces, presumably they already know how to manufacture items that meet the military standard and have appropriate equipment on-site to do so.

How hard is it to be given a sample and told "This is what they look like. Make yours match."? I would presume when the Bookstore closed, all the existing stock went to Vanguard, so they should have had proper samples.

That's what happened during the transition.  The Bookstore's insignia was not always the best, however. 

One example of random changes is GT-type badges:

I've noticed the same inconsistencies. One thing is to get the design wrong and another is to be inconsistent with the design. A ground team badge should look the same whether you buy one today or six months from now.

[JC004]

The size changes have caused problems for me in sewing insignia on people's uniforms because it leaves marks or changes the placement. 

[TheSkyHornet]

That's easy. The Air Force has standards for all their insignias and uniform items. Unless it's a CAP-specific or CAP-only type of insignia, we should be using the Air Force standards. That would correct many of the discrepancies we see now.

What do you expect from an organization that not only doesn't supply you with the uniforms you "need," but doesn't even allow you to directly purchase through them?

[Alaric]

That's easy. The Air Force has standards for all their insignias and uniform items. Unless it's a CAP-specific or CAP-only type of insignia, we should be using the Air Force standards. That would correct many of the discrepancies we see now.

What do you expect from an organization that not only doesn't supply you with the uniforms you "need," but doesn't even allow you to directly purchase through them?

Perhaps when someone wears their poor quality insignia, and gets their picture published, someone will take Vanguard to task, but I'm not holding my breath.  After all, Vanguard kicks back some of the money to us, so that makes it worthwhile

[Ned]

What do you expect from an organization that not only doesn't supply you with the uniforms you "need," but doesn't even allow you to directly purchase through them?

We'd be happy to supply you with the required uniforms as part of your membership packet, and replace them thereafter upon request.

You're OK with dues of $400 a year, right?

And even when CAP sold the insignia directly through CAPMART and the Bookstore, you know that we just bought the insignia from VG (and a few other vendors), marked it up a little, and then sold it to members?  It's not like we used cadets producing the insignia in encampment sweatshops.

[Alaric]

What do you expect from an organization that not only doesn't supply you with the uniforms you "need," but doesn't even allow you to directly purchase through them?

We'd be happy to supply you with the required uniforms as part of your membership packet, and replace them thereafter upon request.

You're OK with dues of $400 a year, right?

And even when CAP sold the insignia directly through CAPMART and the Bookstore, you know that we just bought the insignia from VG (and a few other vendors), marked it up a little, and then sold it to members?  It's not like we used cadets producing the insignia in encampment sweatshops.

The picture of encampment sweatshops, priceless

If there were an initial cost that would include an initial uniform supply, I'd be okay with that as long as the quality was good and consistent.

[TheSkyHornet]

What do you expect from an organization that not only doesn't supply you with the uniforms you "need," but doesn't even allow you to directly purchase through them?

We'd be happy to supply you with the required uniforms as part of your membership packet, and replace them thereafter upon request.

You're OK with dues of $400 a year, right?

Between membership dues and regular costs for uniform items, that doesn't seem to be too far off.

The convenience would be higher, and new members wouldn't be forced to search for it themselves and then end up with the wrong stuff. That's excessively common, especially with cadets. Tiger stripes, male uniforms purchased by females, wrong belt, etc. Sure, squadrons can make it easier, but that doesn't mean it's going to happen across the board in all squadrons.

If there were an initial cost that would include an initial uniform supply, I'd be okay with that as long as the quality was good and consistent.

This. Get it out of the way up front, and get all of your stuff in one swoop, or purchase as-necessary through the squadron with a pre-packaged list of supplies and the squadron can go through CAP to get the correct items.

I don't agree with the immediate reaction of "It doesn't work!"

[Al Sayre]

What do you expect from an organization that not only doesn't supply you with the uniforms you "need," but doesn't even allow you to directly purchase through them?

We'd be happy to supply you with the required uniforms as part of your membership packet, and replace them thereafter upon request.

You're OK with dues of $400 a year, right?

And even when CAP sold the insignia directly through CAPMART and the Bookstore, you know that we just bought the insignia from VG (and a few other vendors), marked it up a little, and then sold it to members?  It's not like we used cadets producing the insignia in encampment sweatshops.

See, there you go! Apprentice-ship & job training for cadets...