NIMS compliance

[floridacyclist]

Does CAP have an official stance on NIMS compliance? I'm in class here at NETC and we've been having some very interesting conversations about various facets of this directive; at least one of our classroom members is here under pressure as his county was turned down for a grant application due to not being in compliance and they needed him to get trainer-qualified ASAP. It seems like a major portion of the training requirements would be met by adding a task or two to various SQTRs. New trainees would be required to meet the new standards and existing personnel would have to meet the new requirements in order to renew.

Based on FEMA requirements, everyone would eventually need IS100 and 700, Field Supervisors (like GTL) would need IS200, unit leaders and branch directors would need ICS300, and all command/general staff would need IS800 and ICS400 (they are already talking about eliminating the requirement for IS800 for middle management - this straight frtom the man in charge of EMI curriculum) . This isn't a comprehensive listing of our job assignments, just a representative sampling of what we would add to our SQTRs  if we played completely by their rules.

Thoughts?

[arajca]

IIRC, the NB decided in Aug that CAP needs to be NIMS compliant and has tasked the ES/OPS folks to develop a plan for this. It is something I've been advocating for about three years now.

[RiverAux]

I would bet that all our ground and aircrews will need to take ICS 100 & 700 and probably 200 & 800.  Most mission staff (except maybe MSA) will probably end up taking those and then some.  If I was an ES officer I'd start the process of talking folks into taking these classes so they can be a jump ahead. 

[arajca]

Everyone involved in ES (MRO, GTM, MS, MO, etc) would need ICS 100 and IS700. MP's, GTL's, CUL, MSA would need ICS 200 and IS 800. Directors, Chiefs, MSO, IO, LO would need ICS 300.  IC/AL would need ICS 400.

[ZigZag911]

Does FEMA (or anyone else) offer online versions of ICS 300 & 400?

[arajca]

No. Those courses require significant interaction among the student for the scenarios. Students are filling out the ICS forms, creating IAP's, evaluating clues, etc. The courses are scenario driven and about 75% of the class is hands on. The courses are similar to multi-day table top exercises with some education.

As far as I have heard, there is no plan to make ICS 300 & 400 online courses.

[isuhawkeye]

Having completed a five day TTT for 300, and 400 I must say that It is imperitive that we adopt these standards.  Our general staff could improve dramatically with teh 300 course. 

[Dustoff]

And it's not enough to just go through the course.  As I tell everybody in my 300 & 400 classes, the class is ONLY the beginning!  Unless you're involved in actively fighting wildfire, NONE OF US get enough experience using the ICS system on real incidents. 

This particularly applies at the 300 & 400 levels.  The next step after completing the classes is to start using ICS for tabletops, functionals and full-scale exercises.  Actually use it for anything you can, just for the practice.

Use it to plan your next SAREX or Wing Conference.  Hey Iowa, how about those WTA's?   

For the reasons already stated, 300 & 400 aren't on-line.  And for folks that are going to be using ICS actively, I don't recommend the on-line versions of 100, 200, 700, or 800.  You will always learn more in the classroom setting.  Your instructors (hopefully) have had some experiences in actively using ICS.  They can add that into the classroom, adding to your learning. 

I've had students attending my 300 & 400 classes who only took the on-line version of those other courses.  After they took the on-line test, they did a brain dump.  Bringing them back up to speed in 300 takes some extra work!  (By the way, that's why the 2006 version of 300 has some options for teaching Unit 2 - the review chapter)

ICS is a tool.  The more you use it, the better it will work for you.

Jim

[floridacyclist]

That's the class I'm in right now (E449) and it has been very interesting. The main thing that caught my attention was that some agencies are already being denied money for not being compliant; maybe it's something we should be paying attention to.

According to the guy that wrote most of the material, 800 should be going away for Middle Management (ie unit leaders, branch directors etc); he feels that it's just way more than anyone not on Command or General needs to know. There's also a new verion of 800 on the way out, so if you did need it, I'd just wait.

300 and 400 will probably never be offered as online courses; in fact, there are no plans to even develop federal databases for them. It is up to the state training officers to track who has those and who is qualified to teach them. I agree about not taking the online-only versions of the other courses as even when we were teaching only the online versions in a live group setting then sending them home to take the test online, folks were learning far more in the classroom settings. I hope they'll get even more out of it as we incorporate the tabletops into the training.

Yes, ICS does have to be used to get comfortable with the tools and concepts. I used it for Field Day, we will use it for our communications camp (along with any other exercises) and my 17yo even used it for his school dance. If you look at the layouts, you will realize that it's not really new; it follows a lot of the best practices of both military and business management combined with a common terminology, which is perhaps one of the biggest advantages to using it.

Some time this Spring, we (I have an assistant instructor who is a full-time college professor, ham operator, and former Air Force instructor who has probably forgotten more about teaching than most of us will learn) will probably be offering weekend ICS300 and 400 classes in Tallahassee. While I am sponsored here at NETC by CAP (or at least signed for - FEMA is paying the bills), we will probably offer the classes through ARES. Not only is it easier that way with less red tape, restrictions, and easier access to training facilities via the asst instructor, but the local chain of command does not feel that we are up to supporting any large-scale training. It will also make it easier to open the classes to other volunteer agencies so that we can have enough people for proper exercise participation. Considering that I would be one of the few if not the only volunteer instructor in this area teaching to volunteer's schedules (nights and weekends), this would be the socially responsible thing to do as well.

None of which tells me where CAP stands on this issue...the knowledgebase doesn't seem to be of much help either as they only have links to FEMA documents but at least we're trying.

[DNall]

I'd bow to the experts here & correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand it... All the ICS courses just mentioned there (100-800) are to NIMS as GES is to CAP ES right now. To actually do anything you would need to be agency certified under the standards for something like wilderness search &/or rescue. I read over those standards, and it requires a fairly simple PT test (several options, wildland pack test was on there among others). Now, I'm all for a PT test for GTMs. I got no problems making UDF 1-3 & UDF/Ldr, then bumping GTM/L up to the real deal couple things added to Ranger school kind of quals. You know very well if you do that though you're going to drop a few thousand GTMs. Personally I'd be saying they shouldn't have been out there in the first place if that's the case, but that's just me. I think we HAVE to get with the program on this stuff or we're going to increasingly fall out of the big time we used to do before 2001 got all this started & people thought we were this qualified, now they know better. It's going to be really hard selling that though. The time involved for our members is going to be more intense. They're going to have to focus on ES more or get out of the way.

I don't know, like I said, correct me if I'm wrong on this stuff. I'd like to know just where we need to get to & what we need to do along the way. A plan to get there is the easy part.

[isuhawkeye]

I know this has been hashed out a few places, but just to clarifythis is how the state of Iowa Views things

ICS 100 (Introduction to ICS, roughly 3 hour class) Is a course that should be taken by ALL emergency responders, City Works personnel, or anyone else who may fall into an emergency response role.

IS 700 (An introduction to NIMS, roughly an 3 hour class) This course outlines how ICS fits into the National Incidnt Management System.  Please note that this is not an "ICS" class.  The Incident Command system is a component of NIMS.  (Other components include JIC's, EOC's, and other aspects of response that CAP has not addressed)

ICS 200 (Basic ICS, roughly an 8 hour class) Is a course that should be taken by all front line supervisors.  If you are a team leader, a crew boss, a strike team leader, or a task force leader you need this course. 

IS 800 (The National Response plan) is for administrators, and agency heads

ICS 300 (roughly a 20 hour class) Is a course for General staff.  These are the floks who will be staff for a Type III incident, and serve as a branch director, or section chief. This course is also needed for elected officials so they now how command works for large scale events.

ICS 400 (roughly 16 more hours) Is a course for command staff.

Iowa does use the ICS system for the WTA's. heavy on the logistics section.  We have commo, medical, transportation, a food unit, and several other positions all working together to feed and house our participants.

All course times are estimates.  They can change depending upon whos ICS course you are using Currently FEMS, Coast Guard, U.S. Fire Administration, and USDA all have their own course.  I am an instructor for the Fire Administration course.

[RiverAux]

If the feds expect volunteers involved in emergency management (CAP as well as the local volunteer fire departments, SAR teams, etc) to take the upper level (300 & 400) courses they're going to have to start making it a bit easier to take.  Right now where I am they seem to be scheduling these primarily during weekdays so it will be convenient for full-time paid personnel to take, but they're going to need to start doing multiple weekend or evening courses. 

[isuhawkeye]

About 1/2 of my class was either affiliated with a volunteer entity, or they were a part of the "outreach Staff"  these staff go out to volunteer departmetns to conduct this training

[Dustoff]

Keep in mind that 300 and (especially) 400 are for middle and upper management types.  Most of the rank-and-file don't need these classes until they get promoted into those positions.

Attached are two graphics (I hope they come through - I'm kinda new at this)

They are SUGGESTED training levels from FEMA.

Many areas are also working on developing regional Incident Management Teams.  IMTs are teams of folks that have additional training and practice/experience in performing at those higher levels for more complicated incidents.  IMTs would be available to respond to your incident (at your invitation) to either help YOU function at more complex incidents (glued to your hip) or, if you feel completly over your head, to take over for you.  As the local folks, it's YOUR incident, so the choice is TOTALLY YOURS.

Jim
(teaching the FEMA courses)

[Dustoff]

WOW, those graphics came out BIG!

Wasn't expecting THAT!

     

Jim

[floridacyclist]

Thanks, those graphs were cool. Even the instructors were saving copies to their thumb drives!

Leaving at 0-dark-thirty in the morning to head back South. Skipping the interstates and taking mostly US highways through West Virginia and Kentucky to Knoxville to visit an elementary-school friend and fellow former cadet, then dropping through Western North Carolina to visit my daughter. Should be a gorgeous drive

Looking forward to getting home and putting our ICS classes together for CAP and other local volunteer organizations.

[arajca]

So, we have at least three FEMA trained ICS instructors on the board. Any others out there? Or any other program's ICS intructors (NWCG, USCG, etc)

[isuhawkeye]

Thanks for posting the graphic.  I was looking for it.

[floridacyclist]

Based on FEMA requirements, everyone would eventually need IS100 and 700, Field Supervisors (like GTL) would need IS200, unit leaders and branch directors would need ICS300, and all command/general staff would need IS800 and ICS400 (they are already talking about eliminating the requirement for IS800 for middle management - this straight frtom the man in charge of EMI curriculum) . This isn't a comprehensive listing of our job assignments, just a representative sampling of what we would add to our SQTRs  if we played completely by their rules.

I got my answer from National today on my original question. The requirements are going to pretty much follow what we outlined above, and yes we can start teaching it that way in order to try to get a jumpstart on NIMS compliance.

Everyone will pretty much need ICS100 and IS700 NIMS

Team and Unit Leaders (GTL, CUL, MO if you consider them the aircrew commander) will need 200

Branch Directors and possibly MSA (because they might be EOC staff unless they make a seperate qualification for that) would need ICS300

Command and General Staff (IC, MIO, MSO, LO, FSC, LSC, OSC, PSC, AL) would need ICS400 and IS800 NRP.

This is by no means comprehensive and definitely not authoritative. Just throwing some of the requirements together off the top of my head based on what was said today and what I know of FEMA recommendations; I could be mistaken on where some of those will land. Once I sit down with a chart of duties and requirements etc when I get home, it will probably make a lot more sense, but in the meantime we can start encouraging folks to work on meeting the NIMS standards by taking the recommended courses.

[DNall]

That's all great. No problems taking some online & a couple in-res classes, if they can work some split wknd versions out for us, fine.

What about the other stadnards for wilderness SaR & such? The ones w/ the PT requirements. Are we going to comply with those standards for operators as well, or just the basic ICS stuff?

Also, if we just do the basic ICS stuff (100-800 as required by position) is that the equiv to GES that still doesn't make you qual'd to hold that IC or even field supervisor (GTL) postion in a joint operating enviro? Cause what I really want to see eventually is a multi-agency operation w/ a CAP member standing there as as branch director or something along those lines. I know that's getting into bigger issues of who in CAP can hang at that level, but obviously some can & we need to be qualing & putting them out there for those jobs. I think that's the route to big business in a disaster. You got a PSC in CAP uniform, sayin hey you know let me makea call I'll get us some resources in here.