Chaplain Problem

[Spike]

Well, I have a CAP Chaplain at my unit.  The Air Force has requested his assistance and we followed the channels by having the Base Wing Chaplain request the support from the CAP Wing Chaplain, and it was approved all the way up National until this evening when I received an email stating that my Chaplain is not allowed to provide support to the Air Force because "he does not meet AF style Uniform weight standards".  The letter directed me to the following paragraph...

ALL CAP Chaplain Corps assistance will utilize only those chaplains who conform to the weight and grooming standards specified in CAPR 39-1 and are otherwise able to wear the Air Force style uniform properly. Only the authorized Air Force style uniforms are to be worn while performing CAP Chaplain Corps assistance to the military.

http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/CCOP_2009001_5F578288215A2.pdf

What the crap.  I was told that CAP has already found an AF-style uniform wearing Chaplain form 150 miles away who will be happy to come and provide the assistance.

This is a slap in the face to my Chaplain, and ME.  I hope I don't lose this fine Officer over this!

[RiverAux]

This shouldn't have been a surprise .... it is in the regulation. 

I do find it odd that in this case of direct support to the AF we require the wear of the AF style uniform while in the VSAF program they're going exactly the opposite direction.

[Eclipse]

This is a slap in the face to my Chaplain, and ME.  I hope I don't lose this fine Officer over this!

No, this is called...the rules.

If he joined to provide augmentation to the USAF, he's missing the point, anyway.  That's a "once-in-awhile" "nice-to-have", not the main mission of the Chaplain Corps.

If this was an "after-the-fact" surprise, someone isn't paying attention.

[Spike]

^ I do blame myself, just wanted to point out how ridiculous this rule is.  Since the Chaplain Corps is a detail rich monster in terms of regs and policies, I never took the time to read them closely.  As Squadron Commander, I did have other things that needed my attention more.  However, I think this was a setup because, how would National know this guys weight?  I think they pulled this play card to hook up a friend, and an IG complaint is on the way up tomorrow. 

[Pylon]

how would National know this guys weight?

Most members have it listed right in E-Services.

I think they pulled this play card to hook up a friend, and an IG complaint is on the way up tomorrow. 

From my armchair here, I'd say there exists no basis for an IG complaint, if the guy doesn't actually qualify by the regulations.  Those are the rules and the IG ensures enforcement of the rules, not what people deem to be "fair".

[Eclipse]

Does he meet weight or not?  If not, don't waste the IG's time because you won't get anywhere.

These are USAF rules, we have no leeway in them, and they are understandable, since the Chaplains are one of the few places a
CAP member can serve an identical role to active USAF, so they have to be at least passable in a uniform.

[RiverAux]

Frankly, I'm most surprised that NHQ was detailed oriented enough to check on this, evidentally by pulling up the members records and checking it against the height-weight chart.

[Spike]

^ They passed word to my Wing Commander last Thursday, he just emailed Sunday evening. 

I just feel sorry for the guy because he was looking forward to it, and he is an excellent orator and pastor. 

I jumped to quick, and most likely will not send the IG complaint.  Everyone here is right, the rules are the rules.  I did not even know that document existed.  I called my Group Chaplain who worked with my Chaplain and the Wing Chaplain to get this CAP and AF approved. 

I will still accept responsibility, it is MY Squadron. 

[Eclipse]

Do we have to hug now?

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

This is unfortunate, but not unexpected.

I had no idea how closely CAP Chaplains were connected to the USAF until we actually had a Chaplain in my first squadron.  The guy was a corker; Presbyterian minister, also qualified as Observer, Comms...we were real sorry to lose him when he got a call to another church.

From what I remember him telling me from about 15 years ago, he had to meet the same standards as a Chaplain in the AF/ANG/AFRES if he wanted to augment them.  That included both ecclesiastical and uniform requirements.  I don't know if he ever actually did augment, but I think he asked the Wing Chaplain to let the Chaplains of the ANG and AFRES units in the wing know that he was available.

Conversely, the Wing Chaplain at that time was also a great guy and well-qualified, but he did not meet AF H/W standards, and hence wore white/greys.  I doubt he would have been able to augment, but he did a bang-on job as Wing "skypilot."

I don't know the statistics on how often, or to what extent, CAP Chaplains augment the Air Force/ANG/AFRES, but I don't believe it's very frequent.

In fact, this former Chaplain told me that he was considering checking into being a Chaplain in the ANG/AFRES so he could be more directly involved, but again, I don't know if he ever did.

[DogCollar]

Boy...the title of this thread had me worried for a moment!   The AF is pretty strict with Chaplains needing to meet the HW and Grooming standards before assisting with their spiritual support needs.  Oh well...at least it is incentive for me to continue to watch my weight...just in case.  Although, I've never been asked in the 4 years I have been a member.

[PHall]

Boy...the title of this thread had me worried for a moment!   The AF is pretty strict with Chaplains needing to meet the HW and Grooming standards before assisting with their spiritual support needs.  Oh well...at least it is incentive for me to continue to watch my weight...just in case.  Although, I've never been asked in the 4 years I have been a member.

Do the Chaplains in the National Guard/Reserve units near you know that you are available? Have you touched base with them?

[Gunner C]

Well, I have a CAP Chaplain at my unit.  The Air Force has requested his assistance and we followed the channels by having the Base Wing Chaplain request the support from the CAP Wing Chaplain, and it was approved all the way up National until this evening when I received an email stating that my Chaplain is not allowed to provide support to the Air Force because "he does not meet AF style Uniform weight standards".  The letter directed me to the following paragraph...

ALL CAP Chaplain Corps assistance will utilize only those chaplains who conform to the weight and grooming standards specified in CAPR 39-1 and are otherwise able to wear the Air Force style uniform properly. Only the authorized Air Force style uniforms are to be worn while performing CAP Chaplain Corps assistance to the military.

http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/CCOP_2009001_5F578288215A2.pdf

What the crap.  I was told that CAP has already found an AF-style uniform wearing Chaplain form 150 miles away who will be happy to come and provide the assistance.

This is a slap in the face to my Chaplain, and ME.  I hope I don't lose this fine Officer over this!

Would it hurt anyone's salvation if a chaplain has more than one chin?  But the chaplain corps has a strange way of looking at things.  Could this be a bit of "sell the sizzle and not the steak?"  IMO they're worrying about the wrong thing here.  But it's their regulation and their sandbox. 

I hope your chaplain understands.

[lordmonar]

Well...that argument can be used toward any of CAP's uniform issues.

The USAF does not care how professional we are, but we got to look good in their uniform.

The CAP Chaplain program has always been a special case....because they can be called on to directly support USAF operations and so hold the members who answer that call to a higher standard.

Not saying it is right or wrong....just the way it is.

[RiverAux]

The CAP Chaplain program has always been a special case....because they can be called on to directly support USAF operations and so hold the members who answer that call to a higher standard.

In the past that argument, might have been true, but with VSAF members being told to wear civilian clothes rather than any of the military style uniforms, that no longer seems to be the case.   Granted the VSAF uniform is inappropriate for most things Chaplains would be used for by the AF (funerals, for example), but if the VSAF "uniform" is the wave of the future, expect Chaplains to be officiaciting in the CAP blazer in the future...

[lordmonar]

I don't think you can compare the VSAF support with the Chaplain support.  Also you have to see that they are two seperate programs controlled by two seperate organisation.

Finally I don't think the VSAF program or its uniform is the wave of the future.

[RiverAux]

You're the one that said that augmenting the AF was the reason they were in AF uniforms, I was just pointing out that we've got other folks augmenting the AF being directed NOT to wear the AF uniform, so your argument fails. 

VSAF certainly is the wave of the future as far as CAP augmentation of the AF goes.  Wasn't implying that it was going to become a major part of CAP life.

[RADIOMAN015]

I don't think you can compare the VSAF support with the Chaplain support.  Also you have to see that they are two seperate programs controlled by two seperate organisation.

Finally I don't think the VSAF program or its uniform is the wave of the future.

You know it's funny you bring that up, because I remember in my AF career that at times the AF would use contract or maybe volunteer chaplain auxiliaries that would fill in from the local community/region, when a particular denomination could not be supported at the base chapel.

Perhaps CAP again needs to get out of the "wanna bee" business of wearing USAF style uniforms and basically let the chaplains wear the CAP business suit attire.   Many religions wear vestments anyways and you don't even see the uniform.

Somehow I think that CAP could get this policy changed (which is probably what CAP agreed to without comprise in the first place).

Remember that we are the CIVIL Air Patrol.  We don't have to wear AF style uniforms at any other AF mission support function.  The AF should be happy there's chaplains willing to volunteer their services without adding the AF uniform, weight, & grooming requirements.  I think you will fine those "contract" chaplains don't meet those standards
RM   

[DogCollar]

Boy...the title of this thread had me worried for a moment!   The AF is pretty strict with Chaplains needing to meet the HW and Grooming standards before assisting with their spiritual support needs.  Oh well...at least it is incentive for me to continue to watch my weight...just in case.  Although, I've never been asked in the 4 years I have been a member.

Do the Chaplains in the National Guard/Reserve units near you know that you are available? Have you touched base with them?

Yes is the short answer.  The wing chaplain has communicated with all the guard and reserve units in Virginia about the availability of CAP Chaplains.  However, as there are a plethora of military bases in eastern and northern Virginia, were most of the guard and reserve units are attached, AD chaplains are generally available.  In our neck of the woods, there always seems to be AD chaplains available.

[DogCollar]

Well, I have a CAP Chaplain at my unit.  The Air Force has requested his assistance and we followed the channels by having the Base Wing Chaplain request the support from the CAP Wing Chaplain, and it was approved all the way up National until this evening when I received an email stating that my Chaplain is not allowed to provide support to the Air Force because "he does not meet AF style Uniform weight standards".  The letter directed me to the following paragraph...

ALL CAP Chaplain Corps assistance will utilize only those chaplains who conform to the weight and grooming standards specified in CAPR 39-1 and are otherwise able to wear the Air Force style uniform properly. Only the authorized Air Force style uniforms are to be worn while performing CAP Chaplain Corps assistance to the military.

http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/CCOP_2009001_5F578288215A2.pdf

What the crap.  I was told that CAP has already found an AF-style uniform wearing Chaplain form 150 miles away who will be happy to come and provide the assistance.

This is a slap in the face to my Chaplain, and ME.  I hope I don't lose this fine Officer over this!

Would it hurt anyone's salvation if a chaplain has more than one chin?  But the chaplain corps has a strange way of looking at things.  Could this be a bit of "sell the sizzle and not the steak?"  IMO they're worrying about the wrong thing here.  But it's their regulation and their sandbox. 
I hope your chaplain understands.

Well said.

[Major Lord]

Hmmmm. I am  not sure too many CAP chaplains could don their MOPP gear and run for their lives. Maybe there is more to it then just looking spiffy in uniform. Is it possible that a Chaplain who does not meet basic skills capabilities might end up being more of a liability then an asset? I can't think of too many CAP chaplains who could low crawl either....

Major Lord

[vmstan]

Being outside the uniform guidelines puts most people at an unhealthy or overweight category. I can fully understand the USAF wanting to have its members, including chaplains, to look healthy when serving with a unit. Only remedy to correct this situation for the member involved would be to drop some pounds to get within regulations.

Is it politically correct? No. No one wants to have their feelings hurt or to be called fat.
But, is it fair? Yes. Is it the regulation? Yes.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

^^Which is harder (not impossible, just harder) to do if you're getting older (I'm 44 tomorrow), on medication (ditto) and/or have something like a thyroid condition.

I look at pictures of myself at age 22, half a lifetime ago, and I was a barely-120 pound gnome.

But what Marshalus says is true about being outside guidelines being a potential indicator of poor health: obesity, heart disease, diabetes, etc.

Plus, we Americans are very good at socking away too many Big Macs and not very good at getting our kiesters out from behind the computer keyboard (I plead no contest) and walking.

[Eclipse]

I think we need to separate "fair" and "healthy" from "regulations".

The plan is the plan, and we have to work it, beyond that, its somewhat presumptuous and frankly NOYB what someone who
is volunteering to serve you for free weighs, as long as they are capable of the mission and not a danger to themselves or others.

If the USAF doesn't want fat or fuzzies saying grace, its their call.

Weight may be a factor in heart disease, but Jim Fixx died of a heart attack, so its not the only factor.

[Spike]

Being outside the uniform guidelines puts most people at an unhealthy or overweight category. I can fully understand the USAF wanting to have its members, including chaplains, to look healthy when serving with a unit. Only remedy to correct this situation for the member involved would be to drop some pounds to get within regulations.

Is it politically correct? No. No one wants to have their feelings hurt or to be called fat.
But, is it fair? Yes. Is it the regulation? Yes.

First, data changes daily on what is healthy and what is not.  Not all "overweight" people are unhealthy.  I know one CAP member who is not allowed to wear AF style, only because he is a "powerlifter" and has almost no body fat.

Second, I am not sure it is the Air Force that made this rule up.  It sounds like something CAP would do.

Third, I see FAT Airman walking around on Base everyday.  Somehow they are allowed to wear thier Air Force Uniforms. 

[Eclipse]

First, data changes daily on what is healthy and what is not.  Not all "overweight" people are unhealthy.  I know one CAP member who is not allowed to wear AF style, only because he is a "powerlifter" and has almost no body fat.

Third, I see FAT Airman walking around on Base everyday.  Somehow they are allowed to wear thier Air Force Uniforms.

That's something else we need to get on the table - realigning CAP's standards with USAF's standards.
I've seen plenty of heavy airman and Army people lately as well.  We need to have the option for body fat and / or physical task based
standards like they do.

I'm not going to pretend there aren't far too many in CAP who have trouble getting out of a chair, let alone taking any kind of physical,
but fair-is-fair, and if the USAF is going to allow for people who shop at the "husky" gentlemen's store to wear blues, we should have that option as well - as long as we can do the job.

[Fuzzy]

Perhaps whoever wrote the regulation made it under several assumptions. Just what I can think of off hand.

1. That USAF personal would relate to and understand CAP Chaplains better if they wore the same uniform and resembled their active duty counterparts.

2. The mission had a unique opportunity to represent CAP to Air Force personnel and a positive appearance was desired.

3. The mission was considered uncommon enough not to seriously detract from not USAF style wearing CAP chaplains.

4. USAF would probably require or did require USAF style uniforms, for similar reasons

Dunno, just my thoughts.

[Spike]

1. That USAF personal would relate to and understand CAP Chaplains better if they wore the same uniform and resembled their active duty counterparts.

Yeah, because it is easier to worship when the guy giving the sermon is in something that ALMOST looks like what you are wearing??  Most likely not a reason, if it were those Airman seeking spiritual guidance need to stop at the Base Psychiatrist after Church. 

[DogCollar]

Second, I am not sure it is the Air Force that made this rule up.  It sounds like something CAP would do.

http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/CCOP_2009001_5F578288215A2.pdf

This is the CAP Chaplain Corps guidelines for Chaplains performing roles for AD, Reserves and Guard.  Within, Ch. Col Woodard cites AF regulations as the reason for the H/W and grooming requirements.

[Spike]

Second, I am not sure it is the Air Force that made this rule up.  It sounds like something CAP would do.

http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/CCOP_2009001_5F578288215A2.pdf

This is the CAP Chaplain Corps guidelines for Chaplains performing roles for AD, Reserves and Guard.  Within, Ch. Col Woodard cites AF regulations as the reason for the H/W and grooming requirements.

All I see are educational requirements the Air Force mandates of CAP Chaplains.  I see nothing that says "The Air Force mandates CAP Chaplains be in Air Force Style".

[DogCollar]

Second, I am not sure it is the Air Force that made this rule up.  It sounds like something CAP would do.

http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/CCOP_2009001_5F578288215A2.pdf

This is the CAP Chaplain Corps guidelines for Chaplains performing roles for AD, Reserves and Guard.  Within, Ch. Col Woodard cites AF regulations as the reason for the H/W and grooming requirements.

All I see are educational requirements the Air Force mandates of CAP Chaplains.  I see nothing that says "The Air Force mandates CAP Chaplains be in Air Force Style".

3rd paragraph under Air Force Criteria.

[davidsinn]

Second, I am not sure it is the Air Force that made this rule up.  It sounds like something CAP would do.

http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/CCOP_2009001_5F578288215A2.pdf

This is the CAP Chaplain Corps guidelines for Chaplains performing roles for AD, Reserves and Guard.  Within, Ch. Col Woodard cites AF regulations as the reason for the H/W and grooming requirements.

All I see are educational requirements the Air Force mandates of CAP Chaplains.  I see nothing that says "The Air Force mandates CAP Chaplains be in Air Force Style".

3rd paragraph under Air Force Criteria.

No where in the AFI is that stated. In this case the AFI is the only one that truly matters.

[DogCollar]

Second, I am not sure it is the Air Force that made this rule up.  It sounds like something CAP would do.

http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/CCOP_2009001_5F578288215A2.pdf

This is the CAP Chaplain Corps guidelines for Chaplains performing roles for AD, Reserves and Guard.  Within, Ch. Col Woodard cites AF regulations as the reason for the H/W and grooming requirements.

All I see are educational requirements the Air Force mandates of CAP Chaplains.  I see nothing that says "The Air Force mandates CAP Chaplains be in Air Force Style".

3rd paragraph under Air Force Criteria.

No where in the AFI is that stated. In this case the AFI is the only one that truly matters.

It is under a section of the memorandum that is headed Mandated By Air Force Chaplain Corps.  I have no reason not to believe that this was a concern that was directly communicated by the Air Force Chaplain Corps to the CAP Chaplain Corps.

[davidsinn]

Second, I am not sure it is the Air Force that made this rule up.  It sounds like something CAP would do.

http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/CCOP_2009001_5F578288215A2.pdf

This is the CAP Chaplain Corps guidelines for Chaplains performing roles for AD, Reserves and Guard.  Within, Ch. Col Woodard cites AF regulations as the reason for the H/W and grooming requirements.

All I see are educational requirements the Air Force mandates of CAP Chaplains.  I see nothing that says "The Air Force mandates CAP Chaplains be in Air Force Style".

3rd paragraph under Air Force Criteria.

No where in the AFI is that stated. In this case the AFI is the only one that truly matters.

It is under a section of the memorandum that is headed Mandated By Air Force Chaplain Corps.  I have no reason not to believe that this was a concern that was directly communicated by the Air Force Chaplain Corps to the CAP Chaplain Corps.

Just because it's in our pub and says that doesn't make it so. The AF Chaplain Corp must follow their own AFI. If it's not there then it isn't so.

[Spike]

It is under a section of the memorandum that is headed Mandated By Air Force Chaplain Corps.  I have no reason not to believe that this was a concern that was directly communicated by the Air Force Chaplain Corps to the CAP Chaplain Corps.

The only thing that remotely looks as though it was mandated was the AF publications.  Seems to me that CAP Chaplain made the rule. 

Once again our written regulations fail the organization.  A simple, easy to understand regulation would work.  Heck, this is a "letter".  We are too dependant on operating on "Letters" in CAP today.  This stuff MUST stop. 

[RogueLeader]

^ write the recommendation and send it up.

[Gunner C]

Second, I am not sure it is the Air Force that made this rule up.  It sounds like something CAP would do.

http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/CCOP_2009001_5F578288215A2.pdf

This is the CAP Chaplain Corps guidelines for Chaplains performing roles for AD, Reserves and Guard.  Within, Ch. Col Woodard cites AF regulations as the reason for the H/W and grooming requirements.

All I see are educational requirements the Air Force mandates of CAP Chaplains.  I see nothing that says "The Air Force mandates CAP Chaplains be in Air Force Style".

3rd paragraph under Air Force Criteria.

If CAP chaplains need to be in AF uniforms to support AF needs, why don't aircrews need to be in AF uniforms to support AF needs, whether in VSAF, ES, or whatever.

Baloney meter is pegged here.

[Spike]

If CAP chaplains need to be in AF uniforms to support AF needs, why don't aircrews need to be in AF uniforms to support AF needs, whether in VSAF, ES, or whatever.

Baloney meter is pegged here.

Agreed!

[bosshawk]

Why do you guys continue to expect either CAP or AF regs to agree across regs and pubs?  Or with each other?  In 17 yrs in CAP, I have never seen this and don't expect to see it in the next 17.  In some cases, I see no agreement in separate paragraphs in the same reg.

[Gunner C]

Point!

[Chappie]

This is item 12 in the Memorandum of Agreement signed by the Chief of the USAF Chaplain Corps and the Chief of CAP Chaplain Corps on 27 October 2009:

12. When providing chaplain assistance to military forces, qualified CAP chaplains will conform to the weight and groorning standards of CAPR 39-1 and wear the appropriate Air Force style uniform (including service dress, long-sleeved and short-sleeved blue shirt with or without tie/tab, BDU and ABU) with distinctive CAP identification and insignia. No other uniforms are authorized.

End of story.

[Short Field]

Chappie, you are not being fair posting facts and references instead of opinions and speculations. 

[Chappie]

Chappie, you are not being fair posting facts and references instead of opinions and speculations.

On a personal note...I have been a CAP Chaplain since 1996 and proud to be a CAP Chaplain.  Due to my lack of an 72 hour seminary degree from an accredited academic institution, I was granted a waiver for my appointment (CAP provides for that -- CAPR 265-1).  This precludes me from serving as a "force-multiplier" for the USAF Chaplain Corps.  Even though I have completed the Senior Member Professional Development Program (GRW #2095) and have served at every level of CAP in one capacity or another in the Chaplain Corps, there are no exceptions to rule set forth by the USAF Chaplain Corps and followed by the CAP Chaplain Corps.   Would I like to be able to serve as a "force multiplier"?  Sure, there is an USAF Base about 1 1/2 hours drive for me.  But am I crushed that I can't.  No...I am first and foremost a Chaplain in the Civil Air Patrol and have enjoyed and continue to enjoy every opportunity of service to our members that is afforded me.

[lordmonar]

If CAP chaplains need to be in AF uniforms to support AF needs, why don't aircrews need to be in AF uniforms to support AF needs, whether in VSAF, ES, or whatever.

Baloney meter is pegged here.

Apples and oranges. 

A CAP member in his blue flight suit with his extra weight, long hair and beard flying at 2000 ft is not the same as a CAP Chaplain at a USAF Chapel doing pastoral services. 

To use the USAF spin on it.

Some jobs require you to submit a full length photo and they can nix your application if you "don't look good" even if you are within USAF standards.  (MTIs, MTLs, PME Instructors, recruiters, etc).  Image for them is more important than it is for some guy turning wrenches on the flight line.

[Gunner C]

I didn't see chaplains on there.

[Spike]

This is item 12 in the Memorandum of Agreement signed by the Chief of the USAF Chaplain Corps and the Chief of CAP Chaplain Corps on 27 October 2009:

12. When providing chaplain assistance to military forces, qualified CAP chaplains will conform to the weight and groorning standards of CAPR 39-1 and wear the appropriate Air Force style uniform (including service dress, long-sleeved and short-sleeved blue shirt with or without tie/tab, BDU and ABU) with distinctive CAP identification and insignia. No other uniforms are authorized.

End of story.

Link please.  I just can not find what you are referencing. 

[Chappie]

This is item 12 in the Memorandum of Agreement signed by the Chief of the USAF Chaplain Corps and the Chief of CAP Chaplain Corps on 27 October 2009:

12. When providing chaplain assistance to military forces, qualified CAP chaplains will conform to the weight and groorning standards of CAPR 39-1 and wear the appropriate Air Force style uniform (including service dress, long-sleeved and short-sleeved blue shirt with or without tie/tab, BDU and ABU) with distinctive CAP identification and insignia. No other uniforms are authorized.

End of story.

Link please.  I just can not find what you are referencing.

Your Wing or Region Chaplain should have a copy of it.   I know that it is not on the CAP Chaplain Corps page as of it.  Unfortunately I can't upload a .pdf here.

[DogCollar]

Chappie, you are not being fair posting facts and references instead of opinions and speculations.

On a personal note...I have been a CAP Chaplain since 1996 and proud to be a CAP Chaplain.  Due to my lack of an 72 hour seminary degree from an accredited academic institution, I was granted a waiver for my appointment (CAP provides for that -- CAPR 265-1).  This precludes me from serving as a "force-multiplier" for the USAF Chaplain Corps.  Even though I have completed the Senior Member Professional Development Program (GRW #2095) and have served at every level of CAP in one capacity or another in the Chaplain Corps, there are no exceptions to rule set forth by the USAF Chaplain Corps and followed by the CAP Chaplain Corps.   Would I like to be able to serve as a "force multiplier"?  Sure, there is an USAF Base about 1 1/2 hours drive for me.  But am I crushed that I can't.  No...I am first and foremost a Chaplain in the Civil Air Patrol and have enjoyed and continue to enjoy every opportunity of service to our members that is afforded me.

You and I have never met face to face, but I do believe that you are what every CAP Chaplain should aspire to.  You have been selfless, profressional and, above all, faithful to your calling, to CAP and to it's Core Values!! 

You have been extremely generous to me personally by passing along the wisdom you have gained in your many years of service.  I hope that someday that we do get to meet face to face and I get to salute you and shake your hand!! 

I know what the regulations say about needing the 72 credit hour M.Div., but, it's still the AF's loss!

[Spike]

This is item 12 in the Memorandum of Agreement signed by the Chief of the USAF Chaplain Corps and the Chief of CAP Chaplain Corps on 27 October 2009:

12. When providing chaplain assistance to military forces, qualified CAP chaplains will conform to the weight and groorning standards of CAPR 39-1 and wear the appropriate Air Force style uniform (including service dress, long-sleeved and short-sleeved blue shirt with or without tie/tab, BDU and ABU) with distinctive CAP identification and insignia. No other uniforms are authorized.

End of story.

Link please.  I just can not find what you are referencing.

Your Wing or Region Chaplain should have a copy of it.   I know that it is not on the CAP Chaplain Corps page as of it.  Unfortunately I can't upload a .pdf here.

That is one more item that needs correcting.  Why is it not on the Chaplains page?  It is most likely an important document.  My Wing Chaplain unfortunately does not use a computer and is very "old".  I doubt he even knows of the documents existence. 

[Chappie]

This is item 12 in the Memorandum of Agreement signed by the Chief of the USAF Chaplain Corps and the Chief of CAP Chaplain Corps on 27 October 2009:

12. When providing chaplain assistance to military forces, qualified CAP chaplains will conform to the weight and groorning standards of CAPR 39-1 and wear the appropriate Air Force style uniform (including service dress, long-sleeved and short-sleeved blue shirt with or without tie/tab, BDU and ABU) with distinctive CAP identification and insignia. No other uniforms are authorized.

End of story.

Link please.  I just can not find what you are referencing.

Your Wing or Region Chaplain should have a copy of it.   I know that it is not on the CAP Chaplain Corps page as of it.  Unfortunately I can't upload a .pdf here.

That is one more item that needs correcting.  Why is it not on the Chaplains page?  It is most likely an important document.  My Wing Chaplain unfortunately does not use a computer and is very "old".  I doubt he even knows of the documents existence.

I am sure that it will find its way there one of these days    Unfortunately, the updating of the web-site does not receive the attention it deserves.   I will pass along the need for its posting.   The document was sent out via e-mail to Region Chaplains on 11/11/09.    Most, if not all Region Chaplains forwarded it to the Wing Chaplains. 

[Chappie]

This is item 12 in the Memorandum of Agreement signed by the Chief of the USAF Chaplain Corps and the Chief of CAP Chaplain Corps on 27 October 2009:

12. When providing chaplain assistance to military forces, qualified CAP chaplains will conform to the weight and groorning standards of CAPR 39-1 and wear the appropriate Air Force style uniform (including service dress, long-sleeved and short-sleeved blue shirt with or without tie/tab, BDU and ABU) with distinctive CAP identification and insignia. No other uniforms are authorized.

End of story.

Link please.  I just can not find what you are referencing.

Here is a link where you can find the signed Memorandum of Agreement between the USAF Chaplain Corps and the CAP Chaplain Corps:   http://hc.pcr.cap.gov/downloads/MOA_Signed.pdf

This is the first time in the 60 year history of the CAP Chaplain Corps that such a document has existed.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

If CAP chaplains need to be in AF uniforms to support AF needs, why don't aircrews need to be in AF uniforms to support AF needs, whether in VSAF, ES, or whatever.

I agree, but I think the AF is very skittish on that for several reasons.

We are all (CAP) officers, and with as little as the AF seems to know about us  , I think they're trying to prevent "rank conflicts."

An Airman fresh out of Lackland being intimidated by a CAP 2LT who has no authority to give orders, and indeed may not be trying to, but just the presence of those gold bars on said young Airman...

The seemingly-odd situation of a CAP LTC being directed by an AF SMSGT

And, unfortunately, the hopefully very isolated instances of CAP officers trying to pull rank we don't have on USAF personnel.

The USCGAux gets around this by having its membership remove the bars, leaves, chickens and stars when they augment and replace the insignia with the CG Auxiliary crest.

A possible solution for us might be replacement of our grade insignia with the plain grey epaulette while augmenting the USAF, as directed by the AF unit commander.

[Spike]

^Not my Quote, but I will take the credit if you wish 

I can see your argument, but it is null if a Chaplain (who happens to be a CAP Captain) is dressing in AF style, and is 75 years old.  Wouldn't those same "fresh" Airman find it way confusing as well?

There are instances when CAP Officers do take lead of groups that have AF members in them.  When family day rolls around on Base in the summer each year, one of my CAP Officers is the OIC, and is supported by the Services Squadron and its Enlisted members.  His directions carry the authority of the Base Commander who made him OIC. 

Nothing falls apart, moral does not suffer, and we head up an awesome MWR/ Family support group week.  It has been that way since 1996.  On Base, CAP is known for its augmentation role.  Like I always say, don't wait for the Air Force to come to you for help, go offer your help.