Insignia Oddity

[bma21]

Is it just me or do the rank epaulettes from Vanguard look different all of a sudden?  It is as if the insignia and the CAP are crammed together in the middle of the epaulettes rather on the top and bottom like they used to be?

[JC004]

Consistency seems not to be one of their strengths.  Do you have a photo of what you're talking about? 

I have noticed recent embroidery appearing bunched up under the insignia - especially on bars - 2d Lt, 1st Lt, Capt....  I'm having an issue flattening out some cloth insignia for a Capt before I sew his.  Same goes for fairly recent epaulets I've seen.

They do seem to change their vendors a lot.  I wish they could get insignia color, design, and quality consistent.   It doesn't seem like too much to ask to have your insignia match... 

[AirAux]

I do not like their CAP Strips and name strips for utility uniforms.  The material is thin and cheap looking.  I am worried about the durability in the long run.

[PHall]

I do not like their CAP Strips and name strips for utility uniforms.  The material is thin and cheap looking.  I am worried about the durability in the long run.

What is a CAP strip and a name strip?     Could you be talking about CAP tapes and Name Tapes?

[Гугл переводчик]

I actually just ordered name tapes and CAP tapes from vangard, and they used different shades of blue and different thickness of lettering on them... my OCD doesn't like this

[NC Hokie]

I actually just ordered name tapes and CAP tapes from vangard, and they used different shades of blue and different thickness of lettering on them... my OCD doesn't like this

Thanks, now I can never not see that they did the same thing for a set I ordered for one of my new cadets!  The shades are close enough in this case to not be an issue, but it looks like they used a bold version of the font from the CAP tape on the name tape.

[RogueLeader]

I actually just ordered name tapes and CAP tapes from vangard, and they used different shades of blue and different thickness of lettering on them... my OCD doesn't like this

Even the army uses different lettering, depending on how many characters are in the name.  I don't recall what the cutoffs were/are.

[xray328]

There's a seller on eBay that's doing something like that too.  They try to make whatever's on the tape the same length so the 14 letters in Civil Air Patrol and the 9 letters in my last name take up the same space.  It looks goofy because the name tape letters end up being much wider than the CAP side.  It bugs me too.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/261149274662?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&var=560176735257&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Seller is quick to get them to you, 2 days in my case but I'll have to clarify what I need next time around.

[TheSkyHornet]

Unfortunate quality control from the contractor side.

The letters should be embroidered in at the same size if both the CAP tape and Name tape lettering fits under normal format, with the extra tape still showing so everything appears standard.

A lot of people/companies who make name tapes don't know that different branches may have different sizes, too. So, they just make a standard size for all and then you line a bunch of CAP people up in BDUs and the tapes don't match from person-to-person.

The moment an organization starts saying "You can order them for yourself online at..." you know uniformity will slip a bit.

[Alaric]

Consistency seems not to be one of their strengths.  Do you have a photo of what you're talking about? 

I have noticed recent embroidery appearing bunched up under the insignia - especially on bars - 2d Lt, 1st Lt, Capt....  I'm having an issue flattening out some cloth insignia for a Capt before I sew his.  Same goes for fairly recent epaulets I've seen.

They do seem to change their vendors a lot.  I wish they could get insignia color, design, and quality consistent.   It doesn't seem like too much to ask to have your insignia match...

Why would they concern themselves with quality?  After all, with the exception of name Tapes, they have a monopoly on most other uniform items.  Monopolies do not concern themselves with quality as the demand curve does not respond to changes in quality

[TheSkyHornet]

Consistency seems not to be one of their strengths.  Do you have a photo of what you're talking about? 

I have noticed recent embroidery appearing bunched up under the insignia - especially on bars - 2d Lt, 1st Lt, Capt....  I'm having an issue flattening out some cloth insignia for a Capt before I sew his.  Same goes for fairly recent epaulets I've seen.

They do seem to change their vendors a lot.  I wish they could get insignia color, design, and quality consistent.   It doesn't seem like too much to ask to have your insignia match...

Why would they concern themselves with quality?  After all, with the exception of name Tapes, they have a monopoly on most other uniform items.  Monopolies do not concern themselves with quality as the demand curve does not respond to changes in quality

Very, very true.

[PHall]

CAP Branch and Name tapes are available through AAFES at Military Clothing Sales.
I've had zero problems with their quality and workmanship.

[bma21]

Consistency seems not to be one of their strengths.  Do you have a photo of what you're talking about? 

I have noticed recent embroidery appearing bunched up under the insignia - especially on bars - 2d Lt, 1st Lt, Capt....  I'm having an issue flattening out some cloth insignia for a Capt before I sew his.  Same goes for fairly recent epaulets I've seen.

They do seem to change their vendors a lot.  I wish they could get insignia color, design, and quality consistent.   It doesn't seem like too much to ask to have your insignia match...

I do not seem to be able to add an image or attachment of it unfortunately.  I have a picture I just can't post them because I cannot find an option to allow it.

[SarDragon]

There's a post minimum before you can do pictures.

[JC004]

Try http://imgur.com/

The attachments tool is mostly for documents. 

[bma21]

This is what I am referring to...

There seems to be far too much space below the railroad tracks for the epaulettes for the shirt, even though the velcro ones were correct.

[SARDOC]

^ Yeah..the one on the right is totally wrong.

[PHall]

Yeah, only General Officers have to "center" their grade insignia on their epaulets.

[MisterCD]

The narrower sleeves are made to the USAF specs (which I was told direct from the company if people are wondering). CAP never provided the exact particulars for the epaulet sleeves, such as exact fabrics, shades, dimensions, etc. leaving the company to opt to base the design off the USAF epaulets.

While these new epaulets fit on the shirt, they do not fit on the service coat, at least not cleanly. This was not accounted for in the initial order, which based on the posts I presume has not been sold out yet.

[JC004]

They made them sized more to AF style, but apparently didn't consider we have uses for them that they don't.  They also apparently didn't check aviator shirt epaulet sizes. 

Those are wrong.  See AF style:


Tell them, so they can speak to the vendor.

[Storm Chaser]

This is what I am referring to...

There seems to be far too much space below the railroad tracks for the epaulettes for the shirt, even though the velcro ones were correct.

What's so difficult about following standards and doing some QC on their products? I've ordered multiple CAP insignias of the same type and gotten slight variations on each. That rarely ever happens when I buy Air Force insignias. And let's not forget that Vanguard's are more expensive.

[Robert Hartigan]

The font isn't even right!? I thought sole source was supposed to eliminate the variations? The grey slides have always looked like they are the size of USAF female epaulets slides.

[Storm Chaser]

Actually, I've ordered several of the Maj ones and they all vary in size from female to male and a size in between.

[JC004]

I had to give someone a set of Velcro Capt shoulder marks, and carefully re-shape them so they'd look OK - all because a recently-ordered aviator shirt's epaulets and the regular shoulder marks he ordered didn't work together.  The shoulder marks rode up the epaulet and looked ridiculous.  The bottom of the epaulet was too wide, and the shoulder mark not wide enough.

I feel like a simple solution to this would be to get out a ruler and decide what sizes they need to be, before sourcing them from the vendor.

[Storm Chaser]

That's easy. The Air Force has standards for all their insignias and uniform items. Unless it's a CAP-specific or CAP-only type of insignia, we should be using the Air Force standards. That would correct many of the discrepancies we see now.

[ProdigalJim]

That's easy. The Air Force has standards for all their insignias and uniform items. Unless it's a CAP-specific or CAP-only type of insignia, we should be using the Air Force standards. That would correct many of the discrepancies we see now.

Concur. I noticed the same inconsistency in a recent batch of shoulder marks I ordered from Big V. Somehow I feel as if I'm wearing female shoulder marks...as noted in the photo, the shape is different, the font is different and it's just overall different. One plus (and it's a minor plus) for the new batch is that in the previous batch before these "skinny" marks the captain's bars were embroidered with a "pucker." They were puckered all over underneath and just looked sloppy. This new batch isn't puckered, at least, but it looks wrong nonetheless and it's a different shade of gray besides.

For OCD grins, I downloaded and read the appropriate Mil Std -- MIL-DTL-14645. It's used for both Army and USAF, and it has all the appropriate requirements for threads, colors, weaves, construction, etc., plus a grading table to categorize whether certain kinds of faults are "Major" or "Minor." (From my reading of the tests, the new batch would probably flunk.)

If CAP would simply piggyback on this standard (since it's the same as our parent service uses) it would probably look a lot better. Oh and yes, they CAN standardize the gray. The MIL specs all incorporate the Color Association of America's Standard Color reference and its supplement, the U.S. Army Color Card. The Color Card shows the key shades of all the U.S. Armed Forces that are approved and accepted by the Quartermaster General.

So the request up the chain to the NUC and NHQ is pretty simple: adopt MIL-DTL-14645 and get Ma Blue to sign off on whatever shade of gray is in the Color Card that it can accept.

Let's face it: one of the U.S. Air Force's main beefs with us (to the extent that it has any) is that sometimes we look bad in *their* uniform. I can control things like being in height/weight, dry-cleaning my Service Dress jacket, pressing my shirts, wearing clean non-frayed ribbons and so forth...but if the CAP-unique badges and insignia look like clown costume pieces, there's zero I can do about it because we're limited to Vanguard. And Vanguard -- in their defense -- doesn't seem to have been provided anything more than a rudimentary standard. Because Vanguard is a supplier to the regular armed forces, presumably they already know how to manufacture items that meet the military standard and have appropriate equipment on-site to do so.

I have yet to buy a set of shoulder marks that I feel good about...

[bma21]

So I guess the new question for me is, does anyone have any extra captain shoulder marks I could buy so they actually look correct?

[ProdigalJim]

So I guess the new question for me is, does anyone have any extra captain shoulder marks I could buy so they actually look correct?

I'm happy to send you what I have [PM me and I'll send you a set], but I think the point we're all trying to make is that there's no telling what "actually looks correct" because Big V is so garfed up...

Here's an example. Three different orders, about two years apart, and three very different looks --



Shorter? Longer? Gray, grey or grrrey? How about gray stitching? Or white stitching? Too narrow for today's epaulettes? Narrow at the top and bigger at the bottom, or maybe straight at both ends? So many possibilities! 

[SarDragon]

FTFY.

Oh, never mind.

[arajca]

And Vanguard -- in their defense -- doesn't seem to have been provided anything more than a rudimentary standard. Because Vanguard is a supplier to the regular armed forces, presumably they already know how to manufacture items that meet the military standard and have appropriate equipment on-site to do so.

How hard is it to be given a sample and told "This is what they look like. Make yours match."? I would presume when the Bookstore closed, all the existing stock went to Vanguard, so they should have had proper samples.

[JC004]

Guess what happened when I got a Gore-Tex tab wet (you know, the insignia for the wet weather clothing...)

If I were them, for one thing, I'd request material samples from prospective vendors first...

And Vanguard -- in their defense -- doesn't seem to have been provided anything more than a rudimentary standard. Because Vanguard is a supplier to the regular armed forces, presumably they already know how to manufacture items that meet the military standard and have appropriate equipment on-site to do so.

How hard is it to be given a sample and told "This is what they look like. Make yours match."? I would presume when the Bookstore closed, all the existing stock went to Vanguard, so they should have had proper samples.

That's what happened during the transition.  The Bookstore's insignia was not always the best, however. 

One example of random changes is GT-type badges:

[Storm Chaser]

And Vanguard -- in their defense -- doesn't seem to have been provided anything more than a rudimentary standard. Because Vanguard is a supplier to the regular armed forces, presumably they already know how to manufacture items that meet the military standard and have appropriate equipment on-site to do so.

How hard is it to be given a sample and told "This is what they look like. Make yours match."? I would presume when the Bookstore closed, all the existing stock went to Vanguard, so they should have had proper samples.

Not only that, but they also sell Air Force insignias which could be used as the basis for their CAP counterparts.

[Storm Chaser]

Guess what happened when I got a Gore-Tex tab wet (you know, the insignia for the wet weather clothing...)

If I were them, for one thing, I'd request material samples from prospective vendors first...

And Vanguard -- in their defense -- doesn't seem to have been provided anything more than a rudimentary standard. Because Vanguard is a supplier to the regular armed forces, presumably they already know how to manufacture items that meet the military standard and have appropriate equipment on-site to do so.

How hard is it to be given a sample and told "This is what they look like. Make yours match."? I would presume when the Bookstore closed, all the existing stock went to Vanguard, so they should have had proper samples.

That's what happened during the transition.  The Bookstore's insignia was not always the best, however. 

One example of random changes is GT-type badges:

I've noticed the same inconsistencies. One thing is to get the design wrong and another is to be inconsistent with the design. A ground team badge should look the same whether you buy one today or six months from now.

[JC004]

The size changes have caused problems for me in sewing insignia on people's uniforms because it leaves marks or changes the placement. 

[TheSkyHornet]

That's easy. The Air Force has standards for all their insignias and uniform items. Unless it's a CAP-specific or CAP-only type of insignia, we should be using the Air Force standards. That would correct many of the discrepancies we see now.

What do you expect from an organization that not only doesn't supply you with the uniforms you "need," but doesn't even allow you to directly purchase through them?

[Alaric]

That's easy. The Air Force has standards for all their insignias and uniform items. Unless it's a CAP-specific or CAP-only type of insignia, we should be using the Air Force standards. That would correct many of the discrepancies we see now.

What do you expect from an organization that not only doesn't supply you with the uniforms you "need," but doesn't even allow you to directly purchase through them?

Perhaps when someone wears their poor quality insignia, and gets their picture published, someone will take Vanguard to task, but I'm not holding my breath.  After all, Vanguard kicks back some of the money to us, so that makes it worthwhile

[Ned]

What do you expect from an organization that not only doesn't supply you with the uniforms you "need," but doesn't even allow you to directly purchase through them?

We'd be happy to supply you with the required uniforms as part of your membership packet, and replace them thereafter upon request.

You're OK with dues of $400 a year, right?

And even when CAP sold the insignia directly through CAPMART and the Bookstore, you know that we just bought the insignia from VG (and a few other vendors), marked it up a little, and then sold it to members?  It's not like we used cadets producing the insignia in encampment sweatshops.

[Alaric]

What do you expect from an organization that not only doesn't supply you with the uniforms you "need," but doesn't even allow you to directly purchase through them?

We'd be happy to supply you with the required uniforms as part of your membership packet, and replace them thereafter upon request.

You're OK with dues of $400 a year, right?

And even when CAP sold the insignia directly through CAPMART and the Bookstore, you know that we just bought the insignia from VG (and a few other vendors), marked it up a little, and then sold it to members?  It's not like we used cadets producing the insignia in encampment sweatshops.

The picture of encampment sweatshops, priceless

If there were an initial cost that would include an initial uniform supply, I'd be okay with that as long as the quality was good and consistent.

[TheSkyHornet]

What do you expect from an organization that not only doesn't supply you with the uniforms you "need," but doesn't even allow you to directly purchase through them?

We'd be happy to supply you with the required uniforms as part of your membership packet, and replace them thereafter upon request.

You're OK with dues of $400 a year, right?

Between membership dues and regular costs for uniform items, that doesn't seem to be too far off.

The convenience would be higher, and new members wouldn't be forced to search for it themselves and then end up with the wrong stuff. That's excessively common, especially with cadets. Tiger stripes, male uniforms purchased by females, wrong belt, etc. Sure, squadrons can make it easier, but that doesn't mean it's going to happen across the board in all squadrons.

If there were an initial cost that would include an initial uniform supply, I'd be okay with that as long as the quality was good and consistent.

This. Get it out of the way up front, and get all of your stuff in one swoop, or purchase as-necessary through the squadron with a pre-packaged list of supplies and the squadron can go through CAP to get the correct items.

I don't agree with the immediate reaction of "It doesn't work!"

[Al Sayre]

What do you expect from an organization that not only doesn't supply you with the uniforms you "need," but doesn't even allow you to directly purchase through them?

We'd be happy to supply you with the required uniforms as part of your membership packet, and replace them thereafter upon request.

You're OK with dues of $400 a year, right?

And even when CAP sold the insignia directly through CAPMART and the Bookstore, you know that we just bought the insignia from VG (and a few other vendors), marked it up a little, and then sold it to members?  It's not like we used cadets producing the insignia in encampment sweatshops.

See, there you go! Apprentice-ship & job training for cadets...

[LSThiker]

What do you expect from an organization that not only doesn't supply you with the uniforms you "need," but doesn't even allow you to directly purchase through them?

We'd be happy to supply you with the required uniforms as part of your membership packet, and replace them thereafter upon request.

You're OK with dues of $400 a year, right?

And even when CAP sold the insignia directly through CAPMART and the Bookstore, you know that we just bought the insignia from VG (and a few other vendors), marked it up a little, and then sold it to members?  It's not like we used cadets producing the insignia in encampment sweatshops.

See, there you go! Apprentice-ship & job training for cadets...

It is a new NCSA for career orientation in the Quartermaster Corps and the MOS 92S (Army Fabric Repair Specialist).   

[ProdigalJim]

Given that we spend a bunch of money up front on our own for these kinds of things anyway, it might not be a bad idea to charge a first-year/first-membership fee that includes a single uniform issue. I realize Ned was posting somewhat in jest, but there's a kernel of an idea in there that might be worth thinking about.

Even so, this obscures the larger point that several posters on this thread have been trying to make, namely: Vanguard, while well-meaning and operating under constraints CAP has set for them, nonetheless doesn't seem able to produce insignia of a consistent quality and this makes us literally look bad. Given that the USAF doesn't like it when we look bad, I don't think it's unreasonable for the members to ask whether something can be done to improve the situation.

I've offered a suggestion that is, I think, reasonable and workable (i.e., adopt the MIL-DTL-14645 standard that Vanguard undoubtedly already uses for its USAF work, given that the Institute of Heraldry lists Vanguard as an approved insignia manufacturer). There may be other suggestions that are equally reasonable and workable. I don't claim to have a monopoly on The Best Idea. But I think the topic is worth discussing, and I think as members we ought to have a mechanism for making our desires known. Complaining isn't enough...I've complained to Vanguard as have other members, and their customer service folks have been, to a person, diligent, friendly and worked hard to make me feel better. But I still had to wait nearly five months to get leather name patches that would work on my flight jacket, and I'm still waiting (see the pictures earlier in this thread) for shoulder marks that look the same and fit on the shirt. The GT badges James posted tell a similar story. I have some that I simply won't wear because they look unprofessional.

Individual ad hoc complaints don't seem to be adding up to a real effort to address the persistent problems of quality and consistency, and if we're going to get beaten up for looking bad in uniform, we ought to have a way to pull some levers to fix the insignia-quality problem.

[bma21]

Seems we have more of an answer to what is going on...

Please accept my apologies for not getting back to you sooner concerning the problems with your Captain Epaulets.
 
Thank you for your suggestions concerning the epaulets. We are in the process of re-specking all the CAP epaulets. We thought we had the problem corrected but, it is very clear that we do not.
 
Myself, Vanguard's General Manager John McClain, Susie Parker, and Col Richard Griffith are meeting at the National conference next week to address the issue. We hope to get authorized sizing and fabric color.
 
Once the epaulets are re-made to National's approval we will send you a replacement pair of Captain epaulets. Until then what you received is what was previously agreed on between Vanguard and Civil Air Patrol.
 
Please contact me if  you have further questions or concerns.
 

[SAREXinNY]

bma21, I'm very confused.  You say that you are in the process of re-specking the epaulets.  You then say that you thought "we had the problem corrected but, it is very clear that we do not."  And then you go on to say "what you received is what was previously agreed on between Vanguard and Civil Air Patrol."

I don't think you can have it both ways.  Was it a problem that you thought you corrected but hadn't, or was it a design that was agreed upon by all parties?

Unfortunately I ordered THREE sets of these epaulets which arrived a couple of weeks ago...and all three sets have the Capt bars centered. It looks ridiculous and completely out-of-whack with every other set of epaulets for other grades.  Normally I wouldn't care too much but I have RSC coming up, I was recently promoted, and I don't have any other Captains in my squadron to borrow from while I'm gone.  I sent Vanguard customer service an email five days ago asking for clarification (i.e. can I get corrected replacement(s)) and haven't received a reply back.

[TheSkyHornet]

bma21, I'm very confused.  You say that you are in the process of re-specking the epaulets.  You then say that you thought "we had the problem corrected but, it is very clear that we do not."  And then you go on to say "what you received is what was previously agreed on between Vanguard and Civil Air Patrol."

I don't think you can have it both ways.  Was it a problem that you thought you corrected but hadn't, or was it a design that was agreed upon by all parties?

Unfortunately I ordered THREE sets of these epaulets which arrived a couple of weeks ago...and all three sets have the Capt bars centered. It looks ridiculous and completely out-of-whack with every other set of epaulets for other grades.  Normally I wouldn't care too much but I have RSC coming up, I was recently promoted, and I don't have any other Captains in my squadron to borrow from while I'm gone.  I sent Vanguard customer service an email five days ago asking for clarification (i.e. can I get corrected replacement(s)) and haven't received a reply back.

Anyone who was once a Captain that you can borrow from?
Although, I'm assuming you probably already thought of that.

I just ordered my Blues and accessories on Vanguard. I have a PD weekend coming up in October and I want to try to get everything sorted well in advance. I almost just settled for the polo/slacks, but didn't feel like getting yet another uniform I didn't need and didn't want to have just to save time. They just shipped out this morning, and my nerves are racking based on what I've heard. I'm really not a fan of not being able to see something in-person when I buy it or try it on knowing that there's a record of discrepancies with consistency.

Really hoping I don't end up having to attend in civies like a pud.

[Flying Pig]

I still have my fathers AF Blue CAP Captain epaulets from back in the early 90s.  They are very high quality and to this day, look nice.  Very sad to see the decline. 

[bma21]

bma21, I'm very confused.  You say that you are in the process of re-specking the epaulets.  You then say that you thought "we had the problem corrected but, it is very clear that we do not."  And then you go on to say "what you received is what was previously agreed on between Vanguard and Civil Air Patrol."

I don't think you can have it both ways.  Was it a problem that you thought you corrected but hadn't, or was it a design that was agreed upon by all parties?

Unfortunately I ordered THREE sets of these epaulets which arrived a couple of weeks ago...and all three sets have the Capt bars centered. It looks ridiculous and completely out-of-whack with every other set of epaulets for other grades.  Normally I wouldn't care too much but I have RSC coming up, I was recently promoted, and I don't have any other Captains in my squadron to borrow from while I'm gone.  I sent Vanguard customer service an email five days ago asking for clarification (i.e. can I get corrected replacement(s)) and haven't received a reply back.

I am sorry I confused you.  I do not actually work for Vanguard.  I had emailed them and I posted the reply they gave me.  They are in the process of respecking the epaulettes.  I have also not heard anything further on this from them other than the reply I posted.  If I do I will add here.

[Storm Chaser]

There's no way the "defective" epaulet design is "what was previously agreed on between Vanguard and Civil Air Patrol." Vanguard has been supplying CAP epaulets for years. Any changes in design or quality is on them. How come they have no issues with similar Air Force insignias and uniform items they supply?

[Ned]

Well, one reason is that we can't simply use the AF specs for our epaulette sleeves because ours have to fit on the service coat epaulettes, which are wider than the shirt.  Obviously the quality and embroidery should be as good, but it's not as simple as "just use the AF specs."

But we all agree on the need for high quality, professional appearing insignia at a reasonable cost.

Ned Lee

[Capt Thompson]

Maybe now that we're a part of the Total Force, we can have the same quality as the rest of the force?

I have grey 1st Lt's from the early 2000's, and 2 new pairs I bought from VG when I returned in January, and I wear the old set because despite being slightly faded, they look 100% better. I'm currently searching eBay for older sets of Capt so I can have them when I'm eligible, I've seen recent VG Capt's and they look just as bad as my 1st Lt's.

Sad to say, but I have items from The Hock that look better than ones I purchased recently from VG.

[SAREXinNY]

My apologies to bma21 for assuming he worked for the big-V.

I still haven't received a reply from Vanguard from my email two weeks ago asking them about corrected replacements, reimbursements, refunds, etc. for the three Capt epaulets I received, so tonight I disputed the charge with my credit card company.  Although I'm sure they don't care much, I hope they get the point.  I refuse to pay for epaulets that I can't even use.

[LSThiker]

My apologies to bma21 for assuming he worked for the big-V.

I still haven't received a reply from Vanguard from my email two weeks ago asking them about corrected replacements, reimbursements, refunds, etc. for the three Capt epaulets I received, so tonight I disputed the charge with my credit card company.  Although I'm sure they don't care much, I hope they get the point.  I refuse to pay for epaulets that I can't even use.

You do realize that the General Manager for Vanguard East and Rita, Vanguard's CAP coordinator, were out of the office for the last week at the National Conference?  Perhaps another a follow-up email would be beneficial now that they have return.