Flight Release Officer Training

[KarolOpelski]

Quick question:

Is there a way to complete the FRO training without going through LMS?

LMS puts certain restrictions on who can take FRO training (even though there are no restrictions in the 60-1 or the 60-3), and I need it for AOBD.

Thanks,

Karol

[stillamarine]

Quick question:

Is there a way to complete the FRO training without going through LMS?

LMS puts certain restrictions on who can take FRO training (even though there are no restrictions in the 60-1 or the 60-3), and I need it for AOBD.

Thanks,

Karol

What are the restrictions? I know I took it a while back just cause it was there and I was in a training mood.

[KarolOpelski]

Quick question:

Is there a way to complete the FRO training without going through LMS?

LMS puts certain restrictions on who can take FRO training (even though there are no restrictions in the 60-1 or the 60-3), and I need it for AOBD.

Thanks,

Karol

What are the restrictions? I know I took it a while back just cause it was there and I was in a training mood.

There are a couple.

Specific to my question is membership status. I have a cadet member that wants to take it, but the training module says that cadet members don't have access to it. None of the regulations confirm this, and I know of a cadet that has completed it (he won't tell how though).

[EMT-83]

Too bad cadets don't have their own program to follow. Oh, wait..

[KarolOpelski]

Too bad cadets don't have their own program to follow. Oh, wait..

This is exactly why I didn't say the specific nature of the situation--because of people like you.

Listen, I'm not a cadet, but I really don't care what they do. If they're qualified, let them in. If you don't have an answer to my question, please leave.

[Eclipse]

If they are "cadets", they aren't "qualified".

[KarolOpelski]

If they are "cadets", they aren't "qualified".

Citation?

I'm looking for a reg that says cadets can't' do FRO training or a way for them to do it, not comments like this.

[CAPDCCMOM]

Hey Mods, can we please click this one.  We seem to have a new arrival wanting to stir up a brouhaha,  and I am fresh out of popcorn. Much obliged y'all

[Eclipse]

https://missions.capnhq.gov/ops/dot/school/fro/frop2.cfm


The FROs are CAP senior members designated in writing as Flight Release Officers by the region or wing commander,

Further to that, considering both the critical nature of FROs, and most wings' conservative posture about who is
appointed as such, I can imagine why it would be necessary, nor considered a good idea to allow a cadet to be an FRO,
outside a very small lane during an academy or similar and only under supervision.

[KarolOpelski]

https://missions.capnhq.gov/ops/dot/school/fro/frop2.cfm


The FROs are CAP senior members designated in writing as Flight Release Officers by the region or wing commander,

Further to that, considering both the critical nature of FROs, and most wings' conservative posture about who is
appointed as such, I can imagine why it would be necessary, nor considered a good idea to allow a cadet to be an FRO,
outside a very small lane during an academy or similar and only under supervision.

Thank you. This is part 1 of what I am looking for. This very helpful.

This pertains specifically to the second part of the FRO process. First you get the training done, then you get appointed by the Wing Commander. (Kinda like Skills Evaluator appointments). For the AOBD and PSC quals, only the training is required, and not the appointment.

This gives me specific proof (even if not regulational or current) that cadets cannot  be appointed as FROs, but it does not actually say whether they should be able to do the training.

[KarolOpelski]

Hey Mods, can we please click this one.  We seem to have a new arrival wanting to stir up a brouhaha,  and I am fresh out of popcorn. Much obliged y'all

In case you didn't notice, I'm actually just trying to get a question answered.

This question isn't random either. Three days ago, a cadet in NYWG got his PSC approved. I want to know how that was possible.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Why don't you look at the requirements for Planning Section Chief? 

There is no age requirement. Nothing in there says "Has to be a senior member." Just to "be Ground Branch Director."

However there is age requirement for Ground Branch Director.

The biggest requirement is "To be at least 18 years old."

I think I know the cadet you are talking about. I am not going into more specifics because I would give too much info on this public forum, but I assure you this cadet has earned his Planning Section Chief since he has his Ground Branch Director and is above 18 years old.

Believe me, an FRO responsibilities are much more complex than Ground Branch Director. If NHQ had published in CAPR 60-3 that "Only senior members can make Planning Section Chief..." or "Only senior members can become Ground Branch Directors..." this New York cadet would not have become PSC and GBD.

Not the case with FRO.

Your cadet has to be a senior member. You can say "You are not a senior member therefore you do not meet qualifications" then quote the section number from the reg given above. Period.

[KarolOpelski]

Why don't you look at the requirements for Planning Section Chief? 

There is no age requirement. Nothing in there says "Has to be a senior member." Just to "be Ground Branch Director."

However there is age requirement for Ground Branch Director.

The biggest requirement is "To be at least 18 years old."

I think I know the cadet you are talking about. I am not going into more specifics because I would give too much info on this public forum, but I assure you this cadet has earned his Planning Section Chief since he has his Ground Branch Director and is above 18 years old.

Believe me, an FRO responsibilities are much more complex than Ground Branch Director. If NHQ had published in CAPR 60-3 that "Only senior members can make Planning Section Chief..." or "Only senior members can become Ground Branch Directors..." this New York cadet would not have become PSC and GBD.

Not the case with FRO.

Your cadet has to be a senior member. You can say "You are not a senior member therefore you do not meet qualifications" then quote the section number from the reg given above. Period.

I understand that there is absolutely nothing in the regs about an age requirement for PSC. I am not disputing this cadet's quals.

What I am looking for, however, is how he got those quals. eServices will not let any cadet attempt the FRO training (which is a requirement for PSC, and this cadet has).

If you know this cadet personally, maybe you could get an answer from him, but the person that contacted me about this said he was very resistant to talking about it.

[Luis R. Ramos]

As I said I will not talk about this cadet anymore nor will I ask him as you suggested.

Are you sure that MIMS will stop cadets from taking this online class and test? Did you see the actual online response? Are you sure it was not the cadet's age?

Because there was nothing in CAPR 60-1 Sect. 2.5 stating about being a cadet or senior in order to take the training. It is when naming one that "must be a senior member."

[Eclipse]

but the person that contacted me about this said he was very resistant to talking about it.

Maybe because it's none of your (or the other person's) concern?

If members in the chain are concerned, they will have access to this cadet's SQTR, can see who approved FRO, and if they
have standing, ask how that was completed.

[KarolOpelski]

As I said I will not talk about this cadet anymore nor will I ask him as you suggested.

Are you sure that MIMS will stop cadets from taking this online class and test? Did you see the actual online response? Are you sure it was not the cadet's age?

Because there was nothing in CAPR 60-1 Sect. 2.5 stating about being a cadet or senior in order to take the training. It is when naming one that "must be a senior member."

Yes. LMS prevents anyone with a cadet membership status from taking the test apparently, no matter the age. The fact that it's not in a regulation is what makes it so weird.

[KarolOpelski]

but the person that contacted me about this said he was very resistant to talking about it.

Maybe because it's none of your (or the other person's) concern?

If members in the chain are concerned, they will have access to this cadet's SQTR, can see who approved FRO, and if they
have standing, ask how that was completed.

Precisely why I came here--that specific qual is none of my concern, but I want to replicate it with some of my cadets.

[Huey Driver]

but the person that contacted me about this said he was very resistant to talking about it.

Maybe because it's none of your (or the other person's) concern?

If members in the chain are concerned, they will have access to this cadet's SQTR, can see who approved FRO, and if they
have standing, ask how that was completed.

Precisely why I came here--that specific qual is none of my concern, but I want to replicate it with some of my cadets.

The relevant task is simply "Complete Flight Release Officer Training". It doesn't state that the member need be qualified as a FRO - only that they've received the training, which is the case of the cadet PSC. But as the training module isn't available to us cadets, this training was done through a senior member. How, you ask? I wouldn't know, but a qualified FRO/SET put their credentials on the line to validate that this cadet received the training.

Although, there was no evaluator CAPID submitted in this case...

[KarolOpelski]

but the person that contacted me about this said he was very resistant to talking about it.

Maybe because it's none of your (or the other person's) concern?

If members in the chain are concerned, they will have access to this cadet's SQTR, can see who approved FRO, and if they
have standing, ask how that was completed.

Precisely why I came here--that specific qual is none of my concern, but I want to replicate it with some of my cadets.

The relevant task is simply "Complete Flight Release Officer Training". It doesn't state that the member need be qualified as a FRO - only that they've received the training, which is the case of the cadet PSC. But as the training module isn't available to us cadets, this training was done through a senior member. How, you ask? I wouldn't know, but a qualified FRO/SET put their credentials on the line to validate that this cadet received the training.

Although, there was no evaluator CAPID submitted in this case..

Correct. In this case, it says that it was submitted through MIMS; meaning that the training was taken either through LMS or another eServices-linked module. I don't there's even a CAPID box on that task.

[Eclipse]

Your best option here is to send a message to the Knowledgbase or the Operations Directorate in this regard.

[jeders]

but the person that contacted me about this said he was very resistant to talking about it.

Maybe because it's none of your (or the other person's) concern?

If members in the chain are concerned, they will have access to this cadet's SQTR, can see who approved FRO, and if they
have standing, ask how that was completed.

Precisely why I came here--that specific qual is none of my concern, but I want to replicate it with some of my cadets.

Then you should really be talking to the Ops personnel in your wing to make sure that they even want to allow it.

[Shieldel]

I have no reg to stand on (I learned my lesson yesterday I think it was) however I personally don't see the point in a cadet doing FRO training to begin with. At minimum if memory serves, you need FRO for AOBD at the minimum/soonest. AOBD is restricted to 21+, therefore Seniors Only, which I think is where this whole "FRO is Senior only" thing is coming from

EDIT FOR CLARIFICATION: Reviewed the SQTR. Actually there is no Age Requirement in the AOBD SQTR. Only need to be an MO or MP. So theoretically an 18+ "Senior Cadet" (18-21 cadets) as an aircrew member COULD do FRO. But it's up to your local command to approve or disapprove I'd say. As the FRO SQTR is literally one task "Just complete the training" it's up to your home command to decide if they'll let you or not

[KarolOpelski]

but the person that contacted me about this said he was very resistant to talking about it.

Maybe because it's none of your (or the other person's) concern?

If members in the chain are concerned, they will have access to this cadet's SQTR, can see who approved FRO, and if they
have standing, ask how that was completed.

Precisely why I came here--that specific qual is none of my concern, but I want to replicate it with some of my cadets.

Then you should really be talking to the Ops personnel in your wing to make sure that they even want to allow it.

Ops personnel said they didn't care, but that they didn't know about the membership restriction in LMS. In other words, they really weren't helpful.

I tend to agree with Eclipse here. I'm probably just going to have to go to NHQ to resolve this.

[KarolOpelski]

I have no reg to stand on (I learned my lesson yesterday I think it was) however I personally don't see the point in a cadet doing FRO training to begin with. At minimum if memory serves, you need FRO for AOBD at the minimum/soonest. AOBD is restricted to 21+, therefore Seniors Only, which I think is where this whole "FRO is Senior only" thing is coming from

EDIT FOR CLARIFICATION: Reviewed the SQTR. Actually there is no Age Requirement in the AOBD SQTR. Only need to be an MO or MP. So theoretically an 18+ "Senior Cadet" (18-21 cadets) as an aircrew member COULD do FRO. But it's up to your local command to approve or disapprove I'd say. As the FRO SQTR is literally one task "Just complete the training" it's up to your home command to decide if they'll let you or not

That would make sense, and I would have to problems with that. However, FRO training isn't in person: it's on LMS.

Basically, eServices made its own little rule that cadets can't do it. The same way Vanguard can make a rule about uniforms without anything in the regs to back it up (and look how we roast Vanguard for it).

Also, you can get PSC without AOBD, so while you are correct in saying that AOBD is the lowest qual with an FRO training requirement, it isn't technically the "soonest" one would ever need it.