Master Observer Rating

[jayleswo]

Maybe this will help clarify the intention (extract of a KB question I posted and the response from NHQ back in 2006). Obviously, they haven't gotten around to updating the reg.

From: Desmarais, John W. <snip>
Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 8:53 PM
Subject: RE: Never got an answer to this KB question... Master Observer Rating

We believe the intention would be for any mission including CD and HLS, and we'll work that in to the next change to the regulation.

John D.


JOHN W. DESMARAIS, Sr., Lt Col, CAP
Deputy Director, Operations
Missions Directorate
Civil Air Patrol National Headquarters

<snip>

  _____ 

From: Major John Aylesworth, CAP
Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2006 8:58 PM
To: dos
Subject: Never got an answer to this KB question... Master Observer Rating


Hello,

The auto-responder notice said I should contact the OPR directly if I did not receive an answer to my question. Sice I haven't, I am forwarding it to you directly for a response. Please let me know, thanks! My question was:

For the Master Observer aeronautical rating...
In Answer ID 524 (and in CAPR 35-6) it says, "4) Have flown 20 sorties as a senior mission observer on SAR/DR missions." I imagine this reg was published when those were the only ES missions flown by CAP, but it doesn't mention CD (counterdrug) or HLS (homeland security) missions. Should this actually say"... on Emergency Services or AFAM (e.g. SAR/DR/CD/HLS) missions"? CD missions account for a huge amount of flying time for CAP these days and HLS may well in the future.

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<snip>

[AirDX]

IMHO, training sorties count towards the 20 sorties. There are still 200 hours as an observer required for the Master rating, which is going to take more than 20 sorties.

Mike

I concur.  Similar USAF ratings require 2000 or 3000 hours, type of hours not specified, and many of those will be training hours.

[flyboy53]

IMHO, training sorties count towards the 20 sorties. There are still 200 hours as an observer required for the Master rating, which is going to take more than 20 sorties.

Mike

I concur.  Similar USAF ratings require 2000 or 3000 hours, type of hours not specified, and many of those will be training hours.

Me, too, and for the same reasons. Pilots aren't required to tally mission sorties. Their total hours count toward senior and command ratings. Besides, observers don't usually fly as often as pilots.

[jeders]

IMHO, training sorties count towards the 20 sorties. There are still 200 hours as an observer required for the Master rating, which is going to take more than 20 sorties.

Mike

I concur.  Similar USAF ratings require 2000 or 3000 hours, type of hours not specified, and many of those will be training hours.

Me, too, and for the same reasons. Pilots aren't required to tally mission sorties. Their total hours count toward senior and command ratings. Besides, observers don't usually fly as often as pilots.

Particularly when the observer is not also a pilot. Often times the observer gets put in back, or not taken at all, in favor of getting pilots more flight time. Not saying that it's necessarily bad, it just makes it harder to reach the goal.

[Eclipse]

How is an Observer going to function from the back seat?

[jeders]

How is an Observer going to function from the back seat?

My point exactly. Practically though, he functions as a scanner unless the aircraft is set up so that he can still do radio calls and such from the back.

[Eclipse]

I know that in far too many cases, we have an "Observer" who is basically flying right seat (too many times to the deficiency of the mission),
but I've never heard of putting too MPs in the front and an MO in the back.

[lordmonar]

How is an Observer going to function from the back seat?

Same way he functions in the front seat.....he just does not have any radios to tune.

[lordmonar]

I know that in far too many cases, we have an "Observer" who is basically flying right seat (too many times to the deficiency of the mission),
but I've never heard of putting too MPs in the front and an MO in the back.

Happens all the time.....MP SET rigt seat, MP T in the Left seat, MO in back.

Also happens when you have an MO who is also an MP or TP....if you have a really bad GOB network running the Air Ops section....pilots get dibs over everyone else.

[Eclipse]

How is an Observer going to function from the back seat?

Same way he functions in the front seat.....he just does not have any radios to tune.

No radios, no DF, no MFD for navigation, just windows.

[EMT-83]

The MO needs to keep his skills just as sharp as the MP, and he can't do that from the back seat.

Why do the MO and MS get treated as the red-headed step children on air crews?

[Eclipse]

Some allow themselves to be treated that way.

[Woodsy]

Is there any guidance on tracking / verifying MO flight hours?  Since there isn't a reporting requirement, how is this handled?  I can't find anything in regs. 

[Eclipse]

Is there any guidance on tracking / verifying MO flight hours?  Since there isn't a reporting requirement, how is this handled?  I can't find anything in regs.

Just like pilot hours, you keep a personal log.

Based on most missions, it would take somewhere between 100-150 sorties to make 200 hours.  And those hours and sorties have to be after you make senior.

[lordmonar]

How is an Observer going to function from the back seat?

Same way he functions in the front seat.....he just does not have any radios to tune.

No radios, no DF, no MFD for navigation, just windows.

Not all planes have MFD's and I can read the Becker just fine from the back seat.

Navigation is look at the map and looking at the terrain....

Also....if you got one of those bad MP types who expect MOs to keep their hands to themselves and just take pictures.......you might as well sit in the back seat. 

[sardak]

Is there any guidance on tracking / verifying MO flight hours?  Since there isn't a reporting requirement, how is this handled?  I can't find anything in regs.

Look again. CAPR 35-6, right in the section about Observer ratings: NOTE: Observer flight time and sorties should be logged in the same manner as pilots are required in the FARs (use of a pilot logbook or similar system is encouraged).

It used to be that the hours in the logbook had to be certified by the MC (IC) or air ops officer (not the pilot). For Master Observer, the 20 sorties had to be certified in the log and also transferred to the CAP 45, Senior Member Master Record. Now we rely on CAP Values and the 12 Points of the Scout Law for certification, although the reg still includes "certified flying time" for Senior but not for Master.

And those hours and sorties have to be after you make senior.

Just the sorties have to be as a "senior mission observer," the hours are as a "CAP mission observer," with 100 of the hours required for the senior rating.

Mike

[Eclipse]

Also....if you got one of those bad MP types who expect MOs to keep their hands to themselves and just take pictures.......you might as well sit in the back seat. 

We don't invite those people to our playground anymore.

Thankfully we were able to fix that situation a while back.

[Woodsy]

Is there any guidance on tracking / verifying MO flight hours?  Since there isn't a reporting requirement, how is this handled?  I can't find anything in regs.

Look again. CAPR 35-6, right in the section about Observer ratings: NOTE: Observer flight time and sorties should be logged in the same manner as pilots are required in the FARs (use of a pilot logbook or similar system is encouraged).

It used to be that the hours in the logbook had to be certified by the MC (IC) or air ops officer (not the pilot). For Master Observer, the 20 sorties had to be certified in the log and also transferred to the CAP 45, Senior Member Master Record. Now we rely on CAP Values and the 12 Points of the Scout Law for certification, although the reg still includes "certified flying time" for Senior but not for Master.

And those hours and sorties have to be after you make senior.

Just the sorties have to be as a "senior mission observer," the hours are as a "CAP mission observer," with 100 of the hours required for the senior rating.

Mike

That I saw, but that doesn't really tell you much.  What  meant is there any guidance for what specifically has to be recorded?  i.e. date, times, mission number and that's it?  Or do you need additional things like airports, who the pilot was, tail number, etc? 


I'm not a pilot, so I have no idea what a pilot usually logs to do it in the same manner as they would, or what a "FAR" is. 

[sardak]

Not really being one of those snarky enough to use the LMGTFY button, a LMSCTFY button would be useful, as would be a WDYAx2QMIP? button.

A search of CAP Talk turned up at least seven threads on "observer logbook." Vanguard sells one, some wings did/do have one, a number of members use electronic versions which they created themselves or obtained from other sources, others use pilot logs, etc. The reference to the FARs (Federal Aviation Regulations) means use a logbook like pilots are required to do.

What to put in a log? Given what's been discussed and what the reg requires provide some obvious items. Expanding on that and the reference to logs - date, mission number, sortie number, type of mission, duty (MS, MO, qual/trainee), flight hours, pilot's name and comments would be good items to track.

The other reason to search CAP Talk is to find interesting items like the fact that a thread entitled "Master Observer" was started just a couple of months ago, or statements like this:
"OK, I'll be honest, I've never heard of a Senior and Master level for Mission Observer. What is this, and what does it buy you?" posted by someone who picked up the moniker Encyclopedia yesterday.

Mike

[SarDragon]

Here are the column headings in my scanner/observer logbook from Vanguard:
Left page

Date

*

A/C Type

*

A/C Tail #

*

Mission Base

*

Mission #

*

Grid #

*

PIC Endorsement

Right page

Scanner Time

*

Obs Time

*

Training Time

*

SARCAP Time

*

REDCAP Time

*

CD Time

*

Customs Time

*

Other Time

*

Type of Mission

*

Saves

*

Find /

*

Total Flight Time

[* added to improve readability]