New Montana Wing Patch

[SarDragon]

Designs have to be approved by TIOH, yes... but TIOH nor the Army require a Regiment to purchase from a single source vendor like Vanguard.

In this case, I would point out the US Air Force requires all USAF personnel purchase uniform items from their in-house vendor: AAFES (AFI 36-2903, para 1.5.1).  How that is exercised is not always all encompassing (service coats are limited to AAFES [at least I've never seen them made available easily from another vendor] but ribbons can come from about anyone).   

And so while the USAF may not require all items to be sourced through AAFES in practice, the principle holds that they do expect purchases for the majority of the core items to come from AAFES.  Seems like CAP is doing the same thing the USAF does through an in-house vendor, just that NHQ has chosen to draw a fairly narrow circle around some items (like insignia) and less around others (like blazers and aviator shirts). 

It would seem reasonable that the cost is about $215 ($2.15*100 say) that it might cost to by out CAP's in house vendor.   Optionally, the Wing could just tell Vanguard not to make anymore and then put the new patches in after the stock is expired.  Either way, an in house vendor is a well established practice in the DOD.

Not exactly.

AAFES is a distributor, not a primary vendor. They have contracts with various manufacturers to provide various uniform items, Vanguard being one for insignia and accessories.

[MSG Mac]

Designs have to be approved by TIOH, yes... but TIOH nor the Army require a Regiment to purchase from a single source vendor like Vanguard.

In this case, I would point out the US Air Force requires all USAF personnel purchase uniform items from their in-house vendor: AAFES (AFI 36-2903, para 1.5.1).  How that is exercised is not always all encompassing (service coats are limited to AAFES [at least I've never seen them made available easily from another vendor] but ribbons can come from about anyone).   

And so while the USAF may not require all items to be sourced through AAFES in practice, the principle holds that they do expect purchases for the majority of the core items to come from AAFES.  Seems like CAP is doing the same thing the USAF does through an in-house vendor, just that NHQ has chosen to draw a fairly narrow circle around some items (like insignia) and less around others (like blazers and aviator shirts). 

It would seem reasonable that the cost is about $215 ($2.15*100 say) that it might cost to by out CAP's in house vendor.   Optionally, the Wing could just tell Vanguard not to make anymore and then put the new patches in after the stock is expired.  Either way, an in house vendor is a well established practice in the DOD. 

While AAFES to include (MCCS)is the primary source for uniform items, members of the armed services can buy uniforms and insignia from other sources as long as they meet the services standards. These uniforms would be required to have a label certifying that the item meets that standard.

[AlphaSigOU]

While AAFES to include (MCCS)is the primary source for uniform items, members of the armed services can buy uniforms and insignia from other sources as long as they meet the services standards. These uniforms would be required to have a label certifying that the item meets that standard.

Marlow White (http://www.marlowwhite.com/) manufactures dress uniforms for the Army and Navy (but not for the Air Force()) and first responders to military specifications. Kel-Lac Uniforms of San Antonio, Texas used to offer a double-knit polyester version of the Air Force service dress uniform some years ago but no longer does so - the AF discontinued their use around 2006. (They have plenty of ABU and Multi-cam stuff, though.)

[JeffDG]

the impact on the wing membership in terms of cost and identity.

The "identity" nonsense regarding wings is more detrimental then positive to the organization.

In many respects there are 52 Civil Air Patrols instead of the "one" that's purported in the brochures.
And I'm not referring to the odd uniform supp, we're talking about 52 different flavors of doing the same
job, which forces everyone to relearn everything (after the initial fighting) for just about every activity and mission.

Bob, it's pretty much that way in the Air National Guard too.  Each TAG has "their" way of doing stuff.
So it's not just a CAP "problem".

I've seen no actual evidence that it's a "problem" at all.

Multiple groups doing similar jobs in similar, but not identical, ways is a great way to find best practices.  Push down one way of doing things from the top and you end up with mediocrity at best.

[Private Investigator]

Vanguard has been very good to work with during this process.  They stopped making the old patch a few months ago.  What ever inventory is left will be purchased by the wing. 

And yes I am the new "Wing King". 

The Wing has supported this idea from the get go.  We are excited for the change.

Excited, how awesome. In the corporate world we get excited with change. I guess that could work in CAP too.

But, if we changing just to be changing what is the purpose? In management, in the corporate world we do stuff like that to remind people who is in charge. In the military world it is different. History, tradition, etc, etc. The traditional MTWG with the outline of the state reminds people of "1941", "CAP", "the humble beginnings", "etc", "etc".

Good luck sir.   

[Private Investigator]

The decision to revise the MTWG patch was discussed at length by the NUC and, as Col Teel noted, was instigated by MTWG and not NHQ. Generally speaking, there is a strong reluctance by NHQ and the NUC to change the wing and region insignia. Two wings, including MTWG, approached the NUC about changing their design. In both cases the rationale, cost, design, heraldic and historical aspects were discussed, not to mention the impact on the wing membership in terms of cost and identity. Col Teel has reached out to the National History Program for advice and guidance, and the wing's handling of this matter has been both professional and thorough.

Thank you for sharing the additional information.

[lordmonar]

Vanguard has been very good to work with during this process.  They stopped making the old patch a few months ago.  What ever inventory is left will be purchased by the wing. 

And yes I am the new "Wing King". 

The Wing has supported this idea from the get go.  We are excited for the change.

Excited, how awesome. In the corporate world we get excited with change. I guess that could work in CAP too.

But, if we changing just to be changing what is the purpose? In management, in the corporate world we do stuff like that to remind people who is in charge. In the military world it is different. History, tradition, etc, etc. The traditional MTWG with the outline of the state reminds people of "1941", "CAP", "the humble beginnings", "etc", "etc".

Good luck sir.

Do you remember Gen Mc Peak.....and his ideal of preserving history, tradition, etc?  The "real military" is just as bad as the corporate world.

[ColonelJack]

Vanguard has been very good to work with during this process.  They stopped making the old patch a few months ago.  What ever inventory is left will be purchased by the wing. 

And yes I am the new "Wing King". 

The Wing has supported this idea from the get go.  We are excited for the change.

Excited, how awesome. In the corporate world we get excited with change. I guess that could work in CAP too.

But, if we changing just to be changing what is the purpose? In management, in the corporate world we do stuff like that to remind people who is in charge. In the military world it is different. History, tradition, etc, etc. The traditional MTWG with the outline of the state reminds people of "1941", "CAP", "the humble beginnings", "etc", "etc".

Good luck sir.

Do you remember Gen Mc Peak.....and his ideal of preserving history, tradition, etc?  The "real military" is just as bad as the corporate world.

Pat, do you mean Gen. McPeak's ideas of throwing everything out the window in favor of the new uniform he wanted?  The one with the sleeve stripes, no U.S. cutouts, and - in the beginning, anyway - no headgear at all?

That Gen. McPeak?

Never heard of him.   

Jack

[lordmonar]

I was thinking more of how units with "significant" history were more important than other units and they made 20-30 units change their names.   But yes that guy

[Shotgun]

I actually like the design.

I am curious about the symbolism of the different elements.

If you have the blazon I'd love to read it!

[PHall]

I was thinking more of how units with "significant" history were more important than other units and they made 20-30 units change their names.   But yes that guy

The only "good" thing McPeak did for the uniform was the Aircrew Style Name Patch being worn on the DCU's and BDU's.
It was a LOT easier and cheaper to sew just one 2" x 4" piece of velcro on then the half a dozen individual patches.

[a2capt]

..and for all the "good" it was, you see where that went.

*Poof*

[PHall]

At least with the ABU they got on the "right path" by authorizing the minimum number of stuff to sew on.
They could reduce futher by dumping the sleeve and collar grade insignia and just go with grade worn on the front of the blouse like the Army does with the ACU.

[Private Investigator]

Vanguard has been very good to work with during this process.  They stopped making the old patch a few months ago.  What ever inventory is left will be purchased by the wing. 

And yes I am the new "Wing King". 

The Wing has supported this idea from the get go.  We are excited for the change.

Excited, how awesome. In the corporate world we get excited with change. I guess that could work in CAP too.

But, if we changing just to be changing what is the purpose? In management, in the corporate world we do stuff like that to remind people who is in charge. In the military world it is different. History, tradition, etc, etc. The traditional MTWG with the outline of the state reminds people of "1941", "CAP", "the humble beginnings", "etc", "etc".

Good luck sir.

Do you remember Gen Mc Peak.....and his ideal of preserving history, tradition, etc?  The "real military" is just as bad as the corporate world.

http://www.thewalkingdead.org/

Remember the "The Walking Dead"? Marine Infantry Battalion from WWI, WWII, Viet Nam, Desert Storm, OIF, OEF & various police actions. Their motto was changed by a Battalion Commander to "Walking Death", because as a English Major (college 'know-it-all' not military 'know-it-all) it was not proper? 70+ years and the motto was incorrect? Now it is back to "The Walking Dead". At least somebody has a clue   

[RiverAux]

Pretty sure I heard this week that they were being deactivated.

[Private Investigator]

I actually like the design.

I am curious about the symbolism of the different elements.

If you have the blazon I'd love to read it!

I am curious too. 

[Private Investigator]

Pretty sure I heard this week that they were being deactivated.

Yes. I am not happy about it but somebody has to retire their colors in downsizing.

Semper Fi   

[Private Investigator]

...

It is what it is. Something your great grandchildren would appreciate. 

[Panache]

At least with the ABU they got on the "right path" by authorizing the minimum number of stuff to sew on.
They could reduce futher by dumping the sleeve and collar grade insignia and just go with grade worn on the front of the blouse like the Army does with the ACU.

I've always liked the old Army officer insignia on their BDUs (not ACUs) with their grade on the wearer's right collar, and their specialty on their left.

[FlyTiger77]

...with grade worn on the front of the blouse like the Army does with the ACU.

I was not a fan as I didn't like losing my branch insignia when went to the ACUs.

I've always liked the old Army officer insignia on their BDUs (not ACUs) with their grade on the wearer's right collar, and their specialty branch on their left.

What he said.