Master Observer Rating

[Eclipse]

I use a GDocs sheet to track all of my CAP activities, though it is always out of date.

[jeders]

I know that in far too many cases, we have an "Observer" who is basically flying right seat (too many times to the deficiency of the mission),
but I've never heard of putting too MPs in the front and an MO in the back.

This is more of what I meant. An observer who is a pilot and is up front just to get flight time so that he can move on to MP. Again, not necessarily bad in training missions, especially if you're squadron really needs to get more MPs.

Also....if you got one of those bad MP types who expect MOs to keep their hands to themselves and just take pictures.......you might as well sit in the back seat. 

We don't invite those people to our playground anymore.

Thankfully we were able to fix that situation a while back.

Fortunately there are fewer and fewer of these around these parts, but there are still some.

As to the logbook, I keep both a physical logbook and an electronic backup. My physical one is just a standard pilot logbook from the local FBO. My electronic one is an excel spreadsheet where I track Mission #, Sortie #, Aircraft type, tail number, CAPFLT, Grid #/route, # of hours, total hours, type of mission.

[bflynn]

An observer who is a pilot and is up front just to get flight time so that he can move on to MP.

Everyone has to make their own decision about loggin log flight hours.  But a MO pilot sitting in the right seat isn't a required crewmember and really shouldn't be logging pilot hours because they're not flying.  No matter how many mission pilots a group needs, it just flat out doesn't meet FAR regulations.

[JeffDG]

An observer who is a pilot and is up front just to get flight time so that he can move on to MP.

Everyone has to make their own decision about loggin log flight hours.  But a MO pilot sitting in the right seat isn't a required crewmember and really shouldn't be logging pilot hours because they're not flying.  No matter how many mission pilots a group needs, it just flat out doesn't meet FAR regulations.

Why do you presume both that such an observer is sitting in the right seat, and is not flying the aircraft?

You don't need to be a required crewmember if you are the manipulator of the controls.

[flyboy53]

An observer who is a pilot and is up front just to get flight time so that he can move on to MP.

Everyone has to make their own decision about loggin log flight hours.  But a MO pilot sitting in the right seat isn't a required crewmember and really shouldn't be logging pilot hours because they're not flying.  No matter how many mission pilots a group needs, it just flat out doesn't meet FAR regulations.

Why do you presume both that such an observer is sitting in the right seat, and is not flying the aircraft?

You don't need to be a required crewmember if you are the manipulator of the controls.

I realize that training is one thing, but once rated, I've never been in a situation where sitting in the back seat during a mission didn't count toward my total hours as an observer -- especially when the guy in the right seat was another mission pilot.

I've been in two wings during my career that required two pilots up front while the observer sat in the back. It never affected my current rating or the compiling of hours. In fact, while once flying in a Beaver with the Alaska Wing, I once flew with a crew of six -- two pilots in front and four observers in back.

These days, I've seen a lot more of two pilots in front during actual missions bacause of the age of the PIC. I don't think this is going to change much until CAP gets that program up in operation that gives basic flight training to observers. I've already completed a similar AOPA course. I'd recommend all observers or scanners do the same.

Also as for operating the radios, I've done it twice from the back seat, using the toggle switch mounted on the arm rest, so I don't get what observers can and cannot do especailly when we're heading toward more of the SDIS stuff.

Also, the logbook I use, "Logbook for Civil Air Patrol Scanners and Observers," came from the old Bookstore, It was published by STUFF, 101 Eastlawn Drive, Hampton VA 23664-1818. It may be the same one now offered by Vanguard.

One more thing, something else that a good observer should learn to do is compile their own set of checklists or operating instructions. More than once, I've had a mission pilot in the right seat who didn't know how to run the radios or messed up the GPS and I had to give that person instructions from the back seat -- but that gets us off the subject of this thread.

[EMT-83]

So, you're sitting in the back seat while the guy up front is working the radios, GPS and DF.

That would make you ... wait for it now... the scanner.

[lordmonar]

So, you're sitting in the back seat while the guy up front is working the radios, GPS and DF.

That would make you ... wait for it now... the scanner.

No...that makes you an observer in the back seat.

[ol'fido]

Remember, too, that Mission Scanner is a qualification that didn't exist until what 10-15 years ago(?). Before that you had a MP and everybody else in the aircraft was an observer.

[lordmonar]

I still don't understand the MS qual.

[PHall]

I still don't understand the MS qual.

Basically a way for someone training to be an Observer to get into the air and get some "hands on" experience.

[davidsinn]

The scanner is the sensor package. The MP and MO's job is to get the MS into position.

[sardak]

Mission Scanner is a qualification that didn't exist until what 10-15 years ago(?)
I still don't understand the MS qual.

The Mission Scanner qual was created in 1975 and has existed ever since. Here is the summary of revisions from CAPM 50-5 (8 Aug 1975) "Observer Manual" which superseded CAPM 50-5 (Sept. 1964).
*******
This revision divides the observer program into two phases, scanner qualification and observer qualification. It eliminates several superfluous areas of ground training and reduces the flying training required to obtain the observer rating. In addition, it generally updates the manual.
******
And
*****
Para 1-2.  Concept of Training - The observer course is divided into two phases. Phase I is rather abbreviated but is designed to qualify scanner candidates in a short time to become productive members of the SAR team. Phase II is somewhat longer and more demanding. It includes some areas which may seem unnecessary to the trainee, such as knowledge of the flight computer; however, trainees should bear in mind that knowledge of these areas will be a definite asset when they begin training for mission coordinator (MC) qualification. During mission coordinator training the observer candidate's knowledge in those areas which will be frequently encountered after becoming mission coordinators. [Wow! quite the strategic vision].
***********

Mike

[ol'fido]

Mission Scanner is a qualification that didn't exist until what 10-15 years ago(?)
I still don't understand the MS qual.

The Mission Scanner qual was created in 1975 and has existed ever since. Here is the summary of revisions from CAPM 50-5 (8 Aug 1975) "Observer Manual" which superseded CAPM 50-5 (Sept. 1964).
*******
This revision divides the observer program into two phases, scanner qualification and observer qualification. It eliminates several superfluous areas of ground training and reduces the flying training required to obtain the observer rating. In addition, it generally updates the manual.
******
And
*****
Para 1-2.  Concept of Training - The observer course is divided into two phases. Phase I is rather abbreviated but is designed to qualify scanner candidates in a short time to become productive members of the SAR team. Phase II is somewhat longer and more demanding. It includes some areas which may seem unnecessary to the trainee, such as knowledge of the flight computer; however, trainees should bear in mind that knowledge of these areas will be a definite asset when they begin training for mission coordinator (MC) qualification. During mission coordinator training the observer candidate's knowledge in those areas which will be frequently encountered after becoming mission coordinators. [Wow! quite the strategic vision].
***********

Mike

It may have existed in regs but I never heard the term from the time I joined in '77 until at least 1992 and I believe sometime after. And I was heavily involved in ES in those years including participation in several region SARCOMPs. 

[SarDragon]

I still don't understand the MS qual.

Basically a way for someone training to be an Observer to get into the air and get some "hands on" experience.

To expand on that, it reduces the volume of flow coming out of the fire hose of information. Splitting the task set allows new people to work their way into the front seat at a more comfortable rate. Flying in the back lets the scanner get familiar with the MO job gradually, instead of throwing the entire crap ton of tasks out there, saying "learn this", and then throwing him into the front seat right out of the chute.

When I first qualified as an MO, back in the '70s, the typical aircrew had two  pilots up front, and the MO never got out of the back seat. With the new setup, non-pilots start in the back (MS) with an initial skill set, and then move up front (MO) after learning the second skill set. That's also why an MP needs to be an MS first, so he's familiar with what's going on in the back and right seats.

[flyboy53]

So, you’re sitting in the back seat while the guy up front is working the radios, GPS and DF.

That would make you … wait for it now… the scanner.

The Mission Observer is a scanner with expanded duties who usually sits in
the right front seat. In addition to the primary duty of scanning while in the search
area, the observer assists the pilot with planning, navigation, and communication.
The observer may also serve as mission commander, ensuring that all mission
objectives are met. Source: Civil Air Patrol Mission Aircrew Reference Text, Revision 1, February 2008

Was I the only one paying attention in class.......

[Майор Хаткевич]

So, you're sitting in the back seat while the guy up front is working the radios, GPS and DF.

That would make you ... wait for it now... the scanner.

The Mission Observer is a scanner with expanded duties who usually sits in
the right front seat. In addition to the primary duty of scanning while in the search
area, the observer assists the pilot with planning, navigation, and communication.
The observer may also server as mission commander, ensuring that all mission
objectives are met. Source: Civil Air Patrol Mission Aircrew Refernce Text, Revision 1, February 2008

Was I the only one paying attention in class.......

^+1

Seems a lot of pilot types think that since a pilot can handle radios, why not just replace the observer with an MP. Of course that's where the disservice to our mission comes, because those MPs are there for the flying, not the scanning...

[Flying Pig]

Interesting discussion this has become.  Where I work, all pilots start as tactical flight officers (TFO)  So a pilot has already worked, and is an experienced Observer.  Although we dont staff two pilot crews very often, usually its done to cover vacations, etc, there are often times where the pilot and observer are both qualified high time pilots and also very experienced observers. Never has been an issue.

What is important is knowing what role your occupying. 

[JeffDG]

So, you're sitting in the back seat while the guy up front is working the radios, GPS and DF.

That would make you ... wait for it now... the scanner.

The Mission Observer is a scanner with expanded duties who usually sits in
the right front seat. In addition to the primary duty of scanning while in the search
area, the observer assists the pilot with planning, navigation, and communication.
The observer may also server as mission commander, ensuring that all mission
objectives are met. Source: Civil Air Patrol Mission Aircrew Refernce Text, Revision 1, February 2008

Was I the only one paying attention in class.......

^+1

Seems a lot of pilot types think that since a pilot can handle radios, why not just replace the observer with an MP. Of course that's where the disservice to our mission comes, because those MPs are there for the flying, not the scanning...

I take exception to that.

I'm a pilot who is also an observer.  When I'm acting as the observer, I'm acting as the observer.  Other than helping the pilot run checklists pre-takeoff if requested, I'm really disinterested in the flying.

OK, on a highbird with an airborne repeater, I'll happily fly...because the Observer's job is rather boring on such flights!  But on any kind of low-level flight (search, route survey, etc.), I'm too [darn]ed busy doing my observer stuff to even think about the yoke in front of me.

[Майор Хаткевич]

You are not one of those who do then. But most of the complaints that pop up are typically because of the MP > All others attitude. Go figure...

[flyboy53]

So, you’re sitting in the back seat while the guy up front is working the radios, GPS and DF.

That would make you … wait for it now… the scanner.

The Mission Observer is a scanner with expanded duties who usually sits in
the right front seat. In addition to the primary duty of scanning while in the search
area, the observer assists the pilot with planning, navigation, and communication.
The observer may also serve as mission commander, ensuring that all mission
objectives are met. Source: Civil Air Patrol Mission Aircrew Refernce Text, Revision 1, February 2008

Was I the only one paying attention in class.......

^+1

Seems a lot of pilot types think that since a pilot can handle radios, why not just replace the observer with an MP. Of course that's where the disservice to our mission comes, because those MPs are there for the flying, not the scanning...

It shouldn't matter if there are two MPs in front and an observer or scanner in the back or one of each on a crew. The whole thing is that it is one crew. The most important part is the safe execution of the sortie and the safe return of the crew; with every member of that crew having certain integral responsibilities instrumental to the safe and successful outcome of the flight. There also shouldn't be an us vs them mentality.

When I first earned my observer rating in 1972, (I still have that pair of "droop" wings) there wasn't such a thing as a scanner and you still sat in the back of the plane. The oddest thing I remember from that time was a requirement to hold a Red Cross First Aid Card -- pilots didn't need one. Since then, I have seen so many observers that were specialized in certain areas, like SDIS, Archer, aerial photographer, Surrogate Predator, and the few radiological monitors who are still out there. I see the rating as less and less search and rescue and more a jack of all trades doing just about anthing you could think about in terms of missions. Sometimes I've even wondered if they would revive the stewardess rating that there once was....ever see that badge. It's a pilot's badge with only one wing.

That's also why it shouldn't matter where you're sitting in the airplane. Observers are still basically scanners.

So I think those of us who have earned the rating need to take pride in our accomplishment and endeavor to be as professional as possible an aircrew member, all the while striving for that star or wreath and star above our wings. When I finally earned my senior rating, 29 years had passed from the first time; and I had to go through the process of requalifying. The goal was worth wait.