Master Observer Rating

[jeders]

CAPR 35-6 requires that a senior observer complete 20 actual SAR/DR missions, in addition to 200 hrs total flying time, to become a Master Observer. In my 6 or 7 years of being an aircrew member I've been on 0 SAR missions and 2 DR missions. It seems to me as if it would be next to impossible to ever become a Master Observer in the next 20 years at this rate. For those that have become Master Observers or that are in the approval chain, are you seeing acceptance of non SAR/DR actual missions to count? Examples being CD/HLS missions or missions in direct support of the Air Force. I plan on bringing this up with the wing director of ops next month at the wing conference, but I wanted to see what the current state is on this matter in CAP.

[SarDragon]

Back in the day, when missions were more plentiful, it wasn't that difficult to achieve those numbers.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

In almost 19 years of CAP, I have personally known one Master Observer.

[Eclipse]

It's luck of the draw.  My wing has a fair amount of real missions, so it's not really an issue, though Master MO's are fairly rare as mentioned.

By design, I'd guess, same as the DR or Find.  Some people has two ribbons full of attachments, and some people retire and never get either.

[SarDragon]

I know a couple of people who might qualify, but haven't bothered to keep track of the numbers.

[ColonelJack]

It took for-fracking-ever to get my Senior Observer wings ... I doubt I'll ever earn Master Observer.

Jack

[FlyTiger77]

CAPR 35-6 requires that a senior observer complete 20 actual SAR/DR missions...

The regulation states "...flown 20 sorties as a senior mission observer on SAR/DR missions." (para 1(j)(4))

The word "actual" is not in the regulation.

Pardon my ignorance, but can a mission sortie flown on a SAREx or DR exercise under a mission number not count toward that requirement?

I would be interested in interpretations and I would be very interested in interpretations citing authoritative guidance. 

[Eclipse]

Practice missions don't count towards any other decoration, why would they count towards this?

[FlyTiger77]

Practice missions don't count towards any other decoration, why would they count towards this?

Is there a differentiation between a decoration and a qualification rating?

I can lose my aviator wings, jump wings, etc, but not a medal (assuming it was properly awarded by competent authority, of course).

[SarDragon]

The definition of "mission" seems to be a little obscure, too. IMHO, "mission" is the real thing, and "exercise" is the practice stuff, but that distinction is not made in the regs (60-1 and 35-6).

YMMV.

[SarDragon]

Practice missions don't count towards any other decoration, why would they count towards this?

Is there a differentiation between a decoration and a qualification?

I can lose my aviator wings, jump wings, etc, but not a medal (assuming it was properly awarded by competent authority, of course).

Wings (an awarded badge) are permanent, unless revoked for cause (unlikely in the CAP arena), but the qualifications behind them can expire.

[jeders]

CAPR 35-6 requires that a senior observer complete 20 actual SAR/DR missions...

The regulation states "...flown 20 sorties as a senior mission observer on SAR/DR missions." (para 1(j)(4))

The word "actual" is not in the regulation.

Pardon my ignorance, but can a mission flown on a SAREx or DR exercise under a mission number not count toward that requirement?

I would be interested in interpretations and I would be very interested in interpretations citing authoritative guidance. 

The way I've always thought about it is that you have to fly SAR/DR missions, whereas what you propose are merely exercises. It would be nice, but I'm fairly certain that that would never fly, as it were.

I understand the requirement for the actual missions, I just think that it should be broadened, if it's not already being broadened in practical application, to allow for other real missions. That and maybe making it 20 real missions total instead of 20 as a Senior Observer.

[spacecommand]

It is 20 sorties not 20 missions.  One mission can have multiple sorties in one day or a series of days. 

[Pylon]

Many training exercises have mission numbers from Wing.  Does that make them "missions"?  (Honest question)

[Spaceman3750]

Many training exercises have mission numbers from Wing.  Does that make them "missions"?  (Honest question)

More than wing - most training missions I have participated in or coordinated were AF assigned missions. The only real difference was "T" instead of "M" in the number and A5 symbols on the sorties.

[CAP_truth]

Back in the day, when missions were more plentiful, it wasn't that difficult to achieve those numbers.

Back in the day only the number of flight hours counted and not missions. I have my master rating from many years ago.

[lordmonar]

A "T" mission is a training mission....even if you did SAR/DR work....it is just a training mission.

I too am comming up on my 200 hour mark and will not have my 20 sorties.

Interesing.....it is harder to get your Master Observer wings....then it is to get your Command Pilot wings.

Things that make you go HMMMM.

[sardak]

Many training exercises have mission numbers from Wing.  Does that make them "missions"?  (Honest question)

Short answer, yes.
CAPR 60-3 (17 Aug 2009, current)
1-3(a) Air Force Assigned Mission (AFAM) – Any CAP activity authorized by the Air Force to use an "A" or "B" mission symbol.
1-3 (b) CAP Corporate Mission – All authorized mission activities that are not AFAMs.
2-3(c) states that missions for training credit do not have to be AFAMs.

In addition to those terms, 60-3 also uses the terms missions, actual missions, training missions and operational missions - but fails to define them. The 2001 and 2004 versions of 60-3 defined an operational mission as "Any mission where CAP provides a service or activity for another agency. These missions require the specialty ratings delineated in this regulation." but still failed to include definitions of the other terms.

The 50/55 series of ES regs and manuals, superseded by CAPR 60-3 (2001), defined operational mission as: "Any activity, including search and rescue, disaster relief, counterdrug, Red Cross support, low-level survey, state/local survey, transport, cadet orientation, training and evaluation, etc. which uses CAP resources and is conducted in accordance with applicable CAP directives."

One has to go back to CAPM 50-15 "Emergency Services" (15 Apr 1983) to find the general definition of mission. "Unless otherwise stated, 'missions' in this manual include SAR activities coordinated by the Air Force Aerospace Rescue and Recovery Service (ARRS); DR activities in support of local, state, and national DR organizations, authorized by the Air Force Reserve, numbered Air Force; and ES evaluation/training missions approved by National Headquarters CAP."

Here are the requirements from CAPM 50-5, "Observer Training" (8 Aug 1975). "The observer training program is organized in two phases. Completion of Phase I qualifies the trainee as a scanner. Completion of Phase II qualifies the trainee as an observer and earns the aeronautical rating." Phase I was ground training plus 1 flight. Phase II was additional ground training, obtain a radio operator permit, complete the Radiological Monitor Home Study Course and Aerial Radiological Monitor training, take parts I and II of CAP test 116 and take four more flights, with a total estimated flight time of 4 to 6 hours.

IMHO, training sorties count towards the 20 sorties. There are still 200 hours as an observer required for the Master rating, which is going to take more than 20 sorties.

Mike

[flyboy53]

Another short answer. Get a logbook and start tracking your hours. In the end it may be up to your wing DO people to decide what missions will or will not count.

I asked this same question a year or so ago through the Knowledgebase because I was concerned about the same issue. I hold a senior observer rating and I'm working toward master. At the time, I was compiling more CD missions than anything else. My tally also includes one HLS mission,  a couple of SAR, a bunch of training missions, and I have one find to my credit. The answer that came back was that NHQ was going to change the mission criteria to allow other missions toward the master obsever tally and update that criteria in a future reg.

In my wing, I have known only one other senior observer, who happened to be the wing commander at the time. I know of only two master observers. Both of whom are no longer flying. One those individuals wears an aerial radiological monitoring patch if and when he wears a flight suit. The other actually took his wings off until he was prompted by other wing staff members.

I get the sense from a lot of observers that they don't care; that a lot of them only did enough of the training just to earn their wings, so there isn't a real effort to keep track of hours or missions. At some point they drop off flight status and move on to other things.

[RiverAux]

The hour requirements are so crazy high that I bet we have more qualified ICs than Senior or Master Observers.  Now, if you were in a wing back in the days of many ELT missions it might not have been too hard.  However, I suspect that in most of the country obtaining the hour requirement would be the issue.  If you can meet the hour requirement the sortie requirements would almost certainly have been met. 

[jayleswo]

Maybe this will help clarify the intention (extract of a KB question I posted and the response from NHQ back in 2006). Obviously, they haven't gotten around to updating the reg.

From: Desmarais, John W. <snip>
Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 8:53 PM
Subject: RE: Never got an answer to this KB question... Master Observer Rating

We believe the intention would be for any mission including CD and HLS, and we'll work that in to the next change to the regulation.

John D.


JOHN W. DESMARAIS, Sr., Lt Col, CAP
Deputy Director, Operations
Missions Directorate
Civil Air Patrol National Headquarters

<snip>

  _____ 

From: Major John Aylesworth, CAP
Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2006 8:58 PM
To: dos
Subject: Never got an answer to this KB question... Master Observer Rating


Hello,

The auto-responder notice said I should contact the OPR directly if I did not receive an answer to my question. Sice I haven't, I am forwarding it to you directly for a response. Please let me know, thanks! My question was:

For the Master Observer aeronautical rating...
In Answer ID 524 (and in CAPR 35-6) it says, "4) Have flown 20 sorties as a senior mission observer on SAR/DR missions." I imagine this reg was published when those were the only ES missions flown by CAP, but it doesn't mention CD (counterdrug) or HLS (homeland security) missions. Should this actually say"... on Emergency Services or AFAM (e.g. SAR/DR/CD/HLS) missions"? CD missions account for a huge amount of flying time for CAP these days and HLS may well in the future.

Recently you submitted a request to the CAP Knowledgebase. Below is a
summary of your request and our response.

We will assume your issue has been resolved if we do not hear from you
within 48 hours.

Thank you for allowing us to be of service to you.

If your issue remains unresolved, please update this question at
http://capnhq.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/capnhq.cfg/php/enduser/acct_login.php?
<snip>

[AirDX]

IMHO, training sorties count towards the 20 sorties. There are still 200 hours as an observer required for the Master rating, which is going to take more than 20 sorties.

Mike

I concur.  Similar USAF ratings require 2000 or 3000 hours, type of hours not specified, and many of those will be training hours.

[flyboy53]

IMHO, training sorties count towards the 20 sorties. There are still 200 hours as an observer required for the Master rating, which is going to take more than 20 sorties.

Mike

I concur.  Similar USAF ratings require 2000 or 3000 hours, type of hours not specified, and many of those will be training hours.

Me, too, and for the same reasons. Pilots aren't required to tally mission sorties. Their total hours count toward senior and command ratings. Besides, observers don't usually fly as often as pilots.

[jeders]

IMHO, training sorties count towards the 20 sorties. There are still 200 hours as an observer required for the Master rating, which is going to take more than 20 sorties.

Mike

I concur.  Similar USAF ratings require 2000 or 3000 hours, type of hours not specified, and many of those will be training hours.

Me, too, and for the same reasons. Pilots aren't required to tally mission sorties. Their total hours count toward senior and command ratings. Besides, observers don't usually fly as often as pilots.

Particularly when the observer is not also a pilot. Often times the observer gets put in back, or not taken at all, in favor of getting pilots more flight time. Not saying that it's necessarily bad, it just makes it harder to reach the goal.

[Eclipse]

How is an Observer going to function from the back seat?

[jeders]

How is an Observer going to function from the back seat?

My point exactly. Practically though, he functions as a scanner unless the aircraft is set up so that he can still do radio calls and such from the back.

[Eclipse]

I know that in far too many cases, we have an "Observer" who is basically flying right seat (too many times to the deficiency of the mission),
but I've never heard of putting too MPs in the front and an MO in the back.

[lordmonar]

How is an Observer going to function from the back seat?

Same way he functions in the front seat.....he just does not have any radios to tune.

[lordmonar]

I know that in far too many cases, we have an "Observer" who is basically flying right seat (too many times to the deficiency of the mission),
but I've never heard of putting too MPs in the front and an MO in the back.

Happens all the time.....MP SET rigt seat, MP T in the Left seat, MO in back.

Also happens when you have an MO who is also an MP or TP....if you have a really bad GOB network running the Air Ops section....pilots get dibs over everyone else.

[Eclipse]

How is an Observer going to function from the back seat?

Same way he functions in the front seat.....he just does not have any radios to tune.

No radios, no DF, no MFD for navigation, just windows.

[EMT-83]

The MO needs to keep his skills just as sharp as the MP, and he can't do that from the back seat.

Why do the MO and MS get treated as the red-headed step children on air crews?

[Eclipse]

Some allow themselves to be treated that way.

[Woodsy]

Is there any guidance on tracking / verifying MO flight hours?  Since there isn't a reporting requirement, how is this handled?  I can't find anything in regs. 

[Eclipse]

Is there any guidance on tracking / verifying MO flight hours?  Since there isn't a reporting requirement, how is this handled?  I can't find anything in regs.

Just like pilot hours, you keep a personal log.

Based on most missions, it would take somewhere between 100-150 sorties to make 200 hours.  And those hours and sorties have to be after you make senior.

[lordmonar]

How is an Observer going to function from the back seat?

Same way he functions in the front seat.....he just does not have any radios to tune.

No radios, no DF, no MFD for navigation, just windows.

Not all planes have MFD's and I can read the Becker just fine from the back seat.

Navigation is look at the map and looking at the terrain....

Also....if you got one of those bad MP types who expect MOs to keep their hands to themselves and just take pictures.......you might as well sit in the back seat. 

[sardak]

Is there any guidance on tracking / verifying MO flight hours?  Since there isn't a reporting requirement, how is this handled?  I can't find anything in regs.

Look again. CAPR 35-6, right in the section about Observer ratings: NOTE: Observer flight time and sorties should be logged in the same manner as pilots are required in the FARs (use of a pilot logbook or similar system is encouraged).

It used to be that the hours in the logbook had to be certified by the MC (IC) or air ops officer (not the pilot). For Master Observer, the 20 sorties had to be certified in the log and also transferred to the CAP 45, Senior Member Master Record. Now we rely on CAP Values and the 12 Points of the Scout Law for certification, although the reg still includes "certified flying time" for Senior but not for Master.

And those hours and sorties have to be after you make senior.

Just the sorties have to be as a "senior mission observer," the hours are as a "CAP mission observer," with 100 of the hours required for the senior rating.

Mike

[Eclipse]

Also....if you got one of those bad MP types who expect MOs to keep their hands to themselves and just take pictures.......you might as well sit in the back seat. 

We don't invite those people to our playground anymore.

Thankfully we were able to fix that situation a while back.

[Woodsy]

Is there any guidance on tracking / verifying MO flight hours?  Since there isn't a reporting requirement, how is this handled?  I can't find anything in regs.

Look again. CAPR 35-6, right in the section about Observer ratings: NOTE: Observer flight time and sorties should be logged in the same manner as pilots are required in the FARs (use of a pilot logbook or similar system is encouraged).

It used to be that the hours in the logbook had to be certified by the MC (IC) or air ops officer (not the pilot). For Master Observer, the 20 sorties had to be certified in the log and also transferred to the CAP 45, Senior Member Master Record. Now we rely on CAP Values and the 12 Points of the Scout Law for certification, although the reg still includes "certified flying time" for Senior but not for Master.

And those hours and sorties have to be after you make senior.

Just the sorties have to be as a "senior mission observer," the hours are as a "CAP mission observer," with 100 of the hours required for the senior rating.

Mike

That I saw, but that doesn't really tell you much.  What  meant is there any guidance for what specifically has to be recorded?  i.e. date, times, mission number and that's it?  Or do you need additional things like airports, who the pilot was, tail number, etc? 


I'm not a pilot, so I have no idea what a pilot usually logs to do it in the same manner as they would, or what a "FAR" is. 

[sardak]

Not really being one of those snarky enough to use the LMGTFY button, a LMSCTFY button would be useful, as would be a WDYAx2QMIP? button.

A search of CAP Talk turned up at least seven threads on "observer logbook." Vanguard sells one, some wings did/do have one, a number of members use electronic versions which they created themselves or obtained from other sources, others use pilot logs, etc. The reference to the FARs (Federal Aviation Regulations) means use a logbook like pilots are required to do.

What to put in a log? Given what's been discussed and what the reg requires provide some obvious items. Expanding on that and the reference to logs - date, mission number, sortie number, type of mission, duty (MS, MO, qual/trainee), flight hours, pilot's name and comments would be good items to track.

The other reason to search CAP Talk is to find interesting items like the fact that a thread entitled "Master Observer" was started just a couple of months ago, or statements like this:
"OK, I'll be honest, I've never heard of a Senior and Master level for Mission Observer. What is this, and what does it buy you?" posted by someone who picked up the moniker Encyclopedia yesterday.

Mike

[SarDragon]

Here are the column headings in my scanner/observer logbook from Vanguard:
Left page

Date

*

A/C Type

*

A/C Tail #

*

Mission Base

*

Mission #

*

Grid #

*

PIC Endorsement

Right page

Scanner Time

*

Obs Time

*

Training Time

*

SARCAP Time

*

REDCAP Time

*

CD Time

*

Customs Time

*

Other Time

*

Type of Mission

*

Saves

*

Find /

*

Total Flight Time

[* added to improve readability]

[Eclipse]

I use a GDocs sheet to track all of my CAP activities, though it is always out of date.

[jeders]

I know that in far too many cases, we have an "Observer" who is basically flying right seat (too many times to the deficiency of the mission),
but I've never heard of putting too MPs in the front and an MO in the back.

This is more of what I meant. An observer who is a pilot and is up front just to get flight time so that he can move on to MP. Again, not necessarily bad in training missions, especially if you're squadron really needs to get more MPs.

Also....if you got one of those bad MP types who expect MOs to keep their hands to themselves and just take pictures.......you might as well sit in the back seat. 

We don't invite those people to our playground anymore.

Thankfully we were able to fix that situation a while back.

Fortunately there are fewer and fewer of these around these parts, but there are still some.

As to the logbook, I keep both a physical logbook and an electronic backup. My physical one is just a standard pilot logbook from the local FBO. My electronic one is an excel spreadsheet where I track Mission #, Sortie #, Aircraft type, tail number, CAPFLT, Grid #/route, # of hours, total hours, type of mission.

[bflynn]

An observer who is a pilot and is up front just to get flight time so that he can move on to MP.

Everyone has to make their own decision about loggin log flight hours.  But a MO pilot sitting in the right seat isn't a required crewmember and really shouldn't be logging pilot hours because they're not flying.  No matter how many mission pilots a group needs, it just flat out doesn't meet FAR regulations.

[JeffDG]

An observer who is a pilot and is up front just to get flight time so that he can move on to MP.

Everyone has to make their own decision about loggin log flight hours.  But a MO pilot sitting in the right seat isn't a required crewmember and really shouldn't be logging pilot hours because they're not flying.  No matter how many mission pilots a group needs, it just flat out doesn't meet FAR regulations.

Why do you presume both that such an observer is sitting in the right seat, and is not flying the aircraft?

You don't need to be a required crewmember if you are the manipulator of the controls.

[flyboy53]

An observer who is a pilot and is up front just to get flight time so that he can move on to MP.

Everyone has to make their own decision about loggin log flight hours.  But a MO pilot sitting in the right seat isn't a required crewmember and really shouldn't be logging pilot hours because they're not flying.  No matter how many mission pilots a group needs, it just flat out doesn't meet FAR regulations.

Why do you presume both that such an observer is sitting in the right seat, and is not flying the aircraft?

You don't need to be a required crewmember if you are the manipulator of the controls.

I realize that training is one thing, but once rated, I've never been in a situation where sitting in the back seat during a mission didn't count toward my total hours as an observer -- especially when the guy in the right seat was another mission pilot.

I've been in two wings during my career that required two pilots up front while the observer sat in the back. It never affected my current rating or the compiling of hours. In fact, while once flying in a Beaver with the Alaska Wing, I once flew with a crew of six -- two pilots in front and four observers in back.

These days, I've seen a lot more of two pilots in front during actual missions bacause of the age of the PIC. I don't think this is going to change much until CAP gets that program up in operation that gives basic flight training to observers. I've already completed a similar AOPA course. I'd recommend all observers or scanners do the same.

Also as for operating the radios, I've done it twice from the back seat, using the toggle switch mounted on the arm rest, so I don't get what observers can and cannot do especailly when we're heading toward more of the SDIS stuff.

Also, the logbook I use, "Logbook for Civil Air Patrol Scanners and Observers," came from the old Bookstore, It was published by STUFF, 101 Eastlawn Drive, Hampton VA 23664-1818. It may be the same one now offered by Vanguard.

One more thing, something else that a good observer should learn to do is compile their own set of checklists or operating instructions. More than once, I've had a mission pilot in the right seat who didn't know how to run the radios or messed up the GPS and I had to give that person instructions from the back seat -- but that gets us off the subject of this thread.

[EMT-83]

So, you're sitting in the back seat while the guy up front is working the radios, GPS and DF.

That would make you ... wait for it now... the scanner.

[lordmonar]

So, you're sitting in the back seat while the guy up front is working the radios, GPS and DF.

That would make you ... wait for it now... the scanner.

No...that makes you an observer in the back seat.

[ol'fido]

Remember, too, that Mission Scanner is a qualification that didn't exist until what 10-15 years ago(?). Before that you had a MP and everybody else in the aircraft was an observer.

[lordmonar]

I still don't understand the MS qual.

[PHall]

I still don't understand the MS qual.

Basically a way for someone training to be an Observer to get into the air and get some "hands on" experience.

[davidsinn]

The scanner is the sensor package. The MP and MO's job is to get the MS into position.

[sardak]

Mission Scanner is a qualification that didn't exist until what 10-15 years ago(?)
I still don't understand the MS qual.

The Mission Scanner qual was created in 1975 and has existed ever since. Here is the summary of revisions from CAPM 50-5 (8 Aug 1975) "Observer Manual" which superseded CAPM 50-5 (Sept. 1964).
*******
This revision divides the observer program into two phases, scanner qualification and observer qualification. It eliminates several superfluous areas of ground training and reduces the flying training required to obtain the observer rating. In addition, it generally updates the manual.
******
And
*****
Para 1-2.  Concept of Training - The observer course is divided into two phases. Phase I is rather abbreviated but is designed to qualify scanner candidates in a short time to become productive members of the SAR team. Phase II is somewhat longer and more demanding. It includes some areas which may seem unnecessary to the trainee, such as knowledge of the flight computer; however, trainees should bear in mind that knowledge of these areas will be a definite asset when they begin training for mission coordinator (MC) qualification. During mission coordinator training the observer candidate's knowledge in those areas which will be frequently encountered after becoming mission coordinators. [Wow! quite the strategic vision].
***********

Mike

[ol'fido]

Mission Scanner is a qualification that didn't exist until what 10-15 years ago(?)
I still don't understand the MS qual.

The Mission Scanner qual was created in 1975 and has existed ever since. Here is the summary of revisions from CAPM 50-5 (8 Aug 1975) "Observer Manual" which superseded CAPM 50-5 (Sept. 1964).
*******
This revision divides the observer program into two phases, scanner qualification and observer qualification. It eliminates several superfluous areas of ground training and reduces the flying training required to obtain the observer rating. In addition, it generally updates the manual.
******
And
*****
Para 1-2.  Concept of Training - The observer course is divided into two phases. Phase I is rather abbreviated but is designed to qualify scanner candidates in a short time to become productive members of the SAR team. Phase II is somewhat longer and more demanding. It includes some areas which may seem unnecessary to the trainee, such as knowledge of the flight computer; however, trainees should bear in mind that knowledge of these areas will be a definite asset when they begin training for mission coordinator (MC) qualification. During mission coordinator training the observer candidate's knowledge in those areas which will be frequently encountered after becoming mission coordinators. [Wow! quite the strategic vision].
***********

Mike

It may have existed in regs but I never heard the term from the time I joined in '77 until at least 1992 and I believe sometime after. And I was heavily involved in ES in those years including participation in several region SARCOMPs. 

[SarDragon]

I still don't understand the MS qual.

Basically a way for someone training to be an Observer to get into the air and get some "hands on" experience.

To expand on that, it reduces the volume of flow coming out of the fire hose of information. Splitting the task set allows new people to work their way into the front seat at a more comfortable rate. Flying in the back lets the scanner get familiar with the MO job gradually, instead of throwing the entire crap ton of tasks out there, saying "learn this", and then throwing him into the front seat right out of the chute.

When I first qualified as an MO, back in the '70s, the typical aircrew had two  pilots up front, and the MO never got out of the back seat. With the new setup, non-pilots start in the back (MS) with an initial skill set, and then move up front (MO) after learning the second skill set. That's also why an MP needs to be an MS first, so he's familiar with what's going on in the back and right seats.

[flyboy53]

So, you’re sitting in the back seat while the guy up front is working the radios, GPS and DF.

That would make you … wait for it now… the scanner.

The Mission Observer is a scanner with expanded duties who usually sits in
the right front seat. In addition to the primary duty of scanning while in the search
area, the observer assists the pilot with planning, navigation, and communication.
The observer may also serve as mission commander, ensuring that all mission
objectives are met. Source: Civil Air Patrol Mission Aircrew Reference Text, Revision 1, February 2008

Was I the only one paying attention in class.......

[Майор Хаткевич]

So, you're sitting in the back seat while the guy up front is working the radios, GPS and DF.

That would make you ... wait for it now... the scanner.

The Mission Observer is a scanner with expanded duties who usually sits in
the right front seat. In addition to the primary duty of scanning while in the search
area, the observer assists the pilot with planning, navigation, and communication.
The observer may also server as mission commander, ensuring that all mission
objectives are met. Source: Civil Air Patrol Mission Aircrew Refernce Text, Revision 1, February 2008

Was I the only one paying attention in class.......

^+1

Seems a lot of pilot types think that since a pilot can handle radios, why not just replace the observer with an MP. Of course that's where the disservice to our mission comes, because those MPs are there for the flying, not the scanning...

[Flying Pig]

Interesting discussion this has become.  Where I work, all pilots start as tactical flight officers (TFO)  So a pilot has already worked, and is an experienced Observer.  Although we dont staff two pilot crews very often, usually its done to cover vacations, etc, there are often times where the pilot and observer are both qualified high time pilots and also very experienced observers. Never has been an issue.

What is important is knowing what role your occupying. 

[JeffDG]

So, you're sitting in the back seat while the guy up front is working the radios, GPS and DF.

That would make you ... wait for it now... the scanner.

The Mission Observer is a scanner with expanded duties who usually sits in
the right front seat. In addition to the primary duty of scanning while in the search
area, the observer assists the pilot with planning, navigation, and communication.
The observer may also server as mission commander, ensuring that all mission
objectives are met. Source: Civil Air Patrol Mission Aircrew Refernce Text, Revision 1, February 2008

Was I the only one paying attention in class.......

^+1

Seems a lot of pilot types think that since a pilot can handle radios, why not just replace the observer with an MP. Of course that's where the disservice to our mission comes, because those MPs are there for the flying, not the scanning...

I take exception to that.

I'm a pilot who is also an observer.  When I'm acting as the observer, I'm acting as the observer.  Other than helping the pilot run checklists pre-takeoff if requested, I'm really disinterested in the flying.

OK, on a highbird with an airborne repeater, I'll happily fly...because the Observer's job is rather boring on such flights!  But on any kind of low-level flight (search, route survey, etc.), I'm too [darn]ed busy doing my observer stuff to even think about the yoke in front of me.

[Майор Хаткевич]

You are not one of those who do then. But most of the complaints that pop up are typically because of the MP > All others attitude. Go figure...

[flyboy53]

So, you’re sitting in the back seat while the guy up front is working the radios, GPS and DF.

That would make you … wait for it now… the scanner.

The Mission Observer is a scanner with expanded duties who usually sits in
the right front seat. In addition to the primary duty of scanning while in the search
area, the observer assists the pilot with planning, navigation, and communication.
The observer may also serve as mission commander, ensuring that all mission
objectives are met. Source: Civil Air Patrol Mission Aircrew Refernce Text, Revision 1, February 2008

Was I the only one paying attention in class.......

^+1

Seems a lot of pilot types think that since a pilot can handle radios, why not just replace the observer with an MP. Of course that's where the disservice to our mission comes, because those MPs are there for the flying, not the scanning...

It shouldn't matter if there are two MPs in front and an observer or scanner in the back or one of each on a crew. The whole thing is that it is one crew. The most important part is the safe execution of the sortie and the safe return of the crew; with every member of that crew having certain integral responsibilities instrumental to the safe and successful outcome of the flight. There also shouldn't be an us vs them mentality.

When I first earned my observer rating in 1972, (I still have that pair of "droop" wings) there wasn't such a thing as a scanner and you still sat in the back of the plane. The oddest thing I remember from that time was a requirement to hold a Red Cross First Aid Card -- pilots didn't need one. Since then, I have seen so many observers that were specialized in certain areas, like SDIS, Archer, aerial photographer, Surrogate Predator, and the few radiological monitors who are still out there. I see the rating as less and less search and rescue and more a jack of all trades doing just about anthing you could think about in terms of missions. Sometimes I've even wondered if they would revive the stewardess rating that there once was....ever see that badge. It's a pilot's badge with only one wing.

That's also why it shouldn't matter where you're sitting in the airplane. Observers are still basically scanners.

So I think those of us who have earned the rating need to take pride in our accomplishment and endeavor to be as professional as possible an aircrew member, all the while striving for that star or wreath and star above our wings. When I finally earned my senior rating, 29 years had passed from the first time; and I had to go through the process of requalifying. The goal was worth wait.

[JeffDG]

You are not one of those who do then. But most of the complaints that pop up are typically because of the MP > All others attitude. Go figure...

The aircrew each has a job...pilots are primarily bus drivers, the observer is responsible for the overall mission, while the scanner gets to get sick because he's riding in the back and doesn't have a good reference to the horizon while bouncing around in the turbulence, but decides on his own to be "brave" and not say anything...

[Flying Pig]

Then Im a raging coward!  I was a back seat lightweight!!

[JeffDG]

Then Im a raging coward!  I was a back seat lightweight!!

Drove me nuts...I was feeling it up front once, and got my head out the front window and established a horizon...kept asking the scanner "You OK back there?"  and kept answering "Yep, fine"...then got quiet...

Fortunately, I turned to the pilot and said "OK...time to RTB....and step on it..."

That scanner got a bit of a lecture about being brave in the future...it's a helluva lot better to land, get squared away and relaunch than it is to have to clean up!

[jeders]

Then Im a raging coward!  I was a back seat lightweight!!

Drove me nuts...I was feeling it up front once, and got my head out the front window and established a horizon...kept asking the scanner "You OK back there?"  and kept answering "Yep, fine"...then got quiet...

Fortunately, I turned to the pilot and said "OK...time to RTB....and step on it..."

That scanner got a bit of a lecture about being brave in the future...it's a helluva lot better to land, get squared away and relaunch than it is to have to clean up!

That's why I always carry multiple sick sacs in my flight suit pocket.

[davidsinn]

I guess I have a strong constitution. I've flown back seat of the airvan in MVFR on a photo recon run on targets that were at best a mile apart. Ground track looked like a bowl of spaghetti Didn't even feel queasy.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I've never got airsick, but on a training mission some years ago I was Scanner and my unit CC was Observer.

Our pilot had been (I think) an O-1 FAC in Vietnam and flew like it...there were times I was sure our wings were perpendicular to the ground.

When we got on the ground, my CC asked me "Is your stomach still with you?"

[PHall]

Two things to take with you when you're flying in the grid.
Saltine crackers, they help settle the stomach.
Kitchen trash can bags, in case the crackers don't work. Plus they hold a lot and have a nice big opening so you just about can't miss.

[AirDX]

Remember, too, that Mission Scanner is a qualification that didn't exist until what 10-15 years ago(?). Before that you had a MP and everybody else in the aircraft was an observer.

I was a scanner in 1987, so at least 25 years.  I suspect longer.

[SarDragon]

I, too, have been a back seat lightweight.

Sick sack - quart zip lock bag, with a paper towel in the bottom. The bag opening will fully cover your mouth, but keep your nose out, to keep from smelling it, and the towel helps soak up the liquid. I keep two in the leg pocket of my flight suit.

Anti-nausea - ginger tablets or gum. Take before you fly, so it's already in your system before you get into the high maneuver part of the flight.

[jeders]

Anti-nausea - ginger tablets or gum. Take before you fly, so it's already in your system before you get into the high maneuver part of the flight.

I usually try to drink a cup of ginger tea before I fly, though sometimes I'm not able.

[Flying Pig]

Ive found a breakfast burrito and a bowl of oatmeal is best.  The eggs in the burrito are light weight, and the oatmeal acts like glue and keeps it all together when you barf!!

I tell me passengers, observers, whoever, that at the slightest hint of feeling sick, tell me NOW and we are done.  Getting airsick has nothing to do with your manhood.   We had a Deputy lose it in the back of the helo once.  All over our FLIR computer, AeroComputer mapping computer.  The clean up bill was about $7000.  So please, you being tough can cause some serious heartache.   Not to mention your taking an aircraft out of service indefinitely.  Because Im not flying Barf-Force-One, I dont care who the mission is for!

[vento]

Bananas work well too, they taste about the same going down and coming up. 

[sardak]

Remember, too, that Mission Scanner is a qualification that didn't exist until what 10-15 years ago(?). Before that you had a MP and everybody else in the aircraft was an observer.

I was a scanner in 1987, so at least 25 years.  I suspect longer.

1975. The hstory was posted earlier in the thread  http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=14922.msg269322#msg269322  But it was mentioned that scanner didn't seem to be emphasized back then as much as it is now.

Mike